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Multi Role Aircraft

  • 14-09-2012 08:01AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭


    Came across this article in the Daily Fail

    http://forbesblog.dailymail.co.uk/2012/09/theres-money-for-defence-there-always-was-part-3.html

    Basically it pans the Tornado ( and the Typhoon ) , saying that trying to build a mil aircraft for multi roles just does not work.

    Part of the article mentions how a well designed aircraft that is designed for a role may actually fall into another role by accident

    Thinking about this , I instantly thought of the Canbarra , which I am led to believe became one of the best Photo Recon aircraft even though it was designed as a bomber.

    I remember the RAF buying the F4J's as a stop gap , I have some photo's somewhere of them at Wattisham

    What do people think , can you think of any aircraft DESIGNED as a multirole which actually filled this with success ? I am struggling TBH

    "Jack of all trades , master of none" comes to mind


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 826 ✭✭✭newcavanman


    The F-4 was the best example of an aircraft that could multi role, in its day . After that i think the next one to do as well was the F-18C, but likely the best overall is the F-15E . It can bomb the **** out of anything, and hold its own against nearly all comers in the air to air role .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭Nforce


    F-16 is a true muti role a/c too. From air defence,ground attack,CAS,SEAD etc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    Few enough aircraft have been designed from the outset as truly multirole and you are probably right that most which were designed to meet multiple service requirements were compromised to a greater or lesser degree. As for types which evolved into multirole aircratft, the Hunter, Mosquito and Ju-88 also come to mind. The F-104 also served for many years as a fighter, PR and attack aircraft. How it would have fared in a real conflict was never seriously put to the test.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 10,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    I thought that the F-4 was an aircraft that was foisted on the USAF as multi role. They did not want multirole. Hence the way the F-15/F-16 were designed, they did not want these aircraft to be desirable for the Navy. Multirole meant making concessions to Naval needs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭Storm 10


    Davidth88 wrote: »

    What do people think , can you think of any aircraft DESIGNED as a multirole which actually filled this with success ? I am struggling TBH


    F-15e.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 10,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Storm 10 wrote: »
    F-15e.

    Wrong. The F-15 was designed from the outset as a purely air dominance fighter. The designer team (Pierre Spey famously stated "not a pound for air to ground") used the John Boyd theories on energy mgmt for dog fighting and did not want to have any deviation from this. The Navy needed strike aircraft and if the proposed F-15 was multi role then the USN would try to encroach on a USAF project.

    It just so happened that the F-15C/D airframe was so good that it was very easy to develop it into the F-15E Strike Eagle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 826 ✭✭✭newcavanman


    i think the truth is, that the USAF were just mad, that the navy had come up with a better fighter than anything the air force had . The F104 was going to be their main fighter but it really was just a rocket with a man at the front . I loved to see them fly, but as a combat aircraft i think they were poor except as point defenders . As far as im concerned, muti role is , not being able to operate equally from land or carriers, but rather, being able to operate air to air or air to ground roles equally


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭Storm 10


    Tenger wrote: »
    Wrong. The F-15 was designed from the outset as a purely air dominance fighter. The designer team (Pierre Spey famously stated "not a pound for air to ground") used the John Boyd theories on energy mgmt for dog fighting and did not want to have any deviation from this. The Navy needed strike aircraft and if the proposed F-15 was multi role then the USN would try to encroach on a USAF project.

    It just so happened that the F-15C/D airframe was so good that it was very easy to develop it into the F-15E Strike Eagle.

    The F15E is yes a derivative of the F15 series as it was designed with the motto "not a pound for air to ground" but the "E" is a stand alone aircraft, the other variants of the F15 can not do what the MudHen can.

    It can be observed to be different by its use of darker camouflage and conformal fuel tanks.

    The F15E is designed for ground attack but can perform air to air and fight its way into and out of a conflict zone.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 10,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Storm 10 wrote: »
    The F15E is yes a derivative of the F15 series.....
    .......The F15E is designed for ground attack but can perform air to air and fight its way into and out of a conflict zone.

    I agree with you here.................but the point stands that the airframe was designed for air to air only. The excellence of the design lent itself very well to altering the design to make the F-15E the magnificent combat aircraft that it is today. While the E model differs quite a lot from the F-15C/D model I can't see the case for calling it a different aircraft. The E was not designed as multi role, the USAF/McDD took an existing aircraft and developed into a multi-role all weather fighter/bomber/interceptor.

    T compare we can look at the evolutionary redesign of the F/A-18 Hornet into the F/A-18E/F/G series. The Super Hornet WAS designed as a multi-role aircraft. It replaces tanker/strike/electronic warfare/CAP aircraft. (EG the F/A-18G carries AAM defensive armament and can be easily modified into full combat config if needed)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    Well, when you look at the Tornado, they ended up with a strike aircraft and then mutated it to be an alleged fighter/interceptor and it was found to be unable to cope with modern fighters. The RAF and Industry made a balls of modifying the F4 and had to lease F4s to cope with the capability gap. The RAF consistently refused to consider the F16 as a viable fighter for the RAF, despite it's NATO neighbours buying them in huge quantities and the F16 successfully evolved from the original "pure" fighter role to become a very good strike aircraft. Personally, I think they should have bought the F18 years ago and junked the Tornados.
    Multi-role is hard to achieve correctly, there's no two ways about that, but something like the F15E is about as good as you'll get.

    regards
    Stovepipe


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    The RAF and Industry made a balls of modifying the F4 and had to lease F4s to cope with the capability gap.

    The RAF's F-4Js were acquired to make up the numbers, as Phantoms had had to be deployed to the Falklands for air defence post-1982 and the Lightning force was being wound down. The Spey Phantom had some performance differences all right, but then the inclusion of British equipment/content was something that was regarded as important for the UK aero industry in the 1960s, at a time when it was contracting and no doubt Government wanted to sustain capability and jobs. It was an impressive performer, even if slightly slower than the J-79-powered versions.
    3254328966_0b0e82c8b7.jpg
    RAF F-4K Phantom FG.1 XV579 by Irish251, on Flickr


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭Davidth88


    Interesting .

    The F15 , wasn't that designed as a fighter not a MR aircraft ? Although as people say this is a role it has grown into well

    As I say I remember the F4J's being purchased by the RAF. At the time my friend was working at Conningsby , the Tornado F2 was delayed , and then was flying with a lump of concrete instead of a radar .

    I can't remember if Binbrook ( Lightnings ) were still flying at the time .

    As I say I think an aircraft that was designed FROM INCEPTION to fill multi roles that turned out to be brilliant at them all , I am struggling to think of one .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 100 ✭✭merisi


    Davidth88 wrote: »
    I am struggling to think of one .

    I think the Mirage F1 is a candidate, intended from conception to fulfill interceptor/ground attack and trainer roles. It's interesting that Dassault undertook its development as a private venture rather than as a government-funded project: perhaps this saved it from government/armed forces interference that might have compromised its design.

    It could be said that the whole Mirage programme always lent itself to multiple roles, even though the Mirage III was conceived as a supersonic interceptor. I would say that Rafale was also conceived as a proper multi-role aircraft, albeit one that has never been tested in combat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭Davidth88


    I was thinking some of the French aircraft may qualify ... or the Saabs ..... nice call merisi !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 399 ✭✭Skyknight


    Davidth88 wrote: »
    I was thinking some of the French aircraft may qualify ... or the Saabs ..... nice call merisi !

    Yeah, I had the same thought over the weekend. I just wondered if the load of the of the Sepecat Jaguar and the Viggen were such that they could be classed as true multirole aircraft. The Gippen, Rafale and Mirage 2000 are most defiantly are mulirole capable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭Davidth88


    Skyknight wrote: »
    Yeah, I had the same thought over the weekend. I just wondered if the load of the of the Sepecat Jaguar and the Viggen were such that they could be classed as true multirole aircraft. The Gippen, Rafale and Mirage 2000 are most defiantly are mulirole capable.

    Interestingly , the same guy who wrote the article I posted in the OP has published another one , in that he extols the virtue of the Jag .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭Turbulent Bill


    Tenger wrote: »
    T compare we can look at the evolutionary redesign of the F/A-18 Hornet into the F/A-18E/F/G series. The Super Hornet WAS designed as a multi-role aircraft. It replaces tanker/strike/electronic warfare/CAP aircraft. (EG the F/A-18G carries AAM defensive armament and can be easily modified into full combat config if needed)

    I thought the F/A-18 was designed from the start for both air-to-air and air-to-ground (hence "F/A")?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 10,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    I thought the F/A-18 was designed from the start for both air-to-air and air-to-ground (hence "F/A")?
    I see your point, I was of the opinion (possibly wrongly) that the F-18C was the single seat Naval fighter version while the F-18D was the 2 seater USMC attack version?

    The inital YF-17 protype had lost to the YF-16 in the Lightweight Fighter competition. The design was tweaked to fulfill the USN/USMC need for a new aircraft to replace the A-4 and A-7, it was also planned to operate alongside the F-14 in a similar way to the USAF F-15/F-16 Hi-Lo mix.
    Initially it was supposed to be built in 2 versions, the A-18 for the former role and the F-18 for the latter. However at some point both versions were blended into 1 airframe. Hence the joint designation?

    With improved pilot interface and avionics the ground attack role can be achieved with modern single seat aircraft.


    In regard to the French aircraft, I would agree. Based on the resources of the French aviation industry they can only really have 1 aircraft in development/production at 1 time. Thus I would guess that any Dassault aircraft is designed as Multi-Role, purely because the French Armee de l'Air and Navy will need to utilise it for air defense and attack.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,188 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    Just to add to this. 2 real combat missions come to mind where a fighter performed air to air and air to ground in a single combat sortie with kills from both.

    In Vietnam a flight of USN F-4Bs where on a close air support mission. Both fighters dropped 6 cluster bombs each and on the way home were jumped on by a flight of MiGs. Lt, Cunningham scored 3 kills on the MiG-17s, using 3 of his 4 AIM-9 missiles.

    In the 1990 Gulf War a flight of 4 F/A-18s on the 17th of January 1991 were tasked with bombing an airbase in Iraq. Each of the 4 fighters carried 4 900kg dumb bombs each and had 4 air to air missiles for self protection each. On the way to the target their AWACS gave them a heads up that two Iraqi fighters were vectored on to them. The flight lead Lt. Cmdr Fox split the flight up into 2 elements. He and his wingman engaged the 2 MiGs head on and got one kill each, the other 2 Hornets dropped back a few miles to act as cover. Even though the Hornets had 3,600kgs of bombs weighing them down they still managed to shoot down the attackers! Generally the flight lead would call for the bombs to be ditched before engaging in air to air combat to give them a fighting chance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 100 ✭✭merisi


    This blog from the Daily Mail is well worth reading: it discusses the recent history of British defence procurement with a particular look at multi-role aircraft, cf :Tornado, Nimrod, etc.

    http://forbesblog.dailymail.co.uk/2012/09/theres-money-for-defence-there-always-was-part-one-.html


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭muppet01


    What about the humble Herc?,
    transport,gunship,spec ops, maritime patrol, air to air tanker,artic support....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 399 ✭✭Skyknight


    muppet01 wrote: »
    What about the humble Herc?,
    transport,gunship,spec ops, maritime patrol, air to air tanker,artic support....

    You forgot drone carrier controller,AEW, Firefighter, Elecronic Warfare aircraft, and even as far as I can remember a bomber. All this it can do, just not at the same time. To accomplish some of the roles listed require the use of a variant\model, who's role can change only the smallest degree, should the situation change during the course of a mission.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The C-17 comes to mind, so does the F-35 and it's very interesting Mission X test flight where it was able to VTOL and go supersonic in one sortie.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 100 ✭✭merisi


    muppet01 wrote: »
    What about the humble Herc?,
    transport,gunship,spec ops, maritime patrol, air to air tanker,artic support....

    One of the key points made in the blog to which I linked in my previous post above was to distinguish between "multi-role" and "versatile". The C-130 was never intended to be anything other than a combat transport, but has proved itself in a variety of roles since.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 100 ✭✭merisi


    Overheal wrote: »
    The C-17 comes to mind, so does the F-35 and it's very interesting Mission X test flight where it was able to VTOL and go supersonic in one sortie.

    The C-17 certainly isn't "multi-role" in the general sense. As for the F-35, it's a very open question as to whether it will excel at anything other than air displays. My hunch is that pilots will be longing for the Super Hornet long after it has been replaced by the F-35. (If that even happens, of course.)


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 10,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    While I wholeheartily agree that the C-130 is a marvelous airframe that can be converted to many uses. It was however designed as a transport/utility aircraft so in a sense multi-role IS its role.

    I think this debate centers more on govts/companies touting fighter aircraft as 'multi-role'.


    The JSF is being touted as multi-role, but this is being built as 3 different variants. Are the individual variants multi-role? Will the F-35A be able to carry ground attacks, will the F-35B be capable in AtA? etc..... Can we treat all 3 variants as the 'same aircraft'?

    I don't think so. IMO I would class the F-15E as a separate aircraft that was developed from the F-15C. In the same vein the SU-34 ground attack aircraft (tandem seat) is a development from the original SU-27 Flanker. The Super Hornet is also a different aircraft that the original F/A-18 Hornet.
    We can see that the same basic Typhoon airframe can be used for Air to Air and Air to Ground. As can the Rafale, Gripen.
    Then you have the EF-18G Growler and the F-15E which can conceivably be multi-role in the same deployment. (SEAD and AtA/ Strike and AtA respectively)


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