Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 05:59PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

I saw a kid with red hair get being beaten when I was young....

Man, we can say things like that about anything. I'm just saying children of same sex couples will experience tremendous confusion and bullying!

15-09-2012 06:01PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Man, we can say things like that about anything. I'm just saying children of same sex couples will experience tremendous confusion and bullying!

So would children for any other possible parental configuration.

It's up to you to show that it would be worse for the children of gay parents and show that is ultimately detrimental.

And then explain why we should not try to fight ignorance like yours which causes that bullying, but instead deny people's rights because of it.

MagicMarker · 15-09-2012 06:03PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Man, we can say things like that about anything. I'm just saying children of same sex couples will experience tremendous confusion and bullying!

You do realise children of same sex parents already exist? And that there are plenty of then who do not suffer from confusion or bullying?

5uspect · 15-09-2012 06:04PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Absurd? Ofcourse children of same-sex marriages will be bullied. We don't need a study to say this. This is the most basic of common sense!

So what you're saying is that heterosexual parents rear bullies?
Do you think the children of gay couples are sure susceptible to bullying?
What's to say that the children of gay parents are more likely to be bullies themselves?

Of course all of this is bollox without evidence.

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 06:04PM

King Mob wrote: »

So would children for any other possible parental configuration.

It's up to you to show that it would be worse for the children of gay parents and show that is ultimately detrimental.

And then explain why we should not try to fight ignorance like yours which causes that bullying, but instead deny people's rights because of it.

What could I possibly do to show ya? It should be common sense to you people!

I'm trying to change my views but you guys aren't exactly helping. I'm trying to become neutral on this. I really am; But noooo I have to be a bigot, don't I?

I'm going Chinese, i'll reply when I get home in an hour or two!

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 06:06PM

5uspect wrote: »

So what you're saying is that heterosexual parents rear bullies?
Do you think the children of gay couples are sure susceptible to bullying?
What's to say that the children of gay parents are more likely to be bullies themselves?

Of course all of this is bollox without evidence.

Look; This is what i'm saying.

Children of same-sex marriages WILL be bullied beyond belief in the vast majority of cases. This is the MOST BASIC of common sense to anyone who's lived in the real world. They will also experience tremendous confusion at having two daddies. They won't experience the intricate relationship of the nurturing mother or the protective father if he has two mammies. I'll get back to you soon, going chinese!

15-09-2012 06:08PM

Sponge25,

It's been two hours since oldrnwisr posted a link to his post that addresses all of your issues and concerns. You said you were too busy to read it, yet here you are, still constantly posting. Please, stop posting absolute nonsense for a little while and take half an hour to read the link.

1ZRed · 15-09-2012 06:11PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Common sense. I lived life I know what happens.

I've seen a gay kid get his head put under scalding hot water in school when I was young.

Well then tackle the cause. When you have children, teach them that that sort of discrimination and prejudice is wrong and shouldn't be accepted. It is just like you would teach them not to make racial comments and slurs about people of different skin colours.

Don't blame gay adoption for causing bullying. Bullying is a rising issue that is only growing more severe in recent years. Blame the parents for not setting the oppropriate standards for them. It's very easy to cast the problem off and not have to deal with it as long as it doesn't involve you, but that is the wrong and irresponsible way to deal with these issues in my view.

The times are changing, take your responsibility seriously and teach your children to be more open minded and acceptant. I feel in this day and age, in a growing multi cultural and diverse world, it would be irresponsible to do otherwise or nothing at all.

EclipsiumRasa · 15-09-2012 06:13PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Absurd? Ofcourse children of same-sex marriages will be bullied. We don't need a study to say this. This is the most basic of common sense!

King Mob wrote: »

Then in this case, do you agree that children of mixed race couples will be bullied?
Yes or no?

Sponge25 wrote: »

It's possible but definately not to the extent of same-sex kids! Not even close!

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

What are you basing this on, besides exclamation marks?

I'm starting to see where Sponge25 is coming from. The amount of people ready to down someone's throat here rather than demonstrate a little self control and reply reasonably is disappointing. I'm rather embarrassed to find myself on the same side of the debate really. :mad:

Spong25, that said, I'm still not convinced though. Gay marriage is already part of the law in areas with populations in the millions, right? And countries of that size inevitably have a lot of child psychologists.

If your argument is that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed because of the inevitable and uncontrollable explosion in the rates of bullying caused because of the legalisation of gay marriage, don't you think that teachers and child psychologists would be speaking out, even marching in the streets to demand the governments reverse the decision?

I mean, people don't go into teaching or child psychology because either the money is great or because they enjoy the kind of high standing in society that sports stars enjoy. The only perk of the jobs is you get to work with kids; those jobs mostly appeal to people who'd like that.

So if that bullying explosion caused by gay marriage was real, they'd know, and they'd say it. But it hasn't happened.

fitz0 · 15-09-2012 06:19PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

They won't experience the intricate relationship of the nurturing mother or the protective father if he has two mammies.

Or if they are part of a single parent family. That argument goes both ways.

But even sticking with same sex couples. If a child grows up being told it's ok, where would the confusion be? The only confusion I'd see is over why others can't accept that a man can love a man and a woman can love a woman.

It's up to the parents of those kids that would bully them to teach them that it's not ok to do that.

15-09-2012 06:24PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

What could I possibly do to show ya? It should be common sense to you people!

The same sort of evidence we've presented to you, but you've refused to look at.
You've been show a long list of studies that directly refute you claims.
The least you can do is provide the same, studies showing that the kids of gay parents are worse off, or are bullied more.

Your version of common sense clearly is not adequate as we all can see using our common sense that denying people's rights on such stupid reasons is not fair or a good thing.

Even you realise how silly and bigoted your own logic is because when applying it to a different topic, mixed race couples, you know that it's wrong to deny them the right to marry.

Sponge25 wrote: »

I'm trying to change my views but you guys aren't exactly helping. I'm trying to become neutral on this. I really am; But noooo I have to be a bigot, don't I?

Again, we've outlined the reasons you're are being called a bigot.
You are asserting that gay people are not good parents based solely and completely on your narrow, close minded position.

If you really want to change your mind, start being honest about it.

Mickeroo · 15-09-2012 06:28PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Man, we can say things like that about anything. I'm just saying children of same sex couples will experience tremendous confusion and bullying!

Oh the ****ing irony.

The Mad Hatter · 15-09-2012 07:04PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

What are you basing this on, besides exclamation marks?

Common sense. I lived life I know what happens.

I've seen a gay kid get his head put under scalding hot water in school when I was young.

I've lived life too. I've known kids of gay parents, single parents, mixed-race parents, no parents and just about anything else you could care to name. I hesitate to call people I care about "normal", but the lives they've lived have not deviated in any significant way from the average.

Yes, it's true that some kids of gay parents might be bullied worse than kids of straight parents. That's not a problem with the childrens' parentage; if anything it's the fault of the family of the bullies. Do you really think denying gays the right to marry can fix homophobia?

NuMarvel · 15-09-2012 07:06PM

Links234 wrote: »

I was bullied for wearing glasses, should we oppose glasses so that children would have any semblence of a normal life?

Yes we should. Because glasses and eye-correction wear of any kind are not natural...

(BTW< I know that's not Sponge's point, but I thought it was a good opportunity to highlight the absurdity of sticking only to "natural law" that another poster brought up.

Sponge25 wrote: »

Ofcourse not - that's a silly thing to say. Alot of kids get bullied but believe me being bullied for wearing glasses would be nothing compared to being bullied for having two daddies. The kid would never hear the end of it.

Look i'm trying my best to understand your views and adjust me own but I get called every name under the sun. Not exactly good folks on here are yas!?

Do you have evidence to support your claim that children with same sex parents get bullied exponentially more than other children?

And I can understand needing time to get used to new concepts, but that isn't sufficient reason to deny equality. Let me put it to you this way; if I said that women shouldn't be entitled to equal pay, because I'm still trying to get used to them having the vote, I'd be laughed off the forum, and rightly so. Whether you mean it or not, that's how most of the people here view your comments about civil partnership being enough for the time being, until you get used to it.

Sponge25 wrote: »

I've seen a gay kid get his head put under scalding hot water in school when I was young.

So shouldn't that mean you'd be FOR same sex marriage rights? Homosexuality needs to be normalised, so that things like this don't happen. And a very good way for homosexuality to be normalised is for gay men and women to be treated like normal people. That means treating them as equals, and giving them the same rights (and responsibilities) as everyone else.

Until that happens, we'll keep seeing gay kids being victimised and bullied, because the bullies think that being gay makes the boy or girl something lesser.

Sponge25 wrote: »

Look; This is what i'm saying.

Children of same-sex marriages WILL be bullied beyond belief in the vast majority of cases. This is the MOST BASIC of common sense to anyone who's lived in the real world. They will also experience tremendous confusion at having two daddies. They won't experience the intricate relationship of the nurturing mother or the protective father if he has two mammies. I'll get back to you soon, going chinese!

As someone else pointed out, many same sex couples already have children. Heck, the HSE has used same sex couples as foster parents on many an occasion. They're hardly going to place vulnerable children in a situation where the parents would make matters worse for the children.

EclipsiumRasa wrote: »

Spong25, that said, I'm still not convinced though. Gay marriage is already part of the law in areas with populations in the millions, right? And countries of that size inevitably have a lot of child psychologists.

If your argument is that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed because of the inevitable and uncontrollable explosion in the rates of bullying caused because of the legalisation of gay marriage, don't you think that teachers and child psychologists would be speaking out, even marching in the streets to demand the governments reverse the decision?

I mean, people don't go into teaching or child psychology because either the money is great or because they enjoy the kind of high standing in society that sports stars enjoy. The only perk of the jobs is you get to work with kids; those jobs mostly appeal to people who'd like that.

So if that bullying explosion caused by gay marriage was real, they'd know, and they'd say it. But it hasn't happened.

What's more, the Ombudsman for Children has no issues with children having same sex parents either. When she was submitting her formal advice to the Government on what would become the Civil Partnership bill, she felt it didn't go far enough to protect the rights of children with same sex parents. If she was concerned about the welfare of children with same sex parents, I don't think she'd be calling for the legal bonds between parents and children to be strengthened. She expressed similar opinions when talking about what would become the Adoption Act 2009.

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 07:23PM

gvn wrote: »

Sponge25,

It's been two hours since oldrnwisr posted a link to his post that addresses all of your issues and concerns. You said you were too busy to read it, yet here you are, still constantly posting. Please, stop posting absolute nonsense for a little while and take half an hour to read the link.

GVN, I had two kids swinging out of me. I didn't have time to read it all. I've read it all now.

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 07:28PM

EclipsiumRasa wrote: »

I'm starting to see where Sponge25 is coming from. The amount of people ready to down someone's throat here rather than demonstrate a little self control and reply reasonably is disappointing. I'm rather embarrassed to find myself on the same side of the debate really. :mad:

Spong25, that said, I'm still not convinced though. Gay marriage is already part of the law in areas with populations in the millions, right? And countries of that size inevitably have a lot of child psychologists.

If your argument is that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed because of the inevitable and uncontrollable explosion in the rates of bullying caused because of the legalisation of gay marriage, don't you think that teachers and child psychologists would be speaking out, even marching in the streets to demand the governments reverse the decision?

I mean, people don't go into teaching or child psychology because either the money is great or because they enjoy the kind of high standing in society that sports stars enjoy. The only perk of the jobs is you get to work with kids; those jobs mostly appeal to people who'd like that.

So if that bullying explosion caused by gay marriage was real, they'd know, and they'd say it. But it hasn't happened.

Thank you, EclipsiumRasa; I don't think gay-marriage should be restricted i'm merely saying that children of same-sex marriages will face challenges far beyond that of which a child is able to handle, that's all i'm saying; But yet I get called a bigot.

That's another thing about homosexuals. If you don't agree with everything they say you're a bigot. Things like that will make me distance myself from the homosexual community because i'm NO bigot. I'm a good guy.

TBH, maybe my opinion would've changed tonight if people here would've been a bit more polite to me, but that wasn't the case for sure; I was polite to all involved though!

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 07:33PM

fitz0 wrote: »

Or if they are part of a single parent family. That argument goes both ways.

But even sticking with same sex couples. If a child grows up being told it's ok, where would the confusion be? The only confusion I'd see is over why others can't accept that a man can love a man and a woman can love a woman.

It's up to the parents of those kids that would bully them to teach them that it's not ok to do that.

The confusion would arise when the little boy or girl see's his/her pals with a mammy and a daddy! That has the potential to play on a childs mind.

Single parent children almost exclusively see their father on the weekend or something. If the father is dead well then, you're arguement hardly applies here. People die, I can't help that!

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 07:38PM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Yes, it's true that some kids of gay parents might be bullied worse than kids of straight parents. That's not a problem with the childrens' parentage; if anything it's the fault of the family of the bullies. Do you really think denying gays the right to marry can fix homophobia?

People obviously aren't reading what i'm saying. I never said anything about denying rights to anyone. All I said is children of same-sex marriages will be confused and bullied. This is common sense! The reason it's dragging on so long is because no one will bother reading what i'm saying and are too quick to insult me.

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 07:42PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

Yes we should. Because glasses and eye-correction wear of any kind are not natural... (BTW< I know that's not Sponge's point, but I thought it was a good opportunity to highlight the absurdity of sticking only to "natural law" that another poster brought up.

Do you have evidence to support your claim that children with same sex parents get bullied exponentially more than other children?

And I can understand needing time to get used to new concepts, but that isn't sufficient reason to deny equality. Let me put it to you this way; if I said that women shouldn't be entitled to equal pay, because I'm still trying to get used to them having the vote, I'd be laughed off the forum, and rightly so. Whether you mean it or not, that's how most of the people here view your comments about civil partnership being enough for the time being, until you get used to it.

So shouldn't that mean you'd be FOR same sex marriage rights? Homosexuality needs to be normalised, so that things like this don't happen. And a very good way for homosexuality to be normalised is for gay men and women to be treated like normal people. That means treating them as equals, and giving them the same rights (and responsibilities) as everyone else.

Until that happens, we'll keep seeing gay kids being victimised and bullied, because the bullies think that being gay makes the boy or girl something lesser.

As someone else pointed out, many same sex couples already have children. Heck, the HSE has used same sex couples as foster parents on many an occasion. They're hardly going to place vulnerable children in a situation where the parents would make matters worse for the children.

What's more, the Ombudsman for Children has no issues with children having same sex parents either. When she was submitting her formal advice to the Government on what would become the Civil Partnership bill, she felt it didn't go far enough to protect the rights of children with same sex parents. If she was concerned about the welfare of children with same sex parents, I don't think she'd be calling for the legal bonds between parents and children to be strengthened. She expressed similar opinions when talking about what would become the Adoption Act 2009.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have kids, there should be extra protections in place for them. It's not fair on the poor kids to go trough all the stuff they will go trough. My evidence is common sense. Don't make me browse google for stories of people being bullied for having two daddies! Do it yourself; But nooo, no one listens to me, a mere bigot!

MagicMarker · 15-09-2012 07:43PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

That's another thing about homosexuals. If you don't agree with everything they say you're a bigot. Things like that will make me distance myself from the homosexual community because i'm NO bigot. I'm a good guy.

What would it say about me if I started a sentence with "That's another thing about black people...." or "The only other thing I dislike about black people....".

Sorry, but you are a bigot, and your not as good a guy as you seem to think you are.

Mickeroo · 15-09-2012 07:44PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

People obviously aren't reading what i'm saying. I never said anything about denying rights to anyone. All I said is children of same-sex marriages will be confused and bullied. This is common sense! The reason it's dragging on so long is because no one will bother reading what i'm saying and are too quick to insult me.

No, it's because you keep saying that as if it's some irrefutable inevitability no matter how many times you've been told it's not true. Posters even told you about actual academic studies which refute it yet you still say it anyway. It's not common sense, the way you keep insisting that it is is actually pretty strange.

15-09-2012 07:47PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

People obviously aren't reading what i'm saying. I never said anything about denying rights to anyone. All I said is children of same-sex marriages will be confused and bullied. This is common sense! The reason it's dragging on so long is because no one will bother reading what i'm saying and are too quick to insult me.

If it is common sense, why then does all of the objective peer reviewed research all show that the children of gay parents are not any worse off than the children of straight parents?

You claimed to have read the post you were linked to, yet you keep arguing as if you have not.

And again, if you objection is based on how much bullying a child will get, why do you not object to mixed race marriages?

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 07:51PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

No, it's because you keep saying that as if it's some irrefutable inevitability no matter how many times you've been told it's not true. Posters even told you about actual academic studies which refute it yet you still say it anyway. It's not common sense, the way you keep insisting that it is is actually pretty strange.

I DO KNOW IT'S TRUE! Gay children or children associated with homosexual are bullied at school. I seen it loads of times. I know from personal experience. I don't need academic studies when i've experienced it with my own eyes.

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 07:54PM

King Mob wrote: »

If it is common sense, why then does all of the objective peer reviewed research all show that the children of gay parents are not any worse off than the children of straight parents?

You claimed to have read the post you were linked to, yet you keep arguing as if you have not.

And again, if you objection is based on how much bullying a child will get, why do you not object to mixed race marriages?

Look, i've read alot of things. I didn't believe half of it. I thought it was common sense to any reasonable person that children of same-sex marriages would be bullied. Do they grew up just as good as an average child. That's something I honestly don't know. Do they get bullied? Yes. I thought everybody knew this. I've seen alot of people associated with homosexuals get beaten up and i've stood up for a couple of kids gettin beat up in my time too!

Remember that gay kid in American was beating up tied to a fence and left to die because he was gay!?

MagicMarker · 15-09-2012 07:55PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

I DO KNOW IT'S TRUE! Gay children or children associated with homosexual are bullied at school. I seen it loads of times. I know from personal experience. I don't need academic studies when i've experienced it with my own eyes.

NO ONE IS SAYING THEY'RE NOT BULLIED!!!!!!!

At least read what people are posting ffs. ALL kinds of children are bullied for ALL kinds of reasons! No one is disputing that. What we're disputing is your assertion that somehow all children of same sex parents will be bullied to a far greater extent, that you deem it necessary to deny same sex couples the right to have children!

Where is your proof that this is true? As you have been shown that this is not the case.

Mickeroo · 15-09-2012 07:57PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

I DO KNOW IT'S TRUE! Gay children or children associated with homosexual are bullied at school. I seen it loads of times. I know from personal experience. I don't need academic studies when i've experienced it with my own eyes.

Nobody is saying it never happens. Just because you saw it happen does not mean it will happen to every single child in the same situation though. And as has been pointed out, the problem is not with the child being bullied but with the bullies.People with your attitude are also part of the problem.

15-09-2012 07:59PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

GVN, I had two kids swinging out of me. I didn't have time to read it all. I've read it all now.

You've read it all? What do you make of it? There's hours upon hours of reading in that link. If you cared about the issue at all you'd give it due thought and research.

You keep stating that children will be bullied? Can I ask what you're basing this on, other than your "common sense"? You can't base an argument on your own "common sense." You're soapboxing: unwilling to change your views, unwilling to listen to the views of others, an constantly repeating the same tired old mistruth over and over and over again.

A pointless debate, so I'll bow out now, like I should have done pages ago based on my first instincts.

15-09-2012 08:00PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Look, i've read alot of things. I didn't believe half of it.

Why do you not believe them?
What are you using to conclude that they are wrong?

Or are you just deciding that they are wrong because they don't agree with you?

Sponge25 wrote: »

Do they grew up just as good as an average child. That's something I honestly don't know.

Lol.
You don't actually know if the children of gay parents are worse off, but you are disagreeing with gay marriage because you think that they are worse off?

So now not only was your reasoning completely idiotic, it's now totally inconsistent.

Sponge25 wrote: »

Do they get bullied? Yes. I thought everybody knew this. I've seen alot of people associated with homosexuals get beaten up and i've stood up for a couple of kids gettin beat up in my time too!

Remember that gay kid in American was beating up tied to a fence and left to die because he was gay!?

And again, no one is saying that the children of gay parents will not get bullied.
We are asking you to back up your assertions that they would be bullied more than other kids could be, and that this is detrimental to them to the point were people's rights need to be taken away.

And again, the problem in the above example is not gays or gay marriage, but ignorance and bigotry like the stuff you are posting.

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 08:04PM

gvn wrote: »

You've read it all? What do you make of it? There's hours upon hours of reading in that link. If you cared about the issue at all you'd give it due thought and research.

You keep stating that children will be bullied? Can I ask what you're basing this on, other than your "common sense"? You can't base an argument on your own "common sense." You're soapboxing: unwilling to change your views, unwilling to listen to the views of others, an constantly repeating the same tired old mistruth over and over and over again.

A pointless debate, so I'll bow out now, like I should have done pages ago based on my first instincts.

I said a couple of times I was willing to change my views if people would be a little more polite to me and tried to explain instead or ramming it down my throat like someone put it a few posts ago!

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 08:08PM

King Mob wrote: »

Why do you not believe them?
What are you using to conclude that they are wrong?

Or are you just deciding that they are wrong because they don't agree with you?

Lol.
You don't actually know if the children of gay parents are worse off, but you are disagreeing with gay marriage because you think that they are worse off?

So now not only was your reasoning completely idiotic, it's now totally inconsistent.

And again, no one is saying that the children of gay parents will not get bullied.
We are asking you to back up your assertions that they would be bullied more than other kids could be, and that this is detrimental to them to the point were people's rights need to be taken away.

And again, the problem in the above example is not gays or gay marriage, but ignorance and bigotry like the stuff you are posting.

My god; Having a differing view to homosexual community is bigotry now? My reasoning wasn't that same-sex kids are any worse of than straight kids. All I was saying is that they will have challenges far beyond the ordinary child can comprehend.

I asked two or three times for people to be a little more polite and try and explain it to me but no one will. I have to keep repeating the same thing over and over again and no one is explaining anything to me.

PS. Ramming things down my throat and calling me every name under the sun isn't explaining it to me!

Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

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