New book claims Hitler died in Argentina

Biggins · 16-09-2012 02:03PM

EchoO wrote: »

In May 1945 Soviet officers showed a dental bridge to Hilter's dentist's technician Fritz Echtmann and his dental assistant Käthe Heusermann and they both identified it as being Hitler's. The Doctor who took the x-ray wrote a chronological record of his treatment of Hilter which was later published as a book, I assume an account of the taking of that x-ray is in there.

As with Erich Kempka (see below) there are reasons for some stating what the winner of a war might want to hear.
...Then there is the fanatical loyalty aspect too!
...Then there is the aspect that a dentist who THINKS he's actually treating Hitler but isn't - remember that Hitlers very close friends couldn't tell the difference in the double(s)!

Stalin never believed Hitler was dead, insisting at the Potsdam Conference on July 17, 1945, that he had escaped, probably to Spain or Argentina.

Stalin's top general, Marshal Georgi Zhukov, said on August 6, 1945: "We found no corpse that could be Hitler's."

Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower stated publicly on October 12, 1945, "There is every assumption that Hitler is dead, but not a bit of conclusive proof that he is dead." He told the Associated Press that "Russian friends" had informed him that they had been "unable to unearth any tangible evidence of his death."

One U.S. senator went as far as offering one million U.S. dollars for proof of Hitler's death. It has never been claimed.

Historians have preferred to accept the 'masterful' account of British historian, Oxford professor, and former intelligence officer Hugh Trevor-Roper, which insists that Hitler committed suicide in the Fuhrerbunker on April 30, 1945.

It was vital to the Allied cause that Hitler should be demonstrably dead, to allow a new Germany to emerge from the ashes of the old. Trevor-Roper's work, which was published in 1947 as a book called The Last Days of Hitler, is intrinsically flawed, from the testimony of Hanna Reitsch, Hitler's favourite pilot who denied ever meeting Trevor-Roper or saying what he quoted of her, to Hitler's Luftwaffe adjutant, Nicolaus von Below, who later stated that he had lied to the Oxford don and had a good laugh every time he saw his lies repeated.

Hitler's chauffeur, Erich Kempka, was interrogated repeatedly but subsequently admitted in 1974, "I told American and British interrogators just about anything or everything I thought they wanted to hear."

There is no proof that Adolf Hitler and his wife Eva Braun killed themselves in the bunker, and yet the wider world has always believed this. Not everyone seems to have taken it as fact: the Federal Bureau of Investigation under Director J. Edgar Hoover kept files of reports on every sighting of Hitler into the 1960s; the relevant Argentine ones are to be seen in this book. However, many of the FBI's files on Hitler and Eva Braun after the war have not been released, and the same is true of those of the British security services.

Why did none of the world's intelligence organizations or the Israeli government continue searching for Hitler? The simplest answer is, "Why bother? He was dead."

To their lasting shame, the Allied Powers employed numerous Nazi war criminals for their supposed knowledge of the Red Army and Soviet capabilities in the emerging Cold War of the late 1940s. Men such as Klaus Barbie, the Butcher of Lyon, were hired by Western intelligence agencies for years after the war: an inconvenient fact that was suppressed for decades. Most proved to be of little value in the Cold War confrontation with the Soviet Union.

Equally troubling, many Nazis were allowed to find new lives in North and South America as well as Australia under government-sponsored emigration schemes in return for their services.

There is no concrete forensic evidence that it was Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun who died in the Fuhrerbunker, no eyewitness to the moment of death. The famous 'Hitler Skull' fragment held in Moscow for decades has finally been DNA-tested. It is that of a woman under the age of forty and it is not Eva Braun. There is also no absolutely accepted forensic evidence for Martin Bormann's supposed death; in 1998 German officials claimed that a skeleton buried near the Reichstag matched the DNA of an elderly relative of Bormann's, who remains nameless; the cremated ashes of the remains were scattered at sea. Bormann's family refused to accept the findings. Meanwhile, the bones found in Muller's grave, when exhumed in 1963, were found to be those of three other people.

Note: the point being that in order to prepare for the use of three bodies, plans would have had to been made in advance.
As the book shows in serious detail, such plans were in fact from '43 intensified for such an occasion.
If they could do it for a lower rank - they could do it for their master to whom they were fanatical loyal to - and the book shows throughout, the lengthy efforts they went to, do do just this.

The escape route into the Berlin subway system is still there. There are similar tunnels in London from the cellars of Buckingham Palace and 10 Downing Street, the residence of the British prime minister, to the London Tube, which would have been used by the British royal family and senior members of the government and military if London had ever fallen to Nazi invaders.
The Associated Press and Reuters reported the testimony of the pilot Peter Baumgart, who flew the couple out of Berlin along with Eva's brother in-law, Gen. Hermann Fegelein, extensively from Warsaw in 1947. But researchers have ignored this until today.

...However, video interviews with eyewitnesses filmed in the 1990s while Basti was working for Ambito Financiero, one of Argentina's most respected daily newspapers, are compelling. It is the words of these witnesses, on a tape given to us by the paper's editorial director Ricardo DuAloia, that have contributed to the findings published in this book.

In over twenty research trips to Argentina, a beautiful country full of wonderful people, one thing has always surprised us: everyone we spoke to about the possibility of Hitler living there after the war believes it was eminently possible and in many cases definitely true.

It is often dropped into conversation quite innocently. On one investigative trip, we were in the city of Curdoba planning a foray to the dilapidated Hotel Viena on the shores of Mar Chiquita, a large inland salt lake. We asked the young receptionist at our hotel for the best route from Argentina's second city to Mar Chiquita. Without knowing why we were going to Mar Chiquita, she took our map and politely showed our interpreter the best route to get there. After we had finished with the map, she said to us, "Oh, you must try the fish, it's sea fish in the middle of Argentina! And then if you're bored you can visit the Hotel Viena where Hitler and his wife used to stay after the war."

Similar stories greeted us throughout our trips. On April 20, 2007, we were in San Carlos de Bariloche smoking cigarettes outside the town's casino. A man in his seventies approached us and asked for a light and then, somewhat incongruously, inquired if we were South African. Explaining that Gerrard was Welsh and Simon English, we asked him where he was from. "Chile," he replied, explaining that he ran a fish-farming business there. We offered him a cigarette and commented that Bariloche felt very German and there were a lot of German speakers everywhere, much of the food, architecture, and culture was Germanic, and many of the street names were in German. He replied that the place was full of Nazis, particularly tonight, the anniversary of the Fuhrer's birthday. He should know, he said; his father was the gauleiter (Nazi Party regional leader) of Hamburg, Germany, and when Hitler visited Hamburg he would always stay at their home. With a cheerful auf Wiedersehen, he then walked off into the night. We had scores of similar encounters in the deepest reaches of Patagonia, but that is a story in itself.

...But probably the most telling comment in our hunt for Hitler and the U-boats that brought him and his stolen loot to Argentina came from the-then Argentine minister of justice and human rights, Senior Hannibal Fernandez. As we left his Buenos Aires ministerial office in 2007 after a lengthy interview, he politely shook our hands and said, "In 1945, in Argentina, anything was possible." He was right.

EchoO · 16-09-2012 02:37PM

Biggins wrote: »

Stalin never believed Hitler was dead, insisting at the Potsdam Conference on July 17, 1945, that he had escaped, probably to Spain or Argentina.

Stalin's top general, Marshal Georgi Zhukov, said on August 6, 1945: "We found no corpse that could be Hitler's."

Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower stated publicly on October 12, 1945, "There is every assumption that Hitler is dead, but not a bit of conclusive proof that he is dead." He told the Associated Press that "Russian friends" had informed him that they had been "unable to unearth any tangible evidence of his death."

One U.S. senator went as far as offering one million U.S. dollars for proof of Hitler's death. It has never been claimed.

Using dental records is a very well established and accurate means to identify a persons remains. I'm sure that x-ray can be confirmed as Hilter's and I'm also sure there would be records confirming that the dental bridge the Russian's agents had in 1945 is the same one that Benecke examined in 2003. This is actual physical evidence. To be 100% sure DNA testing would have to be done. I don't why it hasn't been done to date, but I assume it will be done at some stage.

When I asked you earlier if their was any physical or photograph evidence in the book, I meant physical evidence of his supposed stay in Argentina comparable to the above. From what I have read in reviews of the book - there isn't.

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 02:47PM

EchoO wrote: »

Using dental records is a very well established and accurate means to identify a persons remains. I'm sure that x-ray can be confirmed as Hilter's and I'm also sure there would be records confirming that the dental bridge the Russian's agents had in 1945 is the same one that Benecke examined in 2003. This is actual physical evidence. To be 100% sure DNA testing would have to be done. I don't why it hasn't been done to date, but I assume it will be done at some stage.

When I asked you earlier if their was any physical or photograph evidence in the book, I meant physical evidence of his supposed stay in Argentina comparable to the above. From what I have read in reviews of the book - there isn't.

Since Bormann had been planning the escape of Hitler and other senior nazis from the early '40's with meticulous attention to detail it's more than possible that a false trail was laid. After all, Hitler was made to feign a tremor in one of his arms (it was said that he was more severly injured in the July bomb plot than he actually was) to simulate the "shakes" that Gustav Weber experienced due to illness and alcoholism!

EchoO · 16-09-2012 02:55PM

PapaQuebec wrote: »

Since Bormann had been planning the escape of Hitler and other senior nazis from the early '40's with meticulous attention to detail it's more than possible that a false trail was laid. After all, Hitler was made to feign a tremor in one of his arms (it was said that he was more severly injured in the July bomb plot than he actually was) to simulate the "shakes" that Gustav Weber experienced due to illness and alcoholism!

A can't see how a verifiable x-ray and piece of his jawbone could be part of a false trail.

Biggins · 16-09-2012 02:55PM

EchoO wrote: »

Using dental records is a very well established and accurate means to identify a persons remains. I'm sure that x-ray can be confirmed as Hilter's and I'm also sure there would be records confirming that the dental bridge the Russian's agents had in 1945 is the same one that Benecke examined in 2003. This is actual physical evidence. To be 100% sure DNA testing would have to be done. I don't why it hasn't been done to date, but I assume it will be done at some stage.

When I asked you earlier if their was any physical or photograph evidence in the book, I meant physical evidence of his supposed stay in Argentina comparable to the above. From what I have read in reviews of the book - there isn't.

To repeat above:

As with Erich Kempka (see below) there are reasons for some stating what the winner of a war might want to hear.
...Then there is the fanatical loyalty aspect too!
...Then there is the aspect that a dentist who THINKS he's actually treating Hitler but isn't - remember that Hitlers very close friends couldn't tell the difference in the double(s)!

The x-ray cannot be confirmed as Hilter's. Confirmed against what? A very questionable copy of someone's x-ray what supposedly was Hitlers?
The later special agents only had the word of someone who was either (a) still loyal (b) unaware if they were treating a double (c) someone who told them what they wanted to hear (d) someone who wanted to feel special and/or take advantage of something they might say they are in possession of. Didn't he write a book later for profit?

...the dental bridge the Russian's agents had in 1945 is the same one that Benecke examined in 2003.

The dental bridge has been shown to be very questionable to say the least!

This is actual physical evidence.

Yes there is - and NONE of it has been proven 100%

There has been earlier estimates that they were what others said they were supposedly.
Only later, to be found out as totally false.

When I asked you earlier if their was any physical or photograph evidence in the book, I meant physical evidence of his supposed stay in Argentina comparable to the above. From what I have read in reviews of the book - there isn't.

Just a lot of astounding details, a lot of witness statements, including Argentinian policemen, some people from whom were directly connected to Hitler and others who worked as servants (such as Catalina Gomero was the housemaid and virtual adopted daughter of the Eichhorn family. She waited on Hitler at their home in La Falda, in Cordoba Province in 1949. She said that his visit was "kept very, very secret." She also saw Hitler with the Eichhorns at their mountain retreat, El Castillo, that same year.), financial records, and much more as detailed in the book.

I don't expect you to change your mind - but read the book and decide for yourself if at all what the British and Americans have been saying publicly, is 100% true!

The Russians eventually DIDN'T eventually think Hitler was dead - and they were the ones with the supposed body parts to boot!

Again, as the publishers stated:

This book raises many intriguing questions, but it does not conclusively settle the issue. Perhaps this is a mystery that will never be solved, as with so many other moments in time. Or perhaps, once this issue is in the public arena, other facts will come to light that will bring us closer to a definitive answer. The authors wrote this book in a search for the truth, and they may have found it. Inevitably, you, the reader, will be the ultimate judge.

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 02:57PM

Biggins wrote: »

To repeat above:

The x-ray cannot be confirmed as Hilter's.
The later special agents only had the word of someone who was either (a) still loyal (b) unaware if they were treating a double (c) someone who told them what they wanted to hear (d) someone who wanted to feel special and/or take advantage of something they might say they are in possession of. Didn't he write a book later for profit?

The dental bridge has been shown to be very questionable to say the least!

Yes there is - and NONE of it has been proven 100%

There has been earlier estimates that they were what others said they were supposedly.
Only later, to be found out as totally false.

Just a lot of astounding details, a lot of witness statements, including Argentinian policemen, some people from whom were directly connected to Hitler and others who worked as servants (such as Catalina Gomero was the housemaid and virtual adopted daughter of the Eichhorn family. She waited on Hitler at their home in La Falda, in Cordoba Province in 1949. She said that his visit was "kept very, very secret." She also saw Hitler with the Eichhorns at their mountain retreat, El Castillo, that same year.), financial records, and much more as detail in the book.

I don't expect you to change your mind - but read the book and decide for yourself.

Excellent advice!

Biggins · 16-09-2012 03:03PM

EchoO wrote: »

A can't see how a verifiable x-ray and piece of his jawbone could be part of a false trail.

"verifiable" but were they 100% - without any doubt?
...And thats including relying on those that its supposedly from and supposedly someone in '45 telling the truth!

As we know now, many didn't tell the truth!

666irishguy · 16-09-2012 03:09PM

This has been doing the rounds since the end of May 45. I think it got started with the confusion the Soviets initially had when they found his butler and declared it was Hitler because he had somewhat of a resemblance to him, but then realised it wasn't and the idea that he might have got away and left a double became an outside possibility in some minds. I've seen various interviews with Hitler's secretary Junge and his personal aid/bodyguard Rochus Misch and both seem to give compelling testimony that he ended it in his personal quarters in the bunker in Berlin. I doubt they would lie for the rest of their lives, particularly considering such info would be the ultimate bargaining chip for a better life after the war. The fact that the legend of Bormann's possible escape through the ruins of Berlin has been proposed by several researchers, with some even claiming to have found a grave in Paraguay or Uruguay, also tends to make people believe Hitler could have gotten out. Add to that the fact that Hanna Reisch (a test pilot) got through unsafe airspace and landed a small plane in Berlin in late April, and successfully flew out again, shows escape through enemy airspace and AA guns was possible almost right up to end. I think Hitler didn't escape, I doubt his ego would have accepted the post-war world in Germany and the idea of being an anonymous ex-pat in South America, he would have spoke out, or somebody would have given up the secret for cash.

EchoO · 16-09-2012 03:19PM

This book raises many intriguing questions, but it does not conclusively settle the issue. Perhaps this is a mystery that will never be solved, as with so many other moments in time. Or perhaps, once this issue is in the public arena, other facts will come to light that will bring us closer to a definitive answer. The authors wrote this book in a search for the truth, and they may have found it. Inevitably, you, the reader, will be the ultimate judge.

Which is a very convenient way of presenting the fact that they couldn't prove their case. I stand by Benecke's evidence until it has been proven otherwise. To me this book is classic conspiracy theory stuff and have no interest in reading it. Reading reviews like this this was enough....

http://www.amazon.ca/review/R2BW3YAVO52HGR

Biggins · 16-09-2012 03:26PM

666irishguy wrote: »

This has been doing the rounds since the end of May 45. I think it got started with the confusion the Soviets initially had when they found his butler and declared it was Hitler because he had somewhat of a resemblance to him, but then realised it wasn't and the idea that he might have got away and left a double became an outside possibility in some minds. I've seen various interviews with Hitler's secretary Junge and his personal aid/bodyguard Rochus Misch and both seem to give compelling testimony that he ended it in his personal quarters in the bunker in Berlin. I doubt they would lie for the rest of their lives, particularly considering such info would be the ultimate bargaining chip for a better life after the war. The fact that the legend of Bormann's possible escape through the ruins of Berlin has been proposed by several researchers, with some even claiming to have found a grave in Paraguay or Uruguay, also tends to make people believe Hitler could have gotten out. Add to that the fact that Hanna Reisch (a test pilot) got through unsafe airspace and landed a small plane in Berlin in late April, and successfully flew out again, shows escape through enemy airspace and AA guns was possible almost right up to end. I think Hitler didn't escape, I doubt his ego would have accepted the post-war world in Germany and the idea of being an anonymous ex-pat in South America, he would have spoke out, or somebody would have given up the secret for cash.

I could point out many points which could be further debated and refuted - but those involved with the very heavy detailed book, do that better than I could - and do.

Hitler's secretary Junge and his personal aid/bodyguard Rochus Misch were left behind as part supposedly to keep to the pretence that it was in deed their loved Fuhrer with a bullet hole in his head.
They kept up this notion to their deaths (loyalty or genuine unknowing that at the last minute, there was a possible switch).
Someone had to remain behind (be they in pure innocence of not knowing or helping to keep up a pretence) that a supposed un-recognisable body burned, was supposedly their once boss.
Their words would/could throw any searchers off scent or even stop them!

There are many names, details and reports in the book about the later years of life in Paraguay. the following is just one of many up to now, unknown details... what is not widely known up to now is that there is reports which were asked for by J. Edgar Hoover of Hitler's presence (one example report was in Casino, Brazil, June 5, 1947. Hoover immediately asked for more details. An FBI report to Hoover, dated August 6, 1947, giving further details of Hitler and Braun's time in Casino, Brazil.) A number of such reports have emerged along with American agents as well as Argentinian one working for the Americans who identified the supposed Hitler and his wife, a number of times.

Biggins · 16-09-2012 03:35PM

EchoO wrote: »

Which is a very convenient way of presenting the fact that they couldn't prove their case. I stand by Benecke's evidence until it has been proven otherwise. To me this book is classic conspiracy theory stuff and have no interest in reading it. Reading reviews like this this was enough....

http://www.amazon.ca/review/R2BW3YAVO52HGR

Well your judging a book by judging the judges.
Daftness in itself.
(Who the hell is "Roger Clark" anyway? O' wait, just another person. What's his qualifications again did you say, to give an expert judgement? He himself relies on un-named 'experts' (who?) without even their back-up refuting evidence!)
...So your judging a book by judging a judge who has judged an opinion based upon even more so called 'experts'/judges!

Right... got it!

Seeing as you have made up your mind and "have no interest in reading it" - your denying yourself hundreds of pages of very detailed and documented facts.

A foolish position to take, to say the least.
To not even look at further established facts which expose another side to the story put out, is like the ostrich once again sticking its head in the sand, just not wishing to hear any different in defiance others!

I suggest you at least read the book - but your not even willing to.
There is no point in discussing this matter with someone so belligerent and non-open minded - nor willing to be.

666irishguy · 16-09-2012 03:50PM

Biggins wrote: »

I could point out many points which could be further debated and refuted - but those involved with the very heavy detailed book, do that better than I could - and do.

Hitler's secretary Junge and his personal aid/bodyguard Rochus Misch were left behind as part supposedly to keep to the pretence that it was in deed their loved Fuhrer with a bullet hole in his head.
They kept up this notion to their deaths (loyalty or genuine unknowing that at the last minute, there was a possible switch).
Someone had to remain behind (be they in pure innocence of not knowing or helping to keep up a pretence) that a supposed un-recognisable body burned, was supposedly their once boss.
Their words would/could throw any searchers off scent or even stop them!

There are many names, details and reports in the book about the later years of life in Paraguay. the following is just one of many up to now, unknown details... what is not widely known up to now is that there is reports which were asked for by J. Edgar Hoover of Hitler's presence (one example report was in Casino, Brazil, June 5, 1947. Hoover immediately asked for more details. An FBI report to Hoover, dated August 6, 1947, giving further details of Hitler and Braun's time in Casino, Brazil.) A number of such reports have emerged along with American agents as well as Argentinian one working for the Americans who identified the supposed Hitler and his wife, a number of times.

It would be an outlandishly complicated deception and a secret almost too big to keep, though not totally beyond the realms of possibility given the characters involved. Do they mention the exact method of escape? I assume it would have to be by light aircraft to a submarine base that was still operating or in their hands.

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 03:57PM

666irishguy wrote: »

It would be an outlandishly complicated deception and a secret almost too big to keep, though not totally beyond the realms of possibility given the characters involved. Do they mention the exact method of escape? I assume it would have to be by light aircraft to a submarine base that was still operating or in their hands.

Quite correct - and during the several legs of the airborne part of the escape AH and Braun were seen - and recognised - by many, many people including a group of some 300 German troops in the process of evacuation. He is said to have addressed them en masse and spoken to many individually - many accounts are published in the book!

Biggins · 16-09-2012 03:57PM

666irishguy wrote: »

...Do they mention the exact method of escape? I assume it would have to be by light aircraft to a submarine base that was still operating or in their hands.

YES.
And back it up with further taken statements, times, dates, details, etc.

EchoO cleveryly provided a link to one reviewer.
In doing so he cleverly was able to not let others appear above or below it.
Well if we are going to pick a random reviewer who's words suit our points of view, here's another from the same book sales site.

By G. Poirier: http://www.amazon.ca/product-reviews/1402781393/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

If so many Nazi war criminals escaped capture after World War II - most living out the rest of their lives somewhere in the world - then why not Hitler? After all, it appears that there has never been any irrefutable forensic evidence proving that Hitler died in April, 1945. For anyone who may have ever pondered this issue, as I have, this book should be most intriguing. Using various sources as well as deductive research, the authors, both highly reputable, make the case that Hitler may indeed have escaped Germany in April, 1945.

Much of the first half of the book is comprised of well-documented historical facts about WWII with particular emphasis placed on the loot acquired by the Nazis and its storage under several forms and in different places in the world. Also highlighted are Bormann's efforts in developing an escape plan for Hitler, should Germany lose the war. The rest of the book focuses on the details of Hitler's hypothetical escape and relocation in Argentina as well as some details of his life there - all gleaned from various sources. But here again, no conclusive irrefutable proof is provided that Hitler escaped at all.

The authors have based their case on different documents (including recently-released FBI and CIA reports), certain memoirs of key individuals and eye-witness testimonies from various people who have seen Hitler both during his escape and while living in Argentina - testimonies that, although independent of one another, are mutually consistent. Other interesting revelations contained in this book are that Martin Bormann and Heinrich Muller also successfully escaped; and that Hitler and Eva Braun had two daughters of their own while Hitler had other children from other women. The book contains extensive references and many documented details that support the arguments presented.

I found this book to be extremely well-written. The prose is clear, lively, riveting and highly accessible. I gave this book a maximum rating because I thoroughly enjoyed it and, as a non-specialist, I found the case presented highly plausible. The information provided here may lead to more research on this sure-to-be contentious issue.

Or maybe another:

By crobcole (Bolton, UK) -
This review is from: Grey Wolf: The Escape of Adolf Hitler (Hardcover)
I've been lucky enough to read this pre-publication and it's an absolutely stunning work. I approached it with a great deal of scepticism, because like just about everybody else, I'd accepted the word of all those who claimed Adolph Hitler killed himself in Berlin in 1945. However, five years of painstaking research by these two guys, Williams and Dunstan, has given us a far more believable and acceptable account of the fate of the Fuhrer. He escaped to the Argentinian mountains alongside many of his henchmen and fellow Nazis and lived a peaceful, luxurious life until the early 1960's when he died from natural causes. There will be many who will try and pick this epic journalism apart, but in the end, I suspect, most will concede that the story is almost certainly the truth.

But then I could have picked them only because they suit my point of view.

I'm open to be very wrong in ALL things.

Some of us are not even willing to listen to others and study the very important details to, be a good judge!

EchoO · 16-09-2012 04:17PM

Biggins wrote: »

Well your judging a book by judging the judges.
Daftness in itself.
(Who the hell is "Roger Clark" anyway? O' wait, just another person. What's his qualifications again did you say, to give an expert judgement? He himself relies on un-named 'experts' (who?) without even their back-up refuting evidence!)
...So your judging a book by judging a judge who has judged an opinion based upon even more so called 'experts'/judges!

Right... got it!

Seeing as you have made up your mind and "have no interest in reading it" - your denying yourself hundreds of pages of very detailed and documented facts.

A foolish position to take, to say the least.
To not even look at further established facts which expose another side to the story put out, is like the ostrich once again sticking its head in the sand, just not wishing to hear any different in defiance others!

I suggest you at least read the book - but your not even willing to.
There is no point in discussing this matter with someone so belligerent and non-open minded - nor willing to be.

If I was going to spent time reading a book on how and where Hilter died this isn't the book that I would choose. You rate it - fine that's your prerogative. If you think that makes me small minded an belligerent - again fine, I couldn't care less tbh.

Biggins · 16-09-2012 04:24PM

EchoO wrote: »

If I was going to spent time reading a book on how and where Hilter died this isn't the book that I would choose. You rate it - fine that's your prerogative. If you think that makes me small minded an belligerent - again fine, I couldn't care less tbh.

Fair enough. Thats your right.
Feel free to tell us what other book you would chose that might espouse that Hitler lived after 1945.
Feel free to tell us why you judge this one to be bad - where another one might be better!

I rate the book as interesting and opens possibilities and questions that others (besides those involved in the book) have not asked.
As long as others are not even willing to look at other details which might upset their precious staunch view, the world become a further place with no compromise and/or continued belligerency.
Look where that has got the world in the past and present!

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 04:36PM

EchoO wrote: »

If I was going to spent time reading a book on how and where Hilter died this isn't the book that I would choose. You rate it - fine that's your prerogative. If you think that makes me small minded an belligerent - again fine, I couldn't care less tbh.

You remind me of an acquaintance of mine from more than two decades ago!

I worked in the print-media (predominantly) for a dozen years both here and in the UK - for more than two-thirds of that time I covered crime/courts, my last position being with a Dublin-based national newspaper.

I used to bump into this guy a couple of times a week in my (then) local. He used to ask which case I was covering, and then give me his "take" on the crime in question - he had every base covered - means, motive, opportunity etc, he would forensically disect every par in every paper and watch every TV report concerning the case!

What he couldn't appreciate, however, was that news coverage of an event is just a miniscule precis of the actual proceedings - more than four hours of testimony distilled into five or six pars, or 30secs of airtime!

A bit like judging a book by a review!

666irishguy · 16-09-2012 04:38PM

PapaQuebec wrote: »

Quite correct - and during the several legs of the airborne part of the escape AH and Braun were seen - and recognised - by many, many people including a group of some 300 German troops in the process of evacuation. He is said to have addressed them en masse and spoken to many individually - many accounts are published in the book!

It sounds unbelievable but I couldn't say it's wouldn't have been impossible. I'd also wonder though, was this some kind of double being whisked around to the troops to perhaps give them a morale boost. The fact that Eva Braun was there though, might disqualify that idea considering virtually nobody outside the inner circle would have known who she was.

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 04:42PM

666irishguy wrote: »

It sounds unbelievable but I couldn't say it's wouldn't have been impossible. I'd also wonder though, was this some kind of double being whisked around to the troops to perhaps give them a morale boost. The fact that Eva Braun was there though, might disqualify that idea considering virtually nobody outside the inner circle would have known who she was.

The need for a "morale boost" was long over by this time!
Some of the troops AH met (and signed autographs for) were subsequently captured by the Russians. It's likely that their testimony is the cause of Stalin never believing in Hitlers' death!

666irishguy · 16-09-2012 04:51PM

Biggins wrote: »

YES.
And back it up with further taken statements, times, dates, details, etc.

EchoO cleveryly provided a link to one reviewer.
In doing so he cleverly was able to not let others appear above or below it.
Well if we are going to pick a random reviewer who's words suit our points of view, here's another from the same book sales site.

By G. Poirier: http://www.amazon.ca/product-reviews/1402781393/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

Or maybe another:

But then I could have picked them only because they suit my point of view.

I'm open to be very wrong in ALL things.

Some of us are not even willing to listen to others and study the very important details to, be a good judge!

I would be highly sceptical of such a claim myself. But all I would say is that it would not be impossible. The did have the newer subs that could stay submerged almost indefinitely with the aid of a snorkel and had the range to reach South America. Also there was still methods of getting out of Berlin. I suppose the biggest thing that would mystify me, is why he remained silent after the war. The reason behind it happening is fairly straight-forward. so it's probably less bizzare than the whole Hess flight.

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 04:57PM

666irishguy wrote: »

I would be highly sceptical of such a claim myself. But all I would say is that it would not be impossible. The did have the newer subs that could stay submerged almost indefinitely with the aid of a snorkel and had the range to reach South America. Also there was still methods of getting out of Berlin. I suppose the biggest thing that would mystify me, is why he remained silent after the war. The reason behind it happening is fairly straight-forward. so it's probably less bizzare than the whole Hess flight.

With the greatest of respect, what do you think he should have done?
Given a press-conference?

The first sniff of AH in Patagonia would have had Mossad or its pre-'49 equivalent heading hotfoot for South America!

666irishguy · 16-09-2012 05:02PM

PapaQuebec wrote: »

The need for a "morale boost" was long over by this time!
Some of the troops AH met (and signed autographs for) were subsequently captured by the Russians. It's likely that their testimony is the cause of Stalin never believing in Hitlers' death!

Maybe he was handing out morale pills. Seriously though perhaps a morale boost might not be the right way of looking at it. He (Hitler or the double) could have been feeding them the lie that he was on his way to meet the Americans to discuss linking up with them and attacking the Soviets together. It might have given them hope to hold out a few days longer. Impossible to say. If such testimony was given by German POW's to the Soviets, It would be difficult not to think that they would have told the Soviet's anything they wanted to hear.

gnfnrhead · 16-09-2012 05:04PM

666irishguy wrote: »

I would be highly sceptical of such a claim myself. But all I would say is that it would not be impossible. The did have the newer subs that could stay submerged almost indefinitely with the aid of a snorkel and had the range to reach South America. Also there was still methods of getting out of Berlin. I suppose the biggest thing that would mystify me, is why he remained silent after the war. The reason behind it happening is fairly straight-forward. so it's probably less bizzare than the whole Hess flight.

Thats something I was wondering and was going to check today. You just saved me the effort.

Seeing that they had the ability to make such a long journey, plus the fact that light aircraft made it in and out undetected around that time, plus the secret passage way makes it a very real possibility.

Started the book last night and it's very well written thus far.

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 05:06PM

666irishguy wrote: »

Maybe he was handing out morale pills. Seriously though perhaps a morale boost might not be the right way of looking at it. He (Hitler or the double) could have been feeding them the lie that he was on his way to meet the Americans to discuss linking up with them and attacking the Soviets together. It might have given them hope to hold out a few days longer. Impossible to say. If such testimony was given by German POW's to the Soviets, It would be difficult not to think that they would have told the Soviet's anything they wanted to hear.

As has been said before on this thread: Why not read the book?

It's here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ujvjrojbaofuaoa/u3iqF2pHSm

666irishguy · 16-09-2012 05:11PM

PapaQuebec wrote: »

With the greatest of respect, what do you think he should have done?
Given a press-conference?

The first sniff of AH in Patagonia would have had Mossad or its pre-'49 equivalent heading hotfoot for South America!

PapaQuebec wrote: »

As has been said before on this thread: Why not read the book?

It's here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ujvjrojbaofuaoa/u3iqF2pHSm

Yeah that is a valid point on the press conference! he would have been the NO.1 target for every intelligence service on the Allied and Soviet side. I suppose I am really wondering why we never got a posthumous manifesto or statement. I am definitely going to get a copy of this book.

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 05:12PM

666irishguy wrote: »

Yeah that is a valid point on the press conference! he would have been the NO.1 target for every intelligence service on the Allied and Soviet side. I suppose I am really wondering why we never got a posthumous manifesto or statement. I am definitely going to get a copy of this book.

Click the link in my last post and download it in the format that suits you best!
Enjoy!

Sulla Felix · 16-09-2012 05:13PM

Biggins wrote: »

There was a very good History channel documentary that was on air a few months back.

Sorry, I can't countenance someone using "good", "History channel" and "documentary" in the same sentence. This, the channel that brought us Ancient Aliens, Sliced, UFO Hunters and MonsterQuest shouldn't be brought up in any kind of serious discussion of history.

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 05:15PM

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Sorry, I can't countenance someone using "good", "History channel" and "documentary" in the same sentence. This, the channel that brought us Ancient Aliens, Sliced, UFO Hunters and MonsterQuest shouldn't be brought up in any kind of serious discussion of history.

I know the type.

The "documentaries" that assume the viewers' IQ is so low, and their attention-span so limited as to require a 3-minute recap every 10 mins!

666irishguy · 16-09-2012 05:32PM

PapaQuebec wrote: »

Click the link in my last post and download it in the format that suits you best!
Enjoy!

Will do. Thanks for the link.

Biggins · 16-09-2012 05:42PM

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Sorry, I can't countenance someone using "good", "History channel" and "documentary" in the same sentence. This, the channel that brought us Ancient Aliens, Sliced, UFO Hunters and MonsterQuest shouldn't be brought up in any kind of serious discussion of history.

* The bible bring us supposed good advice on how to live our lives while speaking of other daft things.

* The TV's around the world can bring us good programmes which also showing rubbish too - most of the time on the same channels.

* The newspapers of the world on one page can bring us startling accurate investigations while on another go off about celeb' rubbish.

"Don't shoot the messenger JUST because of the message!"

Look at it this way, if a German institution (or many of them as it appears) can organise the rape of Europe, the destruction of cities from East to West, can invent machinery (which even the Americans then had to steal and utilise later) and kill millions in organised death camps and organise even transporting them there while stealing every bit of their goods, even down to their gold teeth, take many billions - then they took ALL the above assets/money and more and then churned it into thousands of companies the world over besides 900 complex self created/invented businesses for their own ends, does anyone really think they could not have the brains to prepare (as they did and then intensified in '43) for arranging for some method to slip away and reap the later rewards of their activities?

New book claims Hitler died in Argentina

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