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New book claims Hitler died in Argentina

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭Flincher


    Biggins wrote: »
    A number of people who were down the line connected to the Hitler family died off.
    The last one was in New York under a changed name.
    He is still buried there in an unmarked (but known location) grave.
    Previously he and others supposedly agreed not to continue the Hitler line.


    That would be an unexpected answer to the "so honey, why don't you want to have kids?" question.


    "Well, eh...you know that Hitler guy?......."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Hitler's Death The Final Report - Operation Myth


    Hitler's Escape


    Hitler in the Andes Part 1-5


    Hitler in the Andes Part 2-5


    Hitler in the Andes Part 3-5


    Hitler in the Andes Part 4-5


    Hitler in the Andes Part 5-5


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭Cosmo K


    Biggins wrote: »
    Hell, you would be better comparing Daniken's book with the bible!

    After reading the book, are you a 100% convinced that Hitler died in Argentina?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭pipie


    How could he not have been in Argentina?





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭PapaQuebec


    Cosmo K wrote: »
    Biggins wrote: »
    Hell, you would be better comparing Daniken's book with the bible!

    After reading the book, are you a 100% convinced that Hitler died in Argentina?

    Apologies for answering a question asked of someone else. After reading the book I'm convinced that the full story has yet to be told. I'm equally convinced Hitler may well have escaped Berlin and Germany.

    If the witnesses quoted in the book are truthful (the same for the documentation) then what else is there but a distinct possibilty


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭pipie


    Stalin kept Hitler's skull as an ash tray.

    That skull has been proven by DNA to be of a womans.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Cosmo K wrote: »
    After reading the book, are you a 100% convinced that Hitler died in Argentina?

    No. (Absence of a positive does NOT prove a negative)

    I am also NOT 100% convinced he died in Berlin either.

    There is unanswered truth being hid from the public by certain named governments.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    There is one other huge aspect that has not gone explained in the last days of Hitler as we know it.

    The use of his (Gustav Weber) double was used just before his masters supposed suicide by the double handing out medals (pic here), yet on the day that a shot rang out in the bunker, Gustav Weber was never found there after. He simply just vanished.

    All there was after that day, was a extreme bad charred remain of a body that looked supposedly like Hitler and Gustav Weber, known to be in the city (and remember just how hard it supposedly was to get out - as others said it would have been for Hitler too) simply was seen and heard of no more. He too disappeared for ever more as a person.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭Cosmo K


    Why is it so hard to believe, that Hitler died in Berlin? And whats that nonsense that Hitler and Eva Braun had two daughters? He never even f$cked her, did they use a sperm donor?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭Cosmo K


    Very interesting discussion with one of the authors of the book:

    http://www.ww2f.com/alternate-history/52303-grey-wolf-escape-adolf-hitler.html

    He comes across as a bit of a muppet....


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Cosmo K wrote: »
    Why is it so hard to believe, that Hitler died in Berlin?
    Simply due to lack of evidence for such a infamous evil person.

    We still have those that say Bin Laden is alive somewhere (I honestly don't know either way).
    Cosmo K wrote: »
    ...And whats that nonsense that Hitler and Eva Braun had two daughters? He never even f$cked her, did they use a sperm donor?
    Who says IF he made it out, he didn't get down and dirty with her?
    After all, he still had one testicle.
    Given his supposed improved medical condition after the war - IF true - anything is possible.

    I'm NOT saying the above is true but all things are possible.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭pipie


    Cosmo K wrote: »
    Very interesting discussion with one of the authors of the book:

    http://www.ww2f.com/alternate-history/52303-grey-wolf-escape-adolf-hitler.html

    He comes across as a bit of a muppet....

    Like this ?

    Hi thanks for your input. 55 pages, 500 footnotes, scientific proof that the man in the last pictures of Hitler with the Hitler Jugend on March 20th are not Hitler, not an antarctic base in sight, nor an UFO. 5 years of research 14 trips to Argentina.....and I've never done a conspiracy theory story in 30 years as a Television journalist.
    I hope you read it .
    All the best
    Gerrard Williams (Co-Author Grey Wolf: The escape of Adolf Hitler)

    Or this ?

    I think "preposterous fiction" is a bit harsh for a forum, but as with everyone you are entitled to your opinion. It would be nice if you waited to read it on October the 4th. There is no forensic evidence either way for the escape or suicide. But the eyewitnesses, FBI and Cia files plus considerable original research and evidence provide for what we feel is a compelling case.

    This is what our publisher's have to say about it.

    Or this,



    Low siwping like that is out of context and off topic, clearly you have a closed mind, I suggest in the interest of not letting this thread devolve into one foolish argument v another, that anyone interested in moving forward the topic "New book claims Hitler died in Argentina" does not reply to posters who are here only debase and derail the topic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭Cosmo K


    pipie wrote: »
    I suggest in the interest of not letting this thread devolve into one foolish argument v another, that anyone interested in moving forward the topic "New book claims Hitler died in Argentina" does not reply to posters who are here only debase and derail the topic.

    Derail the topic?! Because I don't believe what they are saying, I'm no longer allowed to comment? Are you serious?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭Zab


    I've flicked through some of the book and found it to be pretty unreadable.

    For instance, in the chapter "The Bunker" it says in standard font:
    Eva Braun’s double was simply perfect. Her name is unknown, but she had been trawled from the “stable” of young actresses that Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels, the self-appointed “patron of the German cinema,” maintained for his own pleasure. The physical similarity was amazing, and after film makeup and hairdressing experts had done their work it was very difficult to tell the two young women apart.
    It gives no reference for any of this so I can only surmise that the authors made it up. This is supposed to be what they're using italics for (i.e. something that has to have happened for Hitler to have gone to Argentina so they've "deduced" it to have happened.)

    They give no evidence that Weber and mystery woman were in the bunker, it simply just suits the story they're trying to tell.

    I tried to find where they debunk the eyewitness accounts of the bodies but I didn't see it, so perhaps somebody could point me at it.

    It seems Baumgart did actually say he flew Hitler to Denmark, which qualifies as evidence in my opinion. However, another account they're relying on is from Angelotty-Mackensen who said that Hitler made a 15 minute speech in Denmark to about 100 people while Angelotty-Mackensen was was "running a fever and slipping in and out of delirium". This is while Hitler is making a top secret escape which he has supposedly murdered two people to keep secret ... then gives a speech to 100 people. There doesn't appear to be accounts from any of the other 99 people supposedly present.

    Again, I'm not buying any of this. If there are holes in the Hitler-died-in-the-bunker line then there are many more holes in the Hitler-escaped-to-Argentina line. As such the former seems more likely.

    I've also noticed that a lot of the references are poor, for instance referencing and entire book rather than a paragraph or page, or the reference not adequately demonstrating the "facts" listed in the paragraph.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Zab wrote: »
    I've flicked through some of the book and found it to be pretty unreadable.

    For instance, in the chapter "The Bunker" it says in standard font:

    It gives no reference for any of this so I can only surmise that the authors made it up. This is supposed to be what they're using italics for (i.e. something that has to have happened for Hitler to have gone to Argentina so they've "deduced" it to have happened.)

    They give no evidence that Weber and mystery woman were in the bunker, it simply just suits the story they're trying to tell.

    I tried to find where they debunk the eyewitness accounts of the bodies but I didn't see it, so perhaps somebody could point me at it.

    It seems Baumgart did actually say he flew Hitler to Denmark, which qualifies as evidence in my opinion. However, another account they're relying on is from Angelotty-Mackensen who said that Hitler made a 15 minute speech in Denmark to about 100 people while Angelotty-Mackensen was was "running a fever and slipping in and out of delirium". This is while Hitler is making a top secret escape which he has supposedly murdered two people to keep secret ... then gives a speech to 100 people. There doesn't appear to be accounts from any of the other 99 people supposedly present.

    Again, I'm not buying any of this. If there are holes in the Hitler-died-in-the-bunker line then there are many more holes in the Hitler-escaped-to-Argentina line. As such the former seems more likely.

    I've also noticed that a lot of the references are poor, for instance referencing and entire book rather than a paragraph or page, or the reference not adequately demonstrating the "facts" listed in the paragraph.

    I don't necessarily agree with what I'm about to say but for the sake of debate, I'll throw it out there.

    The debunking of the bodies eventually burned can be easily found alone across the net and besides a number of documentaries made over many years, they have stuck to (where possible) matters what are connected to witness statements and documents which are on record.
    Rather than regurgitate previous matters raised by others, they have opted to add to the material already out there.
    They have it appears wish to stand on their own material.

    Maybe that is why they don't mention that a maid admitted seeing a Hitler look-alike confined to the butler's pantry prior to Hitlers death!
    Simple link example: http://tst.greyfalcon.us/mytha.html
    Other minor details of identification no doubt had to be handled with care when dealing with a double. Exact body height was very important: Eva Braun's statement regarding Hitler's Munich-based double, that he "wears built-up shoes to overcome a height difference," possibly explains the 5 cm height discrepancy of the body autopsied.
    http://just-another-inside-job.blogspot.ie/2007/04/world-was-lied-to-about-hitlers-death.html

    While Angelotty-Mackensen was sick, it didn't effect his eyesight it appears along with others along the way who also gave similar statements over time and timeline events.

    They have at times listed where material can be found (example: page 314, ref 202 where they list the exact sections within interrogation articles of a certain Nazi) exactly besides listing larger articles which further describe material in bulk which allowed context of a situation as well as exact detail.
    At listing 55 pages of links, sources, dates and names alone, considering the hundreds of pages they put together, its would be a stretch of the imagination to think they could include everything to everyone's satisfaction, in every way possible.
    The amount of source material provided over 50+ pages alone is substantial.

    Funny enough its been found that the book is very readable (not just by myself) by others and they have said this elsewhere on reviews.
    Pity your finding hard to read. This surprises me.
    Mind you, if your flicking just through sections looking for points, you will miss out on others which connect the dots as such!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭Cosmo K


    It seems like, they tried to promote their book in almost every WW2 online forum. But even the guys in WW2 forums wouldn't believe any of their claims.

    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=179706

    http://www.ww2f.com/alternate-history/52303-grey-wolf-escape-adolf-hitler.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭666irishguy


    Upon spending most of yesterday evening reading the book (quickly I might add) I have to say that this book takes very little facts and weak testimonies and goes a long way with them. It has a very boys own kind of spy story feel to it throughout. The book is very shaky in places and skips along with little detail on the most amazing details, like the description of how they quickly found the most incredible perfect double for Eva Braun. The whole book heavily relies on the fact that nobody would recall such an incredible tale, or anybody in a position to do so was conveniently 'disposed of' once they served their purpose. There is also no real proof presented on how certain details in opposition to historical views have been acquired and verified, such as the non-death of Fegelein and the key allowing factor of the story;that Bormann survived the war. Which has never been proven.

    The escape is portrayed to have been well planned in advance, and therefore I find it inconceivable that if such an escape plan was in place, proven self preserving characters like Heinrich Himmler and Goering would not have tried to avail of it or had a similar plan drawn up before attempting to negotiate peace deals or run the risk of capture. Many of the key testimonies are also quite dubious, like the soldier who was wounded on the airfield and claims Hitler shook his hand. It's hard not to wonder if he wasn't hallucinating, making it up as a tall tale or telling his captors what he thought would get him a better deal or circumstances. Likewise on the latter with the pilot who claims to have flown him out of Berlin. Worse still is the question as to why none of the 300 other men there didn't recount the tale publicly, since their chances of survival were high considering they were sure the Western Allies would be the ones to get to them. What really made me dismiss the book however, was the actual method of getting to Spain. They flew an aircraft over Allied lines and across France. I find it nearly impossible to believe that given the total destruction of the Luftwaffe and the conspicuous absence of their activity by that stage, anything as odd as a single large and rare type of transport plane as was used, getting up in the air over German held territory and not identifiable as friendly, would not have been picked up on radar and aroused suspicion as to it's mission, since it seems plausible that the Allies might have assumed the Germans might have a sting in the tail such as letting rip with the nerve gas right at the end. This whole flight succeeding is once again quickly skimmed over and put down to the skill and luck of the pilot.

    The book continues in more or less the same manner throughout. They get to Spain which would no doubt have been riddled with Allied spies and even German agents who would no doubt jump at the chance to salvage something from the war and contact the British or Americans about the operation. They reach South America and again the proof they were there is thin on the ground, (this might be expected it was Hitler) but again shaky testimonies like that from a former Croatian dictator's carpenter, who would probably be more than happy to tell a tall tale to a TV crew in exchange for a bit of cash, do little to convince. Hitler's later years are almost farcical and beyond belief in some accounts. He is observed wailing at the end of his bed with photo's of the war's aftermath scattered around him (including burned Jewish children). There is mention that he tries to take up painting again, but can't hold a brush due to parkinson's disease. The fact it is medical opinion that he would not have lived much longer than a few years after the war considering this affliction is lost on the author. Overall I think this book is an entertaining read, but it is too reliant on dead ends, incredible personal loyalty and grave silence. There's just too much sheer good luck and everything going off without a hitch to make it believable.

    As I have said in earlier posts, given the apparent nature of Hitler, I find it hard to believe he would have quietly died in a small house in the Argentine countryside without leaving behind some posthumous testimony or manifesto to be released after his death. Likewise that no death bed confessions ever emerged regarding the location of proof of this operation. It's just a proven fact that people cannot keep secrets. The final nail in the coffin for me is that I doubt that the vast Soviet intelligence machine would not have gone to the most extreme lengths available to ensure Hitler was dead and gather intelligence on any group that might have given the slightest hint otherwise.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    I think that he's still living in Chile, the helmets are a big giveaway.





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,778 ✭✭✭sebastianlieken


    WOW.... Godwin's Law is right! all it took was one post!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭666irishguy


    WOW.... Godwin's Law is right! all it took was one post!

    Christ. We are in a paradox.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭Zab


    Biggins wrote: »
    I don't necessarily agree with what I'm about to say but for the sake of debate, I'll throw it out there.

    Of course they're not standing on their own material. They don't mention the maid because that greyfalcon page can't be considered a reference for anything.

    "A-M ... it didn't effect his eyesight it appears along with others along the way who also gave similar statements over time"

    Didn't effect his eyesight? He was delirious. And who else said that they were one of the 100 witnesses to this speech? Not to mention, you haven't said why would Hitler give such a ridiculous speech to begin with.

    I do not consider it at all a stretch of the imagination that they could give proper references for everything they say. There are college students doing this daily.

    With regards to it being unreadable, I explained exactly what I meant by that. They fail to delineate between fact and fiction, and as such I don't see the book can be taken seriously.

    This is all just classic conspiracy theory stuff. You point out holes in the official story and then fabricate a complicated alternative with scant evidence that wouldn't hold up to the same scrutiny you gave the official story. Hitler must have gone to Argentina because there's some doubt to the story that he killed himself in the bunker.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 543 ✭✭✭rgmmg


    Biggins wrote: »
    At listing 55 pages of links, sources, dates and names alone, considering the hundreds of pages they put together, its would be a stretch of the imagination to think they could include everything to everyone's satisfaction, in every way possible.
    The amount of source material provided over 50+ pages alone is substantial.

    55 pages? 5 looks like an S so 55 pages = SS pages? Hardly a coincidence. :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 LadyLucky


    I don't even know why this is getting air time!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭who_me


    rgmmg wrote: »
    55 pages? 5 looks like an S so 55 pages = SS pages? Hardly a coincidence. :pac:

    It. All. Fits.

    Hitler moves to Argentina, a few decades later, even Argentina invades British territory (Falklands). It's so obvious now, I feel foolish for not spotting it before.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Zab wrote: »
    ...Hitler must have gone to Argentina because there's some doubt to the story that he killed himself in the bunker.

    There is doubt he killed himself. I think we can somewhat agree on that.
    As for Argentina, it seems to have been a major country for running to by the Nazi's.
    That don't make sure he headed that way but if he was going to pick a direction, it points a searcher in lesser wrong directions to check first.

    Do I think Hitler died in 1945 in his bunker?
    I honestly don't know.

    Do I think its a possibility that he scampered off somewhere?
    Its possible.

    I'm willing to give anyone a chance to put forth their material/research and collected interviews if only to get a fuller possible picture of a turning point in history, and not just accept only one side of a story from the winners.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    I think that he's still living in Chile, the helmets are a big giveaway.

    Not to mention the Leopard II Tanks @2:43 and the band playing the German WW2 panzerlied :eek:



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭MrCreosote


    I think there's no way we'll ever know for sure.

    But most experts believe Hitler escaped, and transmogrified into an end-of-terrace house in Wales.


    hitler-817774808.jpg


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