Dublin Used to Have the Best Mass Transit System in the World

16-09-2012 01:29PM

I wonder.....

Would it be possible to get one of them old trams onto the modern LUAS system?

I think it would if you got old bogies from the Blackpool tram lines & put them on the old ones in Howth museum.

Anyone think it's a runner?

Lone Stone · 16-09-2012 01:40PM

i never knew this, what a shocking lack of foresight.

ejmaztec · 16-09-2012 01:47PM

mike65 wrote: »

I'll throw in this incendiary thought - under "da Brits" public transport was well funded and managed (within the context of the era), once independence has been achieved no money was spent as Dev was happy to rule over a moribund economy behind high tariff walls. Everything gradually got ran down to the point where scraping whole systems was inevitable and the bumpy road given free reign, throw in planning that was based on low grade geographic spread rather than quality high density living and a coherent public transport system Dublin was doomed.

I presume that it was business as usual in the North when transportation was being screwed into the ground down here?

LivelineDipso · 16-09-2012 01:55PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

I presume that it was business as usual in the North when transportation was being screwed into the ground down here?

The Ulster Transport Authority were MUCH MUCH worse than CIE. They got so fanatical about ripping up railways they shut down the Belfast and County Down which would be like CIE shutting down the DART. They then closed the main route to Derry via large towns such as Omagh, Enniskillen, Dungannon and so on. That was the last straw and even the Stormmount Government had enough and stopped them.

mike65 · 16-09-2012 01:56PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

I presume that it was business as usual in the North when transportation was being screwed into the ground down here?

I think they probably did what so many cities did with mass transit - phased it out for cars and buses, but this discussion is about Dublin, which arguably had high enough population density in the 30s/40s/50s to maintain trams and even trains if they were not allowed to get run down (and the city not been allowed to spread like a bucket of spilt muck).

ejmaztec · 16-09-2012 01:59PM

mike65 wrote: »

I think they probably did what so many cities did with mass transit - phased it out for cars and buses, but this discussion is about Dublin, which arguably had high enough population density in the 30s/40s/50s to maintain trams and even trains if they were not allowed to get run down (and the city not been allowed to spread like a bucket of spilt muck).

It seems to me that Irish politicians have had a long history of not being able to run a piss-up in a brewery.

LivelineDipso · 16-09-2012 02:02PM

humbert wrote: »

I think people know the most of that, what's to discuss?

The average Dubliner has no idea of this.

My grandfather was still angry about what CIE did to transport in Dublin even in the 1980's. He met my grandmother who lived in Dundalk and they dated because she could get the Great Northern Train back up to Dundalk after a night out in Dublin which left Connolly after mindnight. This train was packed every night with people from Drogheda and so on going to the cienema and teathre in Dublin.

When CIE took over the service in 1960 the CIE unions refused to honour the shifts worked by the Great Norther Crews and Connolly was a ghost station after 7PM.

CIE have a shocking reputation for waging war on public transport in this country and the unions are the biggest culprit.

mikemac1 · 16-09-2012 02:06PM

LivelineDipso wrote: »

When CIE took over the service in 1960 the CIE unions refused to honour the shifts worked by the Great Norther Crews and Connolly was a ghost station after 7PM.

CIE have a shocking reputation for waging war on public transport in this country and the unions are the biggest culprit.

First you blame management and then finish by blaming the unions

Which is it? Or maybe both?

LivelineDipso · 16-09-2012 02:07PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

First you blame management and then finish by blaming the unions

Which is it? Or maybe both?

BOTH!

Two heads of the same snake when it comes to the public sector.

previous user · 16-09-2012 02:21PM

Not meaning to de-rail this thread - ahem,
but this is an interesting development related to the tramline in Howth.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/howth-tram-is-on-course-to-be-running-again-3168523.html

Guy:Incognito · 16-09-2012 02:51PM

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Dublin's image of a wee backward catholic town really only came about from the 1920's on. Before that was just like many cities in Europe.

When the British left?

EDIT. Dammit Mike.

OurLadyofKnock · 16-09-2012 03:10PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder.....

Would it be possible to get one of them old trams onto the modern LUAS system?

I think it would if you got old bogies from the Blackpool tram lines & put them on the old ones in Howth museum.

Anyone think it's a runner?

The track guage is different. The old trams were built to Irish guage 5'3" - Luas is built to international guage 4'8"

Which was the correct decision as Luas can order trams and track off the shelf - Irish Rail everything has to be custom built.

Run_to_da_hills · 16-09-2012 03:34PM

There use to be the directors tram left to rot in a field belonging to Harris Porter in Dalkey out my direction,

As kids we could see it from the road. It got vandalised and burnt in 1984 and is currently in a sad state in the transport museum in Howth. It had Waterford chandeliers and cut glass windows, wrought iron work. One of its kind in the world used only by state dignitaries.

Photo taken by a family member before it was destroyed

http://i33.tinypic.com/30cno6c.

After

http://i37.tinypic.com/2m8465x.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/28jblz9.jpg

Heres more of it after it was destroyed in Dalkey.

http://i33.tinypic.com/2lcu4hv.png

http://i38.tinypic.com/zmgpix.png

mikemac1 · 16-09-2012 04:11PM

There was a guy on Liveline, a serial entrepreneur

Smart as a whip, had a go at renting small paddle boats in Grand Canal Dock which the local skangers destroyed on him but it was still a good idea.

Anyway he has access somehow to an old tram and plans to convert it to a coffee shop on James' Luas stop

Might see some progress soon

oppenheimer1 · 16-09-2012 04:23PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

There was a guy on Liveline, a serial entrepreneur

Smart as a whip, had a go at renting small paddle boats in Grand Canal Dock which the local skangers destroyed on him but it was still a good idea.

Anyway he has access somehow to an old tram and plans to convert it to a coffee shop on James' Luas stop

Might see some progress soon

Does he only try and locate his businesses in areas full of skangers?

mikemac1 · 16-09-2012 04:27PM

Yes, if that tram is left around overnight it may meet a fiery end. Especially coming up to Halloween.

Not sure where he plans to store it

I still love the idea, very classy :cool:

oppenheimer1 · 16-09-2012 04:29PM

mike65 wrote: »

I'll throw in this incendiary thought - under "da Brits" public transport was well funded and managed (within the context of the era), once independence has been achieved no money was spent as Dev was happy to rule over a moribund economy behind high tariff walls. Everything gradually got ran down to the point where scraping whole systems was inevitable and the bumpy road given free reign, throw in planning that was based on low grade geographic spread rather than quality high density living and a coherent public transport system Dublin was doomed.

You've never heard of the Beeching Axe then? It wasn't only in Ireland that railways were closed. They closed because they were in need of upgrading and passenger numbers were falling. Trams had a serious image problem back then. Bus was cheaper to provide and more flexible.

Pilotdude5 · 16-09-2012 04:40PM

The old OSI maps are great for looking at tram lines and old rail network.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,715876,734544,7,9

charlemont · 16-09-2012 04:47PM

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,716037,734273,7,9

Fenian Army · 16-09-2012 07:45PM

snubbleste wrote: »

Sure Dublin was the second city in the globe spanning Empire at the time. It was only fitting that it had such a tram system. Now it's just a backwater in a quasi euro-federal state.

You say that as if being part of a brutal empire like that was a good thing

SEPT 23 1989 · 16-09-2012 08:01PM

I blame Ryan Tubirty and his family

Stained Class · 16-09-2012 08:38PM

Great thread, very intreresting.

Lets hope it doesn't descend into a petty politics & Brit bashing, eh?.:rolleyes:

3ndahalfof6 · 16-09-2012 08:47PM

Yes very good thread, I agree SC.

dirtyden · 16-09-2012 08:47PM

It is an interesting thread alright.

Would I be correct in saying there were tram systems in a lot of UK cities at the turn of the century? They seem to have disappeared to an extent everywhere if there was. I guess the car must be one of the main reasons? They work quite well on the continent when concentrated around city centres.

end of the road · 17-09-2012 12:14AM

imagine that, dublin had a better transport system in 1922 then it has now, so much for (bus transport being the future)

Sir Pompous Righteousness · 17-09-2012 12:39AM

Goes to show, we should have stayed in the United Kingdom. Too late to go back now. Damn gombeens ruining our fun.

Rock of Gibraltar · 17-09-2012 01:40AM

To be fair while it was an atrocious decision to get rid of the trams it wasn't a uniquely Dublin phenomenon. They were torn up all over the place, almost every major modern city in the world had trams 60 years ago, I can only think of a handful of non communist block cities that retained them; Brussels, Vienna, Amsterdam, San Francisco, there's a few Italian cities.

I'd really like to know how much of the old track in Dublin remains under all the tarmac, you can still see some it exposed in Dalkey and on Stable Lane off North Brunswick Street. Not that it's any use or anything.

edit: Here's Stable Lane: http://goo.gl/maps/fYwXH
I really like the brick road surface from back in the day that you can see there.

17-09-2012 04:01PM

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

To be fair while it was an atrocious decision to get rid of the trams it wasn't a uniquely Dublin phenomenon. They were torn up all over the place, almost every major modern city in the world had trams 60 years ago, I can only think of a handful of non communist block cities that retained them; Brussels, Vienna, Amsterdam, San Francisco, there's a few Italian cities.

I'd really like to know how much of the old track in Dublin remains under all the tarmac, you can still see some it exposed in Dalkey and on Stable Lane off North Brunswick Street. Not that it's any use or anything.

edit: Here's Stable Lane: http://goo.gl/maps/fYwXH
I really like the brick road surface from back in the day that you can see there.

I think I remember seeing some in Sutton recently when they were resurfacing beside the station.

Anyway, would it be that hard to change the bogies (the wheel bits) on the irish trams to standard? maybe get some from Blackpool's stock?

Hibbeler · 17-09-2012 04:43PM

Was there ever any plans for an underground rapid transit system for Dublin (I mean before the recent metro north plans), as I reckon that even back then a metro would have been more effective at moving people across the city, than a system of trams?

gobnaitolunacy · 17-09-2012 04:49PM

Hibbeler wrote: »

Was there ever any plans for an underground rapid transit system for Dublin (I mean before the recent metro north plans), as I reckon that even back then a metro would have been more effective at moving people across the city, than a system of trams?

From memory I think there was, just a couple of test holes were dug and that was it.

Dublin Used to Have the Best Mass Transit System in the World

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