Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 04:23PM

gvn wrote: »

Yes, because I assumed you didn't read it. You admitted you didn't read it all, so I was correct in my assumption.

The post oldrnwisr linked to, which he composed himself, is very detailed and thorough when it comes to this subject. If you gave the post time, clicked into the links it contains, and gave those links time, you'd see that your points are baseless. How you could both read the post, and compose your long reply in 10 minutes is amazing. You should just read the post, it addresses all of your arguments and concerns. If you refuse to do this then there's no point arguing with you, which is why I suggested oldrnwisr was wasting his time.

I just told you I read as much as I could in the short time I had available. I'll read it in it's enitirety tonight when I have more time. Also; we're not argueing, we're merely discussing something and trying to figure out if we can finally see eye to eye on it. Atleast i'm not arguing with anyone.

Links234 · 15-09-2012 04:24PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

I'm just worried about the kids is all.

If you're worried about the kids, then you should be for marriage equality. seriously, look at this video and tell me that denying equality is in the best interest of the kids in situations like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZU-HQ_c8bg

15-09-2012 04:25PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

How dare you call people bigots just because they disagree with you and then have the neck to call me small minded because my opinion differs from you! If you want to discuss our views with me, i'm more than open to but stop trying to get a rise out of me because it's not going to happen.

I'm not calling you a bigot because you are disargeeing with me. I am calling you a bigot because you are sticking to you irrational, predjudiced, ill-informed, ignorant, unsupportable and hateful opinion.

Sponge25 wrote: »

What more can I say? I want homosexual people to be happy. I want all people to be happy. I'm a very kind and caring kinda guy. I really am. I do quiet a bit of charity. I'm just worried about the kids is all. If same-sex families are happy do you not think that would make me happy? Ofcourse it would. If that makes me a bigot then I'm happy to be a bigot!

And again, every single study on the matter shows that there is no detriment to being raised by gay parents.
You cannot actually show objectively that there is.

You have no basis to deny gay people rights.

Gbear · 15-09-2012 04:25PM

Sponge, you can't account for taste.

If there's something that illicits a "yuk" response in you that is completely normal.

Having an irrational dislike of something is fine - so long as you acknowledge the irrationality of it.

Personally, I am homophobic. I mean that in the strictest sense. Men kissing weirds me out. It's a fear, not a hatred.
I acknowledge the stupidity of that response and I don't let it inform how I want society to be because it has no rational objective basis.

In order not to be bigoted, you need to put your irrational first line of reactions aside because as a conscious being, you can rise above those impulses.

You can't account for taste but that also means you shouldn't legislate for it. By going solely how you feel and letting that drive your argument at the expense of rational arguments YOU ARE BEING A BIGOT.

15-09-2012 04:28PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

I just told you I read as much as I could in the short time I had available. I'll read it in it's enitirety tonight when I have more time. Also; we're not argueing, we're merely discussing something and trying to figure out if we can finally see eye to eye on it. Atleast i'm not arguing with anyone.

Good, and I hope you give it the time it deserves. The post should be mandatory reading for all who wish to enter threads like these, especially those who wish to argue against adoption rights for same-sex couples.

Well, we are arguing.

You're putting forth one argument, and I (another others) another. That's an argument. (i.e. see the definition of argument: "A discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal.")

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 04:40PM

gvn wrote: »

Good, and I hope you give it the time it deserves. The post should be mandatory reading for all who wish to enter threads like these, especially those who wish to argue against adoption rights for same-sex couples.

Well, we are arguing. You're putting forth one argument, and I (another others) another. That's an argument. (i.e. see the definition of argument: "A discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal.")

I know the definition of the word 'arguement' but that word also has connotations of a hostile disagreement and i'm certainly not hostile to anyone.

Look i'm learning new things here. I don't support gay-marriage now but i'm not against it. It worries me. I couldn't care less what two adults do; I'm worried about the kids being confused and bullied both of which are entirely inevitable if the child is to have any semblence of a normal life! I don't think any reasonable person can make the arguement that a little boy with two daddies isn't going to be bullied an ostracised, HE IS!

To the people calling me a bigot: I'm not a bigot, i'm a very good man. I give the homeless people money whilst everyone else walks past, I give all the charities money. I stand outside shops with a little bucket selling scratch cards for charities. I do all kinds of good things. I'm a good man. I'm not perfect but i'm certainly not a bigot! Anyone calling me a bigot is an idiot!

Links234 · 15-09-2012 04:45PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

I'm worried about the kids being confused and bullied both of which are entirely inevitable if the child is to have any semblence of a normal life!!

I was bullied for wearing glasses, should we oppose glasses so that children would have any semblence of a normal life?

15-09-2012 04:47PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

I know the definition of the word 'arguement' but that word also has connotations of a hostile disagreement and i'm certainly not hostile to anyone.

Look i'm learning new things here. I don't support gay-marriage now but i'm not against it. It worries me. I couldn't care less what two adults do; I'm worried about the kids being confused and bullied both of which are entirely inevitable if the child is to have any semblence of a normal life! I don't think any reasonable person can make the arguement that a little boy with two daddies isn't going to be bullied an ostracised, HE IS!

This seems to be the natural response of most people; as such, I don't call such people bigots, but I don't hold their opinions to have any foundations. I held views on the subject that were almost identical to yours until about three years ago. I was completely against same-sex adoption, and even slightly against same-sex marriage. Reading several threads in this forum (along with a couple of others on this site) made me confront my own prejudices, realise the foundation I'd built my opinion on was completely unreasonable, and thus completely change my views on the issue. I have this forum, and posters like the ones replying to you, to thank for that. It was a very liberating and humbling experience, if I'm being honest.

As long as you're willing to question your opinions. As long as you're willing to examine the foundations of your view when it comes to this issue (and any issue). As long as you're willing to admit you have certain prejudices that can cloud your judgement. As long as you're willing to do these things, people here will discuss matters with you, they'll debate and argue (not in the aggressive sense) with you with the hope they'll change your opinions. If you're unwilling to do the above, then debating with you is pointless: just a waste of all of our time.

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 05:01PM

gvn wrote: »

This seems to be the natural response of most people; as such, I don't call such people bigots, but I don't hold their opinions to have any foundations. I held views on the subject that were almost identical to yours until about three years ago. I was completely against same-sex adoption, and even slightly against same-sex marriage. Reading several threads in this forum (along with a couple of others on this site) made me confront my own prejudices, realise the foundation I'd built my opinion on was completely unreasonable, and thus completely change my views on the issue. I have this forum, and posters like the ones replying to you, to thank for that. It was a very liberating and humbling experience, if I'm being honest.

As long as you're willing to question your opinions. As long as you're willing to examine the foundations of your view when it comes to this issue (and any issue). As long as you're willing to admit you have certain prejudices that can cloud your judgement. As long as you're willing to do these things, people here will discuss matters with you, they'll debate and argue (not in the aggressive sense) with you with the hope they'll change your opinions. If you're unwilling to do the above, then debating with you is pointless: just a waste of all of our time.

See, isn't it better to discuss things like this? TBH, I was trying to learn things from this thread but yet I get called a biggot and closed minded. So how am I supposed to think same-sex marriage supporters are good people if they call people horrible names who don't agree or understand same-sex marriages? Know what I mean!

I came on this thread to learn a little more and discuss it but they call me all kinds of horrible names. Don't try say that bigot isn't a horrible name cause it is. Especially to a man who tries his best day after day to help people.

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 05:02PM

Links234 wrote: »

I was bullied for wearing glasses, should we oppose glasses so that children would have any semblence of a normal life?

Ofcourse not - that's a silly thing to say. Alot of kids get bullied but believe me being bullied for wearing glasses would be nothing compared to being bullied for having two daddies. The kid would never hear the end of it.

Look i'm trying my best to understand your views and adjust me own but I get called every name under the sun. Not exactly good folks on here are yas!?

MagicMarker · 15-09-2012 05:08PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Ofcourse not - that's a silly thing to say. Alot of kids get bullied but believe me being bullied for wearing glasses would be nothing compared to being bullied for having two daddies. The kid would never hear the end of it.

Are you under the illusion that every single child who has two daddies or two mammies will be bullied because of it?

Kids get bullied for ALL sorts of reasons, we don't try and fix that problem by taking away the reasons for being bullied. So we don't outlaw glasses, we don't outlaw being have ginger hair, we don't outlaw being overweight, or being a different religion, or having a funny accent. And we shouldn't stop gay adoption because some children may be bullied!

It's a very poor argument against gay adoption.

EclipsiumRasa · 15-09-2012 05:09PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Ofcourse not - that's a silly thing to say. Alot of kids get bullied but believe me being bullied for wearing glasses would be nothing compared to being bullied for having two daddies. The kid would never hear the end of it.

They damn well would hear the end of it provided the school doesn't tolerate bullying.

Look i'm trying my best to understand your views and adjust me own but I get called every name under the sun. Not exactly good folks on here are yas!?

Well, I just joined this debate. If you don't just the entirety of the opposing view by the worst of what they say, I promise to uphold the same.

If someone's just being an outright prat add them to your ignore list and starve them of attention. I know I do exactly that.

Sierra 117 · 15-09-2012 05:12PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

I couldn't care less what two adults do; I'm worried about the kids being confused and bullied both of which are entirely inevitable if the child is to have any semblence of a normal life!

Neither of those are inevitable.

marienbad · 15-09-2012 05:16PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

What gay people do behind closed doors is their own buisiness but when it comes to marriage I feel it should be between a man and a woman. Marriage is special!

I don't object to civil unions but I just wish homosexual people would be happy with that. I'm not homophobic I just want marriage to between a man and a woman and civil unions to be between homosexuals. Am I wrong for thinking this?

Yes you are wrong.

Corkfeen · 15-09-2012 05:25PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Links234 wrote: »

I was bullied for wearing glasses, should we oppose glasses so that children would have any semblence of a normal life?

Ofcourse not - that's a silly thing to say. Alot of kids get bullied but believe me being bullied for wearing glasses would be nothing compared to being bullied for having two daddies. The kid would never hear the end of it.

Look i'm trying my best to understand your views and adjust me own but I get called every name under the sun. Not exactly good folks on here are yas!?

Erm, to be perfectly blunt I faced some atrocious bullying in school over something that is technically small. I was pretty much ostracized and suffered from severe depression as a result. Children and teenagers can be evil and can make a mountain out of any molehill. The reasoning for my case was something as small as wearing glasses but was worse than many forms of bullying that people experience.

This was ongoing for years. Deal with the bloody bullies rather than saying we'll just prevent the minute things that cause bullying. Preferably don't belittle the experiences of people who have been bullied to pursue a fairly shoddy argument to make it appear like a 'think of the children' argument . Gay couples can be as good parents as any other.

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 05:28PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Are you under the illusion that every single child who has two daddies or two mammies will be bullied because of it?

Kids get bullied for ALL sorts of reasons, we don't try and fix that problem by taking away the reasons for being bullied. So we don't outlaw glasses, we don't outlaw being have ginger hair, we don't outlaw being overweight, or being a different religion, or having a funny accent. And we shouldn't stop gay adoption because some children may be bullied!

It's a very poor argument against gay adoption.

It's not just the bullying but kids will be bullied FAR more harshly for having two daddies and you know it. They'll also experience confusion; They won't have that nurturing love only a female can provide!

EclipsiumRasa · 15-09-2012 05:30PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

What gay people do behind closed doors is their own buisiness but when it comes to marriage I feel it should be between a man and a woman. Marriage is special!

Try and see this from both sides of the debate. Marriage is special: yet if married couples started thinking of themselves as "superior" to say unmarried heterosexual couples in long term relationships they'd be seen as utterly obnoxious, right?

So... if marriage is special, but not superior, what do people actually mean by "marriage is special"?

I don't object to civil unions but I just wish homosexual people would be happy with that.

But the problem as things are not is that civil partnerships don't give children of civil parterships some of the fundamental rights that children of parents from other partnerships enjoy - some extreme but not unrealistic examples include things like property inheritance (in some situations the inheritance goes to the government and children would have to go to court to fight for their claim - without any of their parents assets to pay for their legal team), or technically even the right to see a sick parent ("Sorry, family only").

This is plainly unsatisfactory for many; it treats them as second class citizens because of their parents sexuality. This is why it is so objectionable, why they will not be happy with their current lot.

I'm not homophobic I just want marriage to between a man and a woman and civil unions to be between homosexuals. Am I wrong for thinking this?

That's a bit of a needlessly partisan question.

If I say YES! I'm being judgemental, and on the border of hostility, amn't I?
And if I say NO! I'm kinda telling any gay friends I have I don't support their efforts to have the same rights I enjoy. That's just a betrayal.

So which would you prefer, a reply from someone who is practically getting in your face or a reply from someone who'd abandon a friend rather than side with them?

Its kind of a lose/lose situation when you start using a question like that in a situation like this.

MagicMarker · 15-09-2012 05:32PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

It's not just the bullying but kids will be bullied FAR more harshly for having two daddies and you know it. They'll also experience confusion; They won't have that nurturing love only a female can provide!

No I don't know it and neither do you.

Your second point is, well, ridiculously absurd. Why resort to just making things up? What are you basing this on? That's right, nothing.

EclipsiumRasa · 15-09-2012 05:44PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

It's not just the bullying but kids will be bullied FAR more harshly for having two daddies and you know it.

In countries where same sex marriage has already happened there is a large amount of evidence that this is not the case.

They'll also experience confusion;

Confusion regarding what? Also, as a child I found lots of things confusing. None of them were especially scarring.

They won't have that nurturing love only a female can provide!

Not every female is all that nurturing. Some can really be totally stone cold bitches. Similarly some fathers really can be really far more emotional supportive as parents than mothers.

So such generalisations over how men and women act as parents don't add that much to arguements against gay marriage.

In any case that last point would be an argument for legalising gay marriage for lesbians surely?

Sarky · 15-09-2012 05:45PM

I was bullied in primary school for being more interested in reading than playing sports. Just about as harshly as anyone else who was bullied for anything else.

I think you're wrong about having same-sex parents being worse.

On a tangential note, my flatmate was telling me about an incident yesterday in the games shop he works in. A couple of kids, one of which was black, were playing Magic: The Gathering at a table and the black kid played a good hand on one turn, to which his opponent cried "God damn it you cheating n*gger bastard!"

The flatmate interjected with "Hey, you can't say stuff like that here!", and the black kid replied "Ah, it's all right, these crackers are always trying to keep the black man down."

Bullying is not always bullying.

15-09-2012 05:45PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

It's not just the bullying but kids will be bullied FAR more harshly for having two daddies and you know it. They'll also experience confusion; They won't have that nurturing love only a female can provide!

Again, you are asserting something based on your own narrow, ill informed opinion.

The science on that exact subject is clear: children of gay parents do not lack anything that children of straight parents have.

So either provide the objective evidence you've used to conclude that 1) the kids of gay parents will be bullied more 2) that this would be a detriment and 3) that they won't have "nurturing love".
Otherwise, admit it's all springing from you own narrow opinion.

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 05:47PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

No I don't know it and neither do you.

Your second point is, well, ridiculously absurd. Why resort to just making things up? What are you basing this on? That's right, nothing.

Absurd? Ofcourse children of same-sex marriages will be bullied. We don't need a study to say this. This is the most basic of common sense!

15-09-2012 05:50PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Absurd? Ofcourse children of same-sex marriages will be bullied. We don't need a study to say this. This is the most basic of common sense!

Then in this case, do you agree that children of mixed race couples will be bullied?
Yes or no?

The Mad Hatter · 15-09-2012 05:51PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

It's not just the bullying but kids will be bullied FAR more harshly for having two daddies and you know it. They'll also experience confusion; They won't have that nurturing love only a female can provide!

I'm starting to wonder if you've ever even met a child. You don't give them near enough credit. "Confusion" - honestly :rolleyes:

Putting aside the sexist nonsense that "only a female can provide" [certain kinds of?] nurturing love, are you under the impression that their mothers are the only women that children ever meet?

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 05:52PM

King Mob wrote: »

Then in this case, do you agree that children of mixed race couples will be bullied?
Yes or no?

It's possible but definately not to the extent of same-sex kids! Not even close!

The Mad Hatter · 15-09-2012 05:53PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

King Mob wrote: »

Then in this case, do you agree that children of mixed race couples will be bullied?
Yes or no?

It's possible but definately not to the extent of same-sex kids! Not even close!

What are you basing this on, besides exclamation marks?

15-09-2012 05:55PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

It's possible but definately not to the extent of same-sex kids! Not even close!

Again, ignoring the fact you'll not be able to back that up with a scrap of evidence, why then have you no objection to mixed race marriages when it also results in the bullying of children?

How about the children of poor parents who would be unable to provide them with the latest popular toys, which you claimed would lead to bullying.
Why do you not object to poor people marrying?

Sponge25 · 15-09-2012 05:56PM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

What are you basing this on, besides exclamation marks?

Common sense. I lived life I know what happens.

I've seen a gay kid get his head put under scalding hot water in school when I was young.

MagicMarker · 15-09-2012 05:56PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Absurd? Ofcourse children of same-sex marriages will be bullied. We don't need a study to say this. This is the most basic of common sense!

I'm not saying some children wouldn't get bullied, I'm saying that you don't know that they'll be bullied more so because of it.

MagicMarker · 15-09-2012 05:58PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Common sense. I lived life I know what happens.

I've seen a gay kid get his head put under scalding hot water in school when I was young.

I saw a kid with red hair get being beaten when I was young....

Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

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