Are the pensioners untouchable?

Kess73 · 26-09-2012 11:14AM

These would be the same OAPs who as younger folk had to put up with massive unemployment, wage cuts, rises in the cost of living etc the last time this country went tits up in a recession?

Seems to me that they did take the cuts in a big way back then, and would be right imho to say that the main thrust of the current fight should mostly fall at the feet of younger generations.

ballsymchugh · 26-09-2012 11:14AM

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

No way should pensions or old peoples income be touched. You think this is the first economic crisis the country has faced? In the 80s my dad paid nearly half his wages on income tax. His entire wages went on tax, feeding us and the mortgage. Disposable income wasn't even part of the equation. He did nixers to pay for Christmas presents. So the older generation may not have taken a hit during this recession but they sure paid enough over their lifetime. Why should they take a hit for the 20 year old who took loans and mortgages out beyond their means?

In your retirement after contributing so much to the economy, yes I think you should be cut some slack and to cut their allowances is just stingey money grabbing greed.

agree 99%, the only thing i'd differ on is that your father probably paid more tax than that. the high rate in the 80's was 60% (according to wiki, i thought it was higher.

ejmaztec · 26-09-2012 11:21AM

Some are very well off. An accountant was telling me that during one of the tax amnesties he advised one of his old lady clients, that she should own up to the 750,000 that she had stashed away, but she refused on the grounds that it would affect her pension.

eviltwin · 26-09-2012 11:24AM

Kess73 wrote: »

These would be the same OAPs who as younger folk had to put up with massive unemployment, wage cuts, rises in the cost of living etc the last time this country went tits up in a recession?

Seems to me that they did take the cuts in a big way back then, and would be right imho to say that the main thrust of the current fight should mostly fall at the feet of younger generations.

Why?

Wouldn't it make more sense for the cuts to be made where they can be afforded rather than take away vital services like health/education to protect bus passes or take money from people who are already struggling

Elfinknight · 26-09-2012 12:07PM

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

No way should pensions or old peoples income be touched. You think this is the first economic crisis the country has faced? In the 80s my dad paid nearly half his wages on income tax. His entire wages went on tax, feeding us and the mortgage. Disposable income wasn't even part of the equation. He did nixers to pay for Christmas presents. So the older generation may not have taken a hit during this recession but they sure paid enough over their lifetime. Why should they take a hit for the 20 year old who took loans and mortgages out beyond their means?

In your retirement after contributing so much to the economy, yes I think you should be cut some slack and to cut their allowances is just stingey money grabbing greed.

I agree. I remember my parents in the 80s. my father was working 12 hours a day 6 days a week to keep a roof over our heads and my mother who would be taking care of the accounts getting stressed.

As I heard someone saying once, the government would very much like you to stay good and healthy and pay your taxes until you retire, and then have the good grace to die.

The majority of O.A.P.s have paid their income tax through out their working lives and now should be left to reap the benefits of a hard working life, rearing all of us and probably in a lot of cases still helping out their kids.

I hope those of you who advocate making cuts to the pensioners remember your comments when your turn comes around. I cannot believe that you have forgotten the sacrifices our parents made for us growing up.

Sleepy · 26-09-2012 12:12PM

No one's benefits should be touched.
All taxes should be done away with.

How would we afford this?

Use the last of our funds to build a gigantic deathmatch arena somewhere in the midlands (Keynesian Stimulus) and then throw in every person who's held a Dail seat for the last 30 years. The TV rights (and licensing the format) should more than cover our problems

fishy fishy · 26-09-2012 12:17PM

if you think that people nowadays that are in their 20's and 40's have to work hard, then god help ye if ye were working forty or fifty years ago. now THAT was hard work. Leave the pensioners alone - they deserve a bit of comfort in their old age. They worked for it.

suicide_circus · 26-09-2012 12:23PM

conorhal wrote: »

I'd stop reading David McWilliams if I were you, he's a spoofer and that 'wealth transfer' is largely a myth. The young we buying houses in new developments and tiny apartments in Priory Hall. The wealth transfer occured between young professionals buying and selling apartments to each other largely on loans from the banks, which promptly went bust translating all that wealth into a national debt.
The wealth transfer occured, not intergenerationally, but between housebuyers to a very small wealthy elite and the banks.

The statistic you are quoting is largely based on the fact that pensioners have not seen the rapid decline in wealth that 'the negative equity generation' have, in fact with deflation factored in they may have seen a small wealth increece, but I see no reason to punish the financially prudent for the proflagacy of others. It's immature to expect mummy and daddy to bail you out.

Never read David McWilliams but your probably right in the rest of what you say except i don't advocate punishing the financial prudent. Rather i suggest the elderly not be totally cocooned from the reality of the countries situation while our young, our future are completely thrown to the wolves.

eviltwin · 26-09-2012 12:26PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

if you think that people nowadays that are in their 20's and 40's have to work hard, then god help ye if ye were working forty or fifty years ago. now THAT was hard work. Leave the pensioners alone - they deserve a bit of comfort in their old age. They worked for it.

Normally I would agree but when we are in the situation we are in we have to take what we can where we can. I don't want to see any elderly person go hungry or cold but there are areas that can be touched. I know my elderly family members could well afford to take a hit and would probably be happy to do so.

starbelgrade · 26-09-2012 12:34PM

OAPs don't really need much to live on. A typical weekly spend for a pensioner is as follows:

- Box of teabags
- Bale of briquettes
- 2 packets of custard creams
- Packet of Johnnie Blues
- Pint of Milk
- A half sliced pan
- 4 small tins of peas

€50 a week would easily cover that.

Tigerandahalf · 26-09-2012 12:36PM

I think the pension will have to be cut. It is becoming clear that some pensioners are living in a bubble and think they are immune to any cuts. A letter in the Indo todays sums it up well. Yes people in the 80s had it tough but who is to say that the young generation today wont go through one or even two more bad recessions before they retire. You can only tax people so much. It is all about affordability now not about fairness or the past. It is how the most taxes can be squeezed out of everybody. Many pensioners also backed FF to the hilt at election time having been bought by FF. They have to take some responsibilty now for the mess we are in.
Whether the gov have the guts is another thing. I have no doubt that people worked hard and are entitled to a decent retirement but working people cant be squeezed all the time. A retired public servant would have a greater pension than the income of a public servant starting out. It is unsustainable.

suicide_circus · 26-09-2012 12:46PM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Many pensioners also backed FF to the hilt at election time having been bought by FF. They have to take some responsibilty now for the mess we are in.

Very good point.

whatdoicare · 26-09-2012 12:52PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

OAPs don't really need much to live on. A typical weekly spend for a pensioner is as follows:

- Box of teabags
- Bale of briquettes
- 2 packets of custard creams
- Packet of Johnnie Blues
- Pint of Milk
- A half sliced pan
- 4 small tins of peas

€50 a week would easily cover that.

Jaysus, anyone trying to live on bread, tea, biscuits and peas all week would probably be dead by Christmas or would seriously be hoping for it!

Elfinknight · 26-09-2012 12:56PM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I think the pension will have to be cut. It is becoming clear that some pensioners are living in a bubble and think they are immune to any cuts. A letter in the Indo todays sums it up well. Yes people in the 80s had it tough but who is to say that the young generation today wont go through one or even two more bad recessions before they retire. You can only tax people so much. It is all about affordability now not about fairness or the past. It is how the most taxes can be squeezed out of everybody. Many pensioners also backed FF to the hilt at election time having been bought by FF. They have to take some responsibilty now for the mess we are in.
Whether the gov have the guts is another thing. I have no doubt that people worked hard and are entitled to a decent retirement but working people cant be squeezed all the time. A retired public servant would have a greater pension than the income of a public servant starting out. It is unsustainable.

You are correct there.

It seems to be the natural order of things that we have booms and busts in a cyclic fashion.

And when this recession is finished and we go back in to good times, it will be again followed by another bust.

The difference will be that when the next one hits, all going well, the O.A.P.s will be us, and if we let the precedent be set now, we will be the target then.

Will you gladly take a hit when you are retired, after spending your life working hard paying your taxes and levies and charges.

I for one would not

swimming in a sea · 26-09-2012 12:57PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

Some are very well off. An accountant was telling me that during one of the tax amnesties he advised one of his old lady clients, that she should own up to the 750,000 that she had stashed away, but she refused on the grounds that it would affect her pension.

If you were to take a zero off that figure, i would have some sympathy for pensioners like that. Say i had a nice nest egg of 75k, could this mean I'd get less of a pension? than my neighbour who spent his 75k on holidays and good living over the years.

If it was undeclared income etc like above well then fare game, but if you've saved your income(tax paid) and now they want to tax you again or limit your pension well that's not on.

Kess73 · 26-09-2012 01:00PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Why? Wouldn't it make more sense for the cuts to be made where they can be afforded rather than take away vital services like health/education to protect bus passes or take money from people who are already struggling

I just don't think that cuts for OAPs is the way to go. There are plenty of them that would suffer badly if there was a cut to the pension or a cut to things like their fuel allowences or bus passes.

They have paid higher rates of tax when they were younger compared to the modern rates, they have already had to take harsh cuts in the 80's recession and in earlier ones.

So now people want to hammer them again when many of them are just getting by on their pensions, not to mention many who are on the verge of losing their job pensions thanks to various governments eating into the pension funds like what has happened to ex Aer Rianta workers.

There are plenty of other areas that should see harsh cuts before pensioners imho. One good place to start would be the massive expense allowances/pensions that various local councillors, TDs etc all over this country get.

Tigerandahalf · 26-09-2012 01:07PM

As I said in my post it is not about fairness now. It is about what can be squeezed from people. Working people have little more to give. Pensioners will have to play their part. Some pensioners are v well off. It is high time that people were means tested. Some pensioners in Ireland are only 55 years of age. How can the system pay out pensions to people who will get a pension for probably more years than they have worked. If young people can survive on 188 a week there is a big gap between that and 230 a week. A 20 eur cut would be affordable with a 10 eur cut this year followed by the same in 2013.

golden lane · 26-09-2012 01:13PM

there are many way the problems can be solved (short, long and medium term)..but starting at the pensioners is not a very good idea....yes, they will have to pay their share of the burden...but, they are only a very small part of that burden....

Geuze · 26-09-2012 01:17PM

Anecodotal evidence - a pensioner couple known to me.

Gross pension income, plus some small wages = 900-1000 pw
Tax = low, maybe 10%

Two medical cards, even when one person was <65
Two travel passes

Household Benefits Package, "free schemes" = cheaper telecom, elec and free TV licences

300k on deposit

That situation is not sustainable

Kess73 · 26-09-2012 01:17PM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

As I said in my post it is not about fairness now. It is about what can be squeezed from people. Working people have little more to give. Pensioners will have to play their part. Some pensioners are v well off. It is high time that people were means tested. Some pensioners in Ireland are only 55 years of age. How can the system pay out pensions to people who will get a pension for probably more years than they have worked. If young people can survive on 188 a week there is a big gap between that and 230 a week. A 20 eur cut would be affordable with a 10 eur cut this year followed by the same in 2013.

A hell of a lot of people surviving on that €188 a week are being helped out by elderly parents on the €230 a week.

A €20 cut may not sound like much, but for some it would be the difference between having a lifestyle where you are just about surviving and one where you go hungry on certain days or their house stays colder for longer.

Maybe if cuts came in that were based on means testing it would be fairer, but a set cut across the board would have a terrible impact on the less well off. I feel the same way about social welfare cuts and medical cuts. If certain cuts are not means tested then the worst off get that bit closer to true poverty.

Tigerandahalf · 26-09-2012 01:23PM

There is also an issue with the amount of retirees who continue to draw a salary. In fairness some have had their pensions wiped out but others with guaranteed pensions in the private and public sector are continuing to draw a salary elsewhere.

DebDynamite · 26-09-2012 01:34PM

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Yes people in the 80s had it tough but who is to say that the young generation today wont go through one or even two more bad recessions before they retire. You can only tax people so much. It is all about affordability now not about fairness or the past. It is how the most taxes can be squeezed out of everybody.

Exactly. Most women of my generation will have to raise a family AND work full-time, whereas most of my friends mothers (and my own for a time), who are now pensioners (or not far off), were housewives.

The pensioners seem to think they were the only ones who had it tough.

muppetkiller · 26-09-2012 01:41PM

I have very little issue with taxing people with double pensions. Old age Pension and Retirement pensions. Especially Those who would've worked in the Public Sector with massive retirement pensions (Politicians... etc)

Reduce the old age pension by 50% for those on Retirement Pensions where the household takes in a grand a week (and own their own home).

Menas · 26-09-2012 01:52PM

What everyone here seems to agree on is the point of fairness.
It is not fair that young people who had no hand in the boom should pay the burden thru lower benefits and social welfare but this is what happened.
It is not fair that most of those from 30-60 who never grossly benefited from the boom should have to pay higher taxes and get less services but this is what happened.
It is not fair that SOME pensioners have pensions larger than a lot of tax payers salaries but this is what is happening.
But it is also not fair to expect everyone else to pay.

The point of fairness is that all those in society who can afford to must take a hit thru increased taxes, reduced services and reduced handouts from the state. The key here is to identify what can be cut and from whom.
For me that includes pensioners of all types.
Bottom rung – those with no other sources of income than the €230 a week or savings should have their core pension protected but fringe benefits need to be looked at.
Those with other sources of income or savings should be means tested and state pension and benefits allocated accordingly.

Regarding what will happen to us when we hit pension age (ie about 90)? Well, I for one will not be assuming that this gracious state of ours will be able to look after us and so have been contributing to a pension plan for years – hard as it is most months when it is a struggle to pay bills.

suicide_circus · 26-09-2012 03:48PM

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Well, I for one will not be assuming that this gracious state of ours will be able to look after us and so have been contributing to a pension plan for years – hard as it is most months when it is a struggle to pay bills.

Ah yeah, private pension scheme, 100% safe.

mickrock · 26-09-2012 04:15PM

I wouldn't mind a go on Helen Mirren.

Menas · 26-09-2012 04:15PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Ah yeah, private pension scheme, 100% safe.

It is a much better bet than hoping that the state will look after you. A well diversified fund will always make money, even during a recession.

suicide_circus · 26-09-2012 04:19PM

Trigger Happy wrote: »

It is a much better bet than hoping that the state will look after you. A well diversified fund will always make money, even during a recession.

do you sell pensions?

Menas · 26-09-2012 04:21PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

do you sell pensions?

No, I am an IT geek!

3ndahalfof6 · 26-09-2012 04:29PM

young cohorts working longer and harder,,,,, I do believe I might be in with the chance of collecting the 1 million offered to prove paranormal is real,

I just taped my grandfather pissssing his hole laughing (from the other side).

Are the pensioners untouchable?

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