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New book claims Hitler died in Argentina

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭666irishguy


    gnfnrhead wrote: »
    Thats something I was wondering and was going to check today. You just saved me the effort. :D

    Seeing that they had the ability to make such a long journey, plus the fact that light aircraft made it in and out undetected around that time, plus the secret passage way makes it a very real possibility.

    Started the book last night and it's very well written thus far.

    Yeah the type XXI U-boat had amazing range for a diesel boat and considering it would have been a one way trip, they could have taken a more elaborate route in theory. You can have a look at it on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Type_XXI_submarine
    I'm going to give the book a read as well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 353 ✭✭EchoO


    Biggins wrote: »
    Fair enough. Thats your right.

    Ah feck, I read the post before the edit and thought that was it(joke btw)
    PapaQuebec wrote: »
    You remind me of an acquaintance of mine from more than two decades ago!

    Ah come on, we have only exchanged a few posts on an anonymous message board. My point from the outset is that there is compelling evidence elsewhere(Benecke's) that the contention of this book can not be true. From what I have read elsewhere, Benecke's evidence is not addressed in the book and no comparable provided to make the case that Hitler was in fact ever in Argentina. This is enough for me not to read it.

    If I was to choose a book to read instead it be The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer. Or the books on which the film Downfallen is based - Until the final hour by Traudl Junge, Inside Hilter's bunker by Joachim Fest and Hitler's last days: An eye-withness account by Gerhardt Boldt.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    There seems to be a lot of to and fro about one Mark Benecke and his supposed comparing of teeth to an x-ray (which has been questioned).

    ...Which by the way - no one else before or after has been able to confirm - but anyway...
    SAN JOSE MERCURY
    February 20, 1987

    "The teeth of corpse DON'T MATCH Führer's pictures"

    1. Two lower bridges in corpse, NOT INSTALLED BY HITLER'S DENTIST when questioned.
    2. No evidence of root canal in corpse, DENTIST PERFORMED ROOT CANAL.
    3. Natural teeth on corpse, DENTIST SAID HITLER'S LOWER RIGHT TOOTH WAS PORCELAIN.
    4. Gaps on autopsy report not present on HITLER'S DENTAL RECORD.

    Dr. Robert Dorion, Director of Forensic Dentistry for the Ministry of Solicitor General, Quebec
    Information presented last week to AMERICAN ACADEMY OF FORENSIC SCIENCES

    I assume that Dr. Robert Dorion also knows his stuff.

    http://tst.greyfalcon.us/deadoralive.html
    In July 1943 Pierre J. Huss, chief correspondent in Berlin for the International News Service who had interviewed Hitler several times during the 1930s and 1940s, filed a report which concluded:

    But Hitler, unlike Il Duce, probably will ride the storm to the bitter end, wildly spilling oceans of blood in occupied countries and even in the Reich itself, and kill himself rather than follow Mussolini's example and resign.

    That same year a classified psychological report by the Office of Strategic Services came to the same conclusion.

    So the question remains, do we believe a foreign soil psychological report or do we instead also put faith in many other reports that say different?

    Its up to the reader.
    A book by H. D. Baumann entitled Hitler's Fate, an objective read, exposes the rumours, falsehoods and conspiracies revolving around the historically accepted death of Hitler on April 30th 1945. The consensus is that Hitler poisoned his wife, Eva, and his favourite dog, Blondi, using cyanide capsules, and then shot himself. However there are several large holes in the historical documentation of the event:

    If Hitler shot himself in the right temple, why do the Russians exhibit what is claimed to be Hitler's cranium, showing a bullet hole in the back of his head?

    There were ten official reports (conducted by NKVD and SMERSH officials, and also by the only permitted Western official) on his suicide, none of them agreed on the same method of suicide; altering in scene, gun placement and even if a gun was even involved.

    Hitler had a double. Eye witness reports state that people in the bunker noticed a significant and immediate change in Hitler's personality several days before he apparently committed suicide. He appeared shorter (Hitler's double was 2 inches shorter and often had to wear special shoes), was despondent (drugged against his will), allowed smoking (Hitler never allowed smoking near him), and his sleep patterns changed entirely: Hitler would always work late into the night and sleep in during the morning.

    The Russians first exhibited the corpse of Hitler's double, believing it to be the real thing.

    The Russians later admitted they never actually found the whole corpse of Hitler or Eva Braun.

    Why did the Russians not allow the Western allies to see the 'autopsy report' of Hitler's supposed corpse?

    Hitler's private plane landed in neutral (or loosely German-allied) Barcelona, Spain, on April 27th 1945, three days before the alleged suicide. Two months later, three German submarines surfaced and landed off the cost of South Argentina - a hot spot for hiding Nazi war criminals (Mengele, Priebke, etc). The timeframe all coincide perfectly with that required to travel from Berlin.

    Stalin was adament, and told President Truman and his military Generals and the NKVD and SMERSH, that he believed Hitler had escaped, until the time of his death.

    The propaganda machines of WWII would have been in their full swing at this point in the war. The Soviet Army would have been desperate to say that Hitler was dead, and that he took the coward's way out. What country of those times, after such a devastating war, would want to publicly admit he'd slipped through the cracks? That the most despised person in the twentieth century had escaped?

    Just read the book and judge for one's self.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭PapaQuebec


    EchoO wrote: »
    Ah feck, I read the post before the edit and thought that was it(joke btw)



    Ah come on, we have only exchanged a few posts on an anonymous message board. My point from the outset is that there is compelling evidence elsewhere(Benecke's) that the contention of this book can not be true. From what I have read elsewhere, Benecke's evidence is not addressed in the book and no comparable provided to make the case that Hitler was in fact ever in Argentina. This is enough for me not to read it.

    If I was to choose a book to read instead it be The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer. Or the books on which the film Downfallen is based - Until the final hour by Traudl Junge, Inside Hilter's bunker by Joachim Fest and Hitler's last days: An eye-withness account by Gerhardt Boldt.

    And my point is that you seem willing to dismiss any scenario that doesn't match your preconceived notion based pretty much on the evidence of one man - the Sid Vicious of Forensic Odontology!

    In a previous post you quote Benecke mentioning the fragment of "Hitlers" skull and pieces of "Hitlers" jawbone in the same piece...

    ...the skull has been well debunked, so what of the jawbone and teeth?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    ......the skull has been well debunked, so what of the jawbone and teeth?

    Debunked too - see above. :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,309 ✭✭✭T-K-O


    didn't every Nazi die in Argentina


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭PapaQuebec


    Biggins wrote: »
    Debunked too - see above. :)

    Our posts crossed!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 353 ✭✭EchoO


    Biggins wrote: »
    There seems to be a lot of to and fro about one Mark Benecke and his supposed comparing of teeth to an x-ray (which has been questioned).

    ...Which by the way - no one else before or after has been able to confirm - but anyway...



    I assume that Dr. Robert Dorion also knows his stuff.

    http://tst.greyfalcon.us/deadoralive.html

    There is no supposing about it he did compare teeth to an x-ray in 2003. Dorian analysis was carried out in 1987, from memory there is somewhere in greyfalcon.us where Benecke says the use of ditigal cameras made the conclusion possible. Something that wouldn't have been available to Dr. Dorion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 353 ✭✭EchoO


    Biggins wrote: »
    Debunked too - see above. :)

    No it hasn't.:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    Biggins wrote: »
    * The bible bring us supposed good advice on how to live our lives while speaking of other daft things.

    * The TV's around the world can bring us good programmes which also showing rubbish too - most of the time on the same channels.

    * The newspapers of the world on one page can bring us startling accurate investigations while on another go off about celeb' rubbish.

    "Don't shoot the messenger JUST because of the message!"


    Look at it this way, if a German institution (or many of them as it appears) can organise the rape of Europe, the destruction of cities from East to West, can invent machinery (which even the Americans then had to steal and utilise later) and kill millions in organised death camps and organise even transporting them there while stealing every bit of their goods, even down to their gold teeth, take many billions - then they took ALL the above assets/money and more and then churned it into thousands of companies the world over besides 900 complex self created/invented businesses for their own ends, does anyone really think they could not have the brains to prepare (as they did and then intensified in '43) for arranging for some method to slip away and reap the later rewards of their activities?
    Oh, I make no claims about the theory. I just think you do yourself a disservice by citing the history channel.
    I'll be reading the book starting tonight thanks to PapaQuebec.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 353 ✭✭EchoO


    PapaQuebec wrote: »
    And my point is that you seem willing to dismiss any scenario that doesn't match your preconceived notion based pretty much on the evidence of one man - the Sid Vicious of Forensic Odontology!

    In a previous post you quote Benecke mentioning the fragment of "Hitlers" skull and pieces of "Hitlers" jawbone in the same piece...

    ...the skull has been well debunked, so what of the jawbone and teeth?

    Have you something against punks? The skull pieces DNA was tested after 2003. The jawbones DNA has never been tested.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    EchoO wrote: »
    There is no supposing about it he did compare teeth to an x-ray in 2003. Dorian analysis was carried out in 1987, from memory there is somewhere in greyfalcon.us where Benecke says the use of ditigal cameras made the conclusion possible. Something that wouldn't have been available to Dr. Dorion.

    Benecke says he compared some alleged teeth to an alleged x-ray of supposedly Hitler.
    Yet the x-ray itself stands questioned because if only there was things in it that shouldn't and other things that should be in it but were not!

    ...And thats not even getting to how the x-ray was supposed to have come about in the first place when:
    On a Canadian Broadcasting Corporation program called "As It Happens," September 17th, 1974 at 7:15 p.m., a Prof. Dr. Ryder Saguenay, oral surgeon from the Dental Faculty of the University of California at Los Angeles, said that Hitler had ordered a special plane to leave from Berlin with all medical and dental records, especially X-rays, of all top Nazis for an unknown destination.

    http://tst.greyfalcon.us/deadoralive.html

    If you even bother to look at the above site alone, it can be read that indeed there was much faking done - and this was all found out eventually.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭trashcan


    So Hitler fled to Argentina and lived in a house share with Elvis and Tupac?

    I SMELL A SITCOM!

    It's actually been done, believe it or not. (Well, kinda)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heil_Honey_I'm_Home!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Oh, I make no claims about the theory. I just think you do yourself a disservice by citing the history channel.
    I'll be reading the book starting tonight thanks to PapaQuebec.

    Enjoy the book and question everything - including the parts which might show Hitler escaped.
    Just keep an open mind. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 353 ✭✭EchoO


    Biggins wrote: »


    If you even bother to look at the above site alone

    What's with the bloody attitude, I don't agree with you - it's no big deal. I don't agree with your logic as you set it out above either - again no big deal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭PapaQuebec


    EchoO wrote: »
    Have you something against punks? The skull pieces DNA was tested after 2003. The jawbones DNA has never been tested.

    I questioned Benecke's choice of phraseology that's all:)

    I knew many "punks" during the '70's and I doubt their nihilistic ideology would have marked them out as future scientists - but that's a moot point!

    If, as you say, the jawbone hasn't been DNA tested then you're "quoting from a book with a chapter missing" aren't you?

    You don't have the full story - as no-one here has either"

    Why not just read the book and come back and discuss it? I'm sure there are many here who would enjoy the debate!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭Cosmo K


    Hitler died in Argentina? What a nice fairytale:rolleyes:

    What about the Hitler biography Ian Kershaw wrote? Which is widely accepted as the best book ever written about Hitler, I read the book, its very well researched, he couldn't find any evidence, that Hitler escaped from Berlin.

    Was he wrong? Were all the other historians, who have written about Hitler wrong? Or were they all part of the conspirancy?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 353 ✭✭EchoO


    PapaQuebec wrote: »
    I questioned Benecke's choice of phraseology that's all:)

    I knew many "punks" during the '70's and I doubt their nihilistic ideology would have marked them out as future scientists - but that's a moot point!

    If, as you say, the jawbone hasn't been DNA tested then you're "quoting from a book with a chapter missing" aren't you?

    You don't have the full story - as no-one here has either"

    True, testing it would be such an obvious thing to do. It wound end all debate then and there. I have no idea why it hasn't been done. If they do test it and it's shows not to be him then I'll read the book.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭Zab


    All I'm seeing here is the author pointing out some issues with the "official" line but then providing equally shaky "evidence" for a story hundreds of times more fantastic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭PapaQuebec


    Cosmo K wrote: »
    Hitler died in Argentina? What a nice fairytale:rolleyes:

    What about the Hitler biography Ian Kershaw wrote? Which is widely accepted as the best book ever written about Hitler, I read the book, its very well researched, he couldn't find any evidence, that Hitler escaped from Berlin.

    Was he wrong? Were all the other historians, who have written about Hitler wrong? Or were they all part of the conspirancy?

    I suppose - and it's only supposition - that if you embark on a giant conspiracy spanning several years and involving billions in looted cash and valuables, you tend to do it with graet attention to detail.

    Let's not forget that one of the most eminent cheerleaders for the "Hitler died in the bunker" faction was Hugh Trevor-Roper (Lord Dacre) - The guy who "authenticated the "Hitler Diaries"!!!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭PapaQuebec


    Zab wrote: »
    All I'm seeing here is the author pointing out some issues with the "official" line but then providing equally shaky "evidence" for a story hundreds of times more fantastic.

    Exactly what I thought when I started reading the book!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Cosmo K wrote: »
    Hitler died in Argentina? What a nice fairytale:rolleyes:

    What about the Hitler biography Ian Kershaw wrote? Which is widely accepted as the best book ever written about Hitler, I read the book, its very well researched, he couldn't find any evidence, that Hitler escaped from Berlin.

    Was he wrong? Were all the other historians, who have written about Hitler wrong? Or were they all part of the conspirancy?

    Its well documented that many, many Nazi's used the Ratlines to get there.
    One simple example of a few: http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?at_code=336951
    Another single example: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2099282/How-Nazi-used-ratline-escape-route-flee-South-America-war-daughter-woman-seduced.html

    What would be one more done under a well planned operation?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭Cosmo K


    PapaQuebec wrote: »
    I suppose - and it's only supposition - that if you embark on a giant conspiracy spanning several years and involving billions in looted cash and valuables, you tend to do it with graet attention to detail.

    Attention to detail? The red army was fighting its way through Berlin, in one of the hardest battles of the war. Hitler was trapped in his bunker right in the middle of it, suffering from parkinson desease, his generals deserting him, Himmler negotiating with the allies.....not the time to make elaborate plans if you ask me.

    There was only one way out for him and he took the easy way out, the coward.......


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    PapaQuebec wrote: »
    Exactly what I thought when I started reading the book!

    Honestly, as did I - but the wealth of information within the book made me at least look again at the possibilities and IT DID explain the financial aspects and a period of history under Peron, in Argentina, very well.

    Cosmo K wrote: »
    ...There was only one way out for him and he took the easy way out...
    No, there was a number of established ways out.
    Many, many used them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭Cosmo K


    Biggins wrote: »

    What would be one more done under a well planned operation?


    Let me ask you a question.Why do you want to believe, that Hitler escaped to Argentina?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Cosmo K wrote: »
    Let me ask you a question. Why do you want to believe, that Hitler escaped to Argentina?

    I DON'T want to believe he escaped to Argentina - thats the point.
    The fact that, that utter murderer could have scappered and lived onwards, is a horrible thought!
    He should have been captured alive and slowly burned to death for a week!

    The book (also a partial compilation of others work/research before the present authors) offers that all is not maybe what its seems.

    The creators of the present book put forth records, many, many, many statements and evidence to say that his escaping is (or was) a possibility.

    They ask you to question the WW2 winners writing of history.
    They raise many interesting questions based on new evidence and aspects which others had not access to and/or were willing to not question due to their own fixed ideas (and not willing to look at others - some things don't change)!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭PapaQuebec


    Cosmo K wrote: »
    Attention to detail? The red army was fighting its way through Berlin, in one of the hardest battles of the war. Hitler was trapped in his bunker right in the middle of it, suffering from parkinson desease, his generals deserting him, Himmler negotiating with the allies.....not the time to make elaborate plans if you ask me.

    There was only one way out for him and he took the easy way out, the coward.......

    If you read the book you will see that plans for escape to Sth America had been in hand for several years - do you think the billions transported to Argentina were solely for the benefit of the Perons?

    As for "Parkinsons disease", there is evidence that the symptoms were faked to give more credence to Gustav Weber, a seriously sick man who suffered from the shakes!

    The book establishes - in my mind at least - that the final footage of "Hitler" meeting-and-greeting the defenders of Berlin in the final days wasn't Hitler at all....why?

    Why bother?

    The war is lost and you're going to pop yourself. Why appear in public at all? And therefore why fake a public appearance?

    Unless, as the authors postulate, AH had already left Berlin.

    Again, according to the book, during his journey to the Canaries (from where he set sail for Sth America) Hitler and Braun encountered not one, not a few, but hundreds of people who recognised him instantly, and the authors reproduce detailed witness accounts to back this up!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭Cosmo K


    So, let me get this straight, one guy writes a book about the possibility that Hitler could have escaped to Argentina. And now, history has to be re-written, and all the other historians were wrong?

    About 40 years ago, Erich von Daniken wrote a book, in which he claimed, that mankind had been visited by Aliens. That they helped to build the pyramids....that they had sexual relations with us earthlings...He presented all kinds of "evidence" over the years, he sold millions of copies and I still don't believe him.

    Same with this book, in my opinion, its a money making exercise, nothing more.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭PapaQuebec


    Cosmo K wrote: »
    So, let me get this straight, one guy writes a book about the possibility that Hitler could have escaped to Argentina. And now, history has to be re-written, and all the other historians were wrong?

    About 40 years ago, Erich von Daniken wrote a book, in which he claimed, that mankind had been visited by Aliens. That they helped to build the pyramids....that they had sexual relations with us earthlings...He presented all kinds of "evidence" over the years, he sold millions of copies and I still don't believe him.

    Same with this book, in my opinion, its a money making exercise, nothing more.

    Q1. Did you read von Daniken's book?

    Q2. Have you read this book?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Cosmo K wrote: »
    So, let me get this straight, one guy writes a book about the possibility that Hitler could have escaped to Argentina. And now, history has to be re-written, and all the other historians were wrong?

    About 40 years ago, Erich von Daniken wrote a book, in which he claimed, that mankind had been visited by Aliens. That they helped to build the pyramids....that they had sexual relations with us earthlings...He presented all kinds of "evidence" over the years, he sold millions of copies and I still don't believe him.

    Same with this book, in my opinion, its a money making exercise, nothing more.

    To compare Erich von Daniken's book to the one put forth by TWO authors and much research (documented) is mad.

    Daniken's book didn't include many, many statements, documents, government reports from many governments, financial statements, and much more.

    Hell, you would be better comparing Daniken's book with the bible!


    It COULD be a money making exercise but by heavens, sadly it raises some shocking possibilities in its wake!


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