New book claims Hitler died in Argentina

Biggins · 15-09-2012 03:59PM

gnfnrhead wrote: »

That Walters guy sounds like a brused ego. He spent ages working on one idea and is refusing to even consider he might be wrong. I haven't read the book, but from this thread it sounds like it backs up its claims, something Walters didn't do in that little outburst. Just "I'm right and you're wrong!"

For what it's worth, I think Hitler did die in Germany, but I'm not opposed to believing that he managed to escape and live out his life somewhere else. Perhaps he had the idea of hiding out for a while before trying again but never got anything going again.

I honestly don't know if the man died in Germany - I am leaning towards not, based on much provided detailed evidence.
The extreme short version is that from '43 alone to '45, much planning was done by Bormann for the future (his planning did not start there however and the book in detail goes further back in many years to explain this along with naming who else was involved and how they did it).
The Germans alone were much know for their documenting of everything under the sun. However the book does not just rely on those documents but also on others around the world from opposing governments and their ministers, agents and much more.

One thing IS clear, the version of history that we generally know or think we know, is apparently not the true full version.

Have to leave now to travel to a Gaga concert in Dublin in five minutes but will be back later to post again!

EchoO · 15-09-2012 04:03PM

Biggins wrote: »

Well unlike Mr. Walters who provided no evidence subsequently of what he opinionates, the many researchers (who are listed) and the two titled book authors, do indeed provide much evidence and detail this in the book.
It would be too much for me to reproduce here (would take days to type out) as its 49 pages alone in back-up text listing of evidence with sources, etc.
This does not also include other evidence including copy's of documents, photographs and photostatic copys of government material (including government interview records from USA, Russian, British intelligence agents and also those enrolled on Hitlers side) throughout the book itself.

Your still free to believe just unsubstantiated opinion.

If the proof is as compelling as you appear to believe it is, that article wouldn't have been stuck on the inside pages of the Daily Mail. It would of been on the front pages of every national newspaper worldwide and would have been the lead story on every news bulletin. You are swallowing a conspiracy theory hook, line and sinker.

EclipsiumRasa · 15-09-2012 04:05PM

What's it going to take to end the Hitler conspiracy stuff?

Newsweek:
"DNA verification confirms recently uncovered taxidermy of Fuhrer lookalike is indeed Adolf Hitler."

Biggins · 15-09-2012 04:05PM

EchoO wrote: »

If the proof is as compelling as you appear to believe it is, that article wouldn't have been stuck on the inside pages of the Daily Mail. It would of been on the front pages of every national newspaper worldwide and would have been the lead story on every news bulletin. You are swallowing a conspiracy theory hook, line and sinker.

Not swallowing it - just more open minded.

... And the book was also in many papers around the world including The Times (England).
After the "Hitler diaries" affair, many papers are afraid to get burned twice!

"Don't shoot the messenger because one does not like the message"

Back later!

EchoO · 15-09-2012 04:10PM

Biggins wrote: »

Not swallowing it - just more open minded.

... And the book was also in many papers around the world including The Times (England).

"Don't shoot the messenger because one does not like the message"

I missed your last post above, so perhaps the hook, line..etc was unmerited. It's one thing to find a book like this to be plausible on the face of it, but it's another to say the claim they are making is proven. Which is where I thought you where coming from.

PapaQuebec · 15-09-2012 04:45PM

Biggins wrote: »

Well unlike Mr. Walters who provided no evidence subsequently of what he opinionates, the many researchers (who are listed) and the two titled book authors, do indeed provide much evidence and detail this in the book.
It would be too much for me to reproduce here (would take days to type out) as its 49 pages alone in back-up text listing of evidence with sources, etc.
This does not also include other evidence including copy's of documents, photographs and photostatic copys of government material (including government interview records from USA, Russian, British intelligence agents and also those enrolled on Hitlers side) throughout the book itself.

Your still free to believe just unsubstantiated opinion.

Just stumbled upon this thread!

I read the book a few months ago, and whilst I started it a sceptic, I found myself increasingly convinced that reports of Hitlers' death in 1945 suited the Allied Powers postwar agenda - though Stalin was never convinced of his death!

The book reinforced my long-held (over 35 years) belief that Martin Bormann did NOT die in Berlin in 1945!

As you have said, it would be a mammoth task (and probably cause problems with the mods) to reproduce sections of the book here!

You could, of course, PM me.......

Wibbs · 15-09-2012 04:45PM

I'd have no issue with the notion of the vast network of financial Nazi piggy banks. The German industrial complex before the war was incredibly rich and was directly involved with financing Hitler and the war(and few were taken to task for it). Can't see them giving up their ill gotten. Plus a fair few very connected Nazis just vanished. I've also no doubt that a fair chunk of the post war period is either ignored, under appreciated or even purposely hidden(the maltreatment and large scale deaths of former German military types and civilians after the war a case in point that covers all three) . This book may well be highlighting some of that money and men escaping the ruins of the Reich.

I'm quite sure there is much to be uncovered about that conflict, much that we take as historical givens today. The victors write the history even with the best of intentions, on top of that the victors wartime propaganda(by necessity at the time) can be taken as fact today and some of that grey area can become black and white.

Take something like the Battle of Britain. The Spitfire is the aircraft that won it in the public mind as that was pushed at the time(give us your scrap pots and pans to build Spitfires etc), yet the Hurricane was generally the better gun platform, easier to fly, could take much more punishment, could outturn the Spit, was in far higher numbers in the skies above England and scored the highest number of air to air victories. It didn't fit the script as well though. Hell even the Germans bought into this and would shout "Achtung Spitfire" and claim that's what shot them down rather than the Hurricane. In recent years the message has gotten out, but the WWW2 propaganda still holds sway.

That's but one example; the Stuka being crap, the military effectiveness of the allied bombing campaign, (in the US)the idea that without the US the European war was lost, the Maginot line was bypassed and then taken and France just gave up, the SS being all wild eyed baby killers, D day turned the tide of war, the chances of Japan actually winning the war under pretty much any circumstances being a few more.

Zab · 15-09-2012 04:59PM

Biggins wrote: »

The now female skull has been found to be from an older person, one much older than Eva was at the time of her supposed death.

By much older you mean aged between 20 and 40? That said it seems to be accepted that it's unlikely to be Braun's skull.

I don't claim that it's 100% that Hitler died in the bunker, nor do I even claim to be aware of all the public facts, but from what you've posted here there's no evidence the he lives that's as strong as the witness accounts of his and Eva's dead bodies. You point out that it could have just looked like Hitler, which is true, but without good evidence supporting that claim I see no reason to give it particular credence.

PapaQuebec · 15-09-2012 05:04PM

Zab wrote: »

By much older you mean aged between 20 and 40? That said it seems to be accepted that it's unlikely to be Braun's skull.

I don't claim that it's 100% that Hitler died in the bunker, nor do I even claim to be aware of all the public facts, but from what you've posted here there's no evidence the he lives that's as strong as the witness accounts of his and Eva's dead bodies. You point out that it could have just looked like Hitler, which is true, but without good evidence supporting that claim I see no reason to give it particular credence.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but I have read the book which almost totally debunks the theory that Hitler died in the bunker, especially the "witness accounts"!!

EchoO · 15-09-2012 05:44PM

In 2003, Mark Benecke, a German forensic biologist confirmed that teeth kept in the former KGB's archive were Hitler's.

http://wiki2.benecke.com/index.php?title=2003_AIR:_Hitler%C2%B4s_Skull_%26_Teeth

Red Hand · 15-09-2012 05:44PM

Hitler is alive and well in Dublin. He's getting the messages with Eva in this exclusive paparnazi snap.:pac:

http://gombeennation.blogspot.ie/2010/10/hitler-on-luas.html

PapaQuebec · 15-09-2012 05:49PM

EchoO wrote: »

In 2003, Mark Benecke, a German forensic biologist confirmed that teeth kept in the former KGB's archive were Hitler's.

http://wiki2.benecke.com/index.php?title=2003_AIR:_Hitler%C2%B4s_Skull_%26_Teeth

Nothing at that link!

EchoO · 15-09-2012 05:55PM

PapaQuebec wrote: »

Nothing at that link!

It works for me.

gnfnrhead · 15-09-2012 06:01PM

EchoO wrote: »

It works for me.

The link works but it leads to a blank Wiki page with no text.

EchoO · 15-09-2012 06:03PM

gnfnrhead wrote: »

The link works but it leads to a blank Wiki page with no text.

I don't know what's going on, when I click on it I get the article. Anyway here it is..

Hitler´s Skull & Teeth

[All AIR publications] [MBs Publikationen]

I am a true nerd I guess: Spectacles, checkered pattern shirt, no radio, no TV — a forensic entomologist by profession. So when National Geographic Channel called and asked the allegedly "most famous forensic biologist on earth" (my editorial house's claim, definitely not mine) to join into an investigation on the remains of Adolf Hitler, I nerdily thought it just a theoretical enterprise, and said yes. As with many people born in Germany long after World War II, I, to a large extent, regarded Hitler as a very bad, extremely cruel joke against mankind. I had never quite thought of Hitler as a real, physically present person. I have no fascination of any sort with the guy. Just look at him (see Figure 1) — he was a jerk amongst jerks.

What is more, most Germans do not know that Hitler's corpse was destroyed only around the year 1970 — except for a piece of skull bone, and his teeth. Since 1945, the charred body had rested secretly in Eastern German soil, in the city of Magdeburg. Yuri Andropov, then head of the KGB, later head of the Soviet Union, ordered his agents in 1970 to finally — and this time really — burn up the body. Afterwards, the ashes were spread into a nearby river. The grapevine made this ultra-secret action locally known in Eastern Germany, but it was not at all in Western Germany (which is where I was living).

Weird fact no. 1: Hitler had ordered his body to be burned to ashes. In the last days of the war in Berlin, it was, however, a little difficult to find enough fuel to burn a human corpse. Therefore, one of the last orders of the crazy man was to obtain burning liquid. Hitler's driver could only obtain around 180 liters (about 50 U.S. gallons) so that after burning, Hitler's body, though severely blackened on the outside, still had its inner organs and bones intact ("intact" in forensic lingo, I mean). Even after death, post-card-painter-gone-nuts Adolf Hitler was a loser.

And so, literally, I had stumbled into a most bizarre forensic investigation. Since no high-resolution color photographs of the remains existed, National Geographic Channel bribed me a way into the archives, and also put me in touch with the few still-living eyewitnesses of the events of April 30 (Hitler's suicide) to May 8, 1945 (the final day of Word War II). I say "stumbled" because the first archive I went into (the State Archive) was not only covered in thick layers of dust, but was also filled with piles of cardboard boxes, sheets, and drawers gone wild (see Figure 2). When the archivist opened the box containing Hitler's skull piece, I nearly cracked up laughing: She had stored the thing in a floppy disk container, most likely because of the nice little plastic lock that is attached to the front of the box (see Figure 3).

Weird fact no. 2: Hitler's head rests, not in peace, but on two sheets of Kleenex in a floppy disk storage case.

The actual identification of Hitler's remains (and therefore the confirmation of his death based on physical evidence) was published in 1972. It was performed by comparing the teeth of the remains to the dental schemata drawn by Hitler's dentist. The teeth are not located in the State Archives, where one might expect them to be, but in the former KGB archive, which is in a different part of Moscow. The interior design of the KGB building looks exactly like in a James Bond movie: Light blue curtains, cream-color telephones without dials, and numerous brown 'n cozy armchairs (see Figure 4).

The teeth are stored inside of large overseas travel suitcases, packed together with Hitler's uniform and the original files of the death investigation. The reports of Hitler's dentist, Blaschke (who had formerly studied in the U.S.), and other witnesses clearly show that the teeth in that little cigar box must indeed be the Fuehrer's (see Figure 5). The details all accord. For example, a most massive metal bridge that is well preserved can also be seen on X-rays taken of Hitler's head in 1944. (He had complained about headaches after an attempted assassination, that is why the X rays were taken.)

In the 1990s, my colleague Michel Perrier, a university odontologist from Lausanne with profound knowledge of, and practice (some would say obsession) in, forensic odontology, went a step further and compared original movie footage in which Hitler shows his teeth whilst grimacing during speeches, or smirking (see Figure 1) with the teeth from the archive. He could identify shiny structures (metal artifacts) on the sides, and severe paradontosis of the lower front teeth in the movies as well as in the actual teeth.

Weird fact no. 3: Hitler's teeth were so bad — and uniquely bad — that his teeth alone made it possible to identify his corpse. The state of his teeth might also explain why everybody complained about Hitler's oral malodor.

His mistress Eva Braun's teeth, by the way, are kept in an even smaller, even crappier cigar box than the one containing Hitler's teeth.

Did I feel the cold touch of history when examining Hitler's remains (see Figure 6)? No. But being a nerd, I believe that it is very appropriate to see the madman's remains in pieces, spread in different archives over Moscow, and basically forgotten under dust.

PapaQuebec · 15-09-2012 06:30PM

EchoO wrote: »

I don't know what's going on, when I click on it I get the article. Anyway here it is..

Thanks for posting the text, I had the same problem as a prior poster - a page with no text!

However:

"Just look at him (see Figure 1) — he was a jerk amongst jerks"

"Even after death, post-card-painter-gone-nuts Adolf Hitler was a loser."

"But being a nerd, I believe that it is very appropriate to see the madman's remains in pieces"

Is this the language of a serious scientist?
or that of someone paid to make a "shock/expose" docu for that bastion of truth: Nat Geo TV?

"So when National Geographic Channel called and asked the allegedly "most famous forensic biologist on earth" (my editorial house's claim, definitely not mine) to join into an investigation on the remains of Adolf Hitler"

If the claim embarrasses the author - why repeat it?

"When the archivist opened the box containing Hitler's skull piece, I nearly cracked up laughing: She had stored the thing in a floppy disk container, most likely because of the nice little plastic lock that is attached to the front of the box (see Figure 3)."

That the skull fragment has been proven to be neither Hitler's nor Brauns bears some repeating, yet it doesn't faze this author at all!

That someone matching Hitlers description was shot in the bunker and their remains subsequently burned is not in doubt, but in the view of the authors of "Grey Wolf" that man was Gustav Weber - Hitlers long time body-double (indeed the final video images of "Hitler" (meeting H Jugend members) have been proven to be of Weber!

My offer of the books stands!

Fuinseog · 15-09-2012 06:49PM

Dotrel wrote: »

Hitler ruined the Hitler moustache for everyone. :mad:

a moustache in general is a sign of evil-Sadam Hussein, Stalin.

dj jarvis · 15-09-2012 07:07PM

Fuinseog wrote: »

a moustache in general is a sign of evil-Sadam Hussein, Stalin.

thatcher did not have one, and neither did mao , being a homicidal megalomaniac child killing mofo is a much better sign

Shryke · 15-09-2012 07:18PM

Fuinseog wrote: »

a moustache in general is a sign of evil-Sadam Hussein, Stalin.

Charlie Chaplin, Ned Flanders..

kowloon · 15-09-2012 07:48PM

Saila wrote: »

have you not seen the boys from Brazil?

They were in some film I can't remember the name of.

EchoO · 15-09-2012 08:04PM

PapaQuebec wrote: »

Thanks for posting the text, I had the same problem as a prior poster - a page with no text!

However:

"Just look at him (see Figure 1) — he was a jerk amongst jerks"

"Even after death, post-card-painter-gone-nuts Adolf Hitler was a loser."

"But being a nerd, I believe that it is very appropriate to see the madman's remains in pieces"

Is this the language of a serious scientist?
or that of someone paid to make a "shock/expose" docu for that bastion of truth: Nat Geo TV?

"So when National Geographic Channel called and asked the allegedly "most famous forensic biologist on earth" (my editorial house's claim, definitely not mine) to join into an investigation on the remains of Adolf Hitler"

If the claim embarrasses the author - why repeat it?

"When the archivist opened the box containing Hitler's skull piece, I nearly cracked up laughing: She had stored the thing in a floppy disk container, most likely because of the nice little plastic lock that is attached to the front of the box (see Figure 3)."

That the skull fragment has been proven to be neither Hitler's nor Brauns bears some repeating, yet it doesn't faze this author at all!

That someone matching Hitlers description was shot in the bunker and their remains subsequently burned is not in doubt, but in the view of the authors of "Grey Wolf" that man was Gustav Weber - Hitlers long time body-double (indeed the final video images of "Hitler" (meeting H Jugend members) have been proven to be of Weber!

My offer of the books stands!

What he looks like is and the manner in which he wrote this article is immaterial. He's a forensic biologist who also happens to be a punk rocker, but that doesn't make his credentials any less credible. He compared the teeth to X-rays taken of Hitler's head in 1944 and concluded that they matched.

http://wunder2.greyfalcon.us/picturesb/hitlersk.jpg

PapaQuebec · 15-09-2012 08:30PM

EchoO wrote: »

What he looks like is and the manner in which he wrote this article is immaterial. He's a forensic biologist who also happens to be a punk rocker, but that doesn't make his credentials any less credible. He compared the teeth to X-rays taken of Hitler's head in 1944 and concluded that they matched.

There has been so much fakery and smoke-and-mirrors associated with events in the bunker in 1945 that it's hard to make head or tail of a lot of it.

As I said (or I think I did) I have read extensively on the subject over the last 35-or-so years - and not with the mindset of a "conspiracy theorist"!

I read the book with an open mind that tended toward scepticism and was amazed at the amount of verifiable data it contained, and finished it with the distinct impression that "we" haven't been told the truth - or at least much of it!

Why a cover-up (if indeed there was one)? I think it suits many that it's not investigated further.
Many "friendly States" benefitted greatly from the influx of looted gold etc from Nazi stocks - gold production and reserves were (and are) strictly monitored and it's suspicious that certain South American countries' (but not SA alone) reserves seemingly tripled or better between 1939 and 1945 with no documentation to establish where this gold came from!

The authors' contention - backed with verifiable documentation - is that this Gold (and antiques, diamonds etc) was Bormann's price for sanctuary at the end of a war which he was convinced was over as early as 1942

I could go on all evening!

Book is here for anyone interested:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ujvjrojbaofuaoa/u3iqF2pHSm

indioblack · 15-09-2012 10:51PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Well the Brits weren't really into democracy, were they?

They may have had democracy on their own island, but it certainly didn't exist anywhere else in their empire.

Now I see what you're getting at. But what's this fascination with the British?
As imperialists, was their behaviour so different compared to other imperial powers in history?

indioblack · 15-09-2012 11:10PM

Biggins wrote: »

The country that the main culprits ended up in, became very rich between 1943 and '45 in particular.
There are a number of reasons as to why and what the future was supposed to hold for those escaping but whatever those reasons, keep the following in mind and this is only a typical example:

Bormann was able to create 980 front companies, with 770 of those in neutral countries including 98 alone in Argentina. There were to handle many, many businesses created and/or invested in. Bormann was a financial genius (By 1945, Bormann had amassed alone, some 16 million in Swedish Kroner & 12 million in Turkish Lira)
One section of the book (with great detail and documentation provided) goes on to explain the staggering - and it is really staggering! - wealth amassed and how it was diversified later (look up "Project Eagle Flight", the acquisition of shares/equity in foreign countries).

Thanks for the reply - it's an intriguing story.
Nevertheless, I find it hard to think of Hitler leaving Germany.
He had invested so much of himself in the country - with his own agenda that led Germany to disaster - that, by the wars end, his life, (and death), was tied in to the fate of Germany.
But I can envisage others at the top of his regime wishing to escape.
Enjoy the concert!

later12 · 15-09-2012 11:12PM

From the OP's link, by way of providing reasoning:

The book also accuses US intelligence of being complicit in the scam in return for access to Nazi war technology.

I notice lots of accusations, but very little evidence.

The above makes particularly little sense. The war was over. The Germans had been beaten. Whatever evidence was to be had was the property of the Allies as praemia belli. It doesn't make logical sense for the above to be true.

So in the absence of a compelling logic, the authors would need to introduce some positive evidence or GTFO.

later12 · 16-09-2012 12:28AM

Amalgam wrote: »

I don't think Hitler got a chance to sail the Southern seas..

I rented out 'Blind Spot' a few years back, from Laser on South Great Georges Street.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0311320/

It is basically.. Hitler's secretary, Traudl Junge (16 March 1920 – 10 February 2002), talking, talking, talking.. amazing person, amazing life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traudl_Junge

(Could an Admin\Moderator embed the following image please..? ..then delete this text? Thank you.)

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/2999/mv5bmtk4ndqwmzyzml5bml5.jpg

She is the same person who is featured as one of the main characters in the film, 'Downfall'.

She's also on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fst-KFybn8o

(No but really, she is on youtube)

Biggins · 16-09-2012 11:40AM

Zab wrote: »

By much older you mean aged between 20 and 40? That said it seems to be accepted that it's unlikely to be Braun's skull.

I don't claim that it's 100% that Hitler died in the bunker, nor do I even claim to be aware of all the public facts, but from what you've posted here there's no evidence the he lives that's as strong as the witness accounts of his and Eva's dead bodies. You point out that it could have just looked like Hitler, which is true, but without good evidence supporting that claim I see no reason to give it particular credence.

The book goes into this matter in some serious detail.
I would suggest at least a reading of it.

EchoO wrote: »

In 2003, Mark Benecke, a German forensic biologist confirmed that teeth kept in the former KGB's archive were Hitler's.

http://wiki2.benecke.com/index.php?title=2003_AIR:_Hitler%C2%B4s_Skull_%26_Teeth

Indeed, he consider they were the same teeth because he judged them from 30/40 year old "movie footage in which Hitler shows his teeth whilst grimacing during speeches", Seriously?
Considering that one of the now well known doubles-was spot on a replica of the main man, the Germans were very exact who they picked in similar distinctions.
Also using old b/w footage to judge teeth (that are where now?) ...And came from a now confirmed older female skull!

I would be very sceptical at least.

I quote one section of the book:

According to the book Nazi Millionaires, by Kenneth D. Alford and Theodore P. Savas, Walter Hirschfeld, a former SS officer working for the U.S. Counterintelligence Corps in Germany interviewed Fegelein's father Hans in late September 1945.

Hans Fegelein stated to Hirschfeld that "I think I can say with certainty that the Fuhrer is alive. I have received word through a special messenger [an SS Sturmbannfhrer] after his death had already been announced". The courier reportedly relayed the following message from Hermann Fegelein: "The Fuhrer and I are safe and well. Don't worry about me; you will get further word from me, even if it is not for some time."

The courier also said that on the day when the Fuhrer, Hermann, and Eva Braun left Berlin, there was a sharp counterattack in Berlin in order to win a flying strip where they could take off. Hirschfeld was said to have been dumbfounded: Many SS officers claim the Fuhrer is dead and his body was burned! However, Hans Fegelein allegedly assured him that it was a smokescreen: "They are all trusted and true SS men who have been ordered to make these statements. Keep your eye on South America."

Another (of many interesting) section:

JUST AFTER THE STROKE OF MIDNIGHT as April 28, 1945, began, while the rest of the occupants of the Fuhrerbunker were trying to get some sleep, Hitler's escape got under way. The Fuhrer, his beloved dog Blondi, Eva Braun, Bormann, Fegelein, and six trusted soldiers from the SS Guard Battalion "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" slipped quietly away through the Vorbunker and up to his private quarters in the Old Reich Chancellery building. The light concrete panelwas slid aside, revealing the secret escape tunnel. At the end of the electrically lit passageway, down a slight incline, they entered the wider space of the third-level bunker. When the party reached the chamber, they found waiting for them two people whom Muller had had brought there from up the tunnel via the underground railway: two doubles, a stand-in for Hitler (probably Gustav Weber) and one for Eva Braun.

GUSTAV WEBER HAD BEEN STANDING IN FOR HITLER since July 20, 1944, when the Fuhrer had been wounded in the bomb attempt on his life at his Wolf's Lair field headquarters near Rastenburg in East Prussia. Hitler had suffered recurrent aftereffects from his injuries; he tired easily, and he was plagued by infected wounds from splinters of the oak table that had protected him from the full force of the blast. (His use of penicillin, taken from Allied troops captured or killed in the D-Day landings, had probably saved his life.)

Weber had impersonated Hitler on his last officially photographed appearance, when he handed out medals to members of the Hitler Youth in the Chancellery garden on March 20, 1945. Weber's uncanny resemblance to Hitler deceived even those quite close to him, and on that occasion the Reichsjugendfuhrer (Hitler Youth National Leader) Artur Axman was either taken in or warned to play along. The only thing liable to betray the imposture was that Weber's left hand suffered from occasional bouts of uncontrollable trembling. Bormann had taken Hitler's personal doctor into his confidence, and SS Lt. Col. Dr. Ludwig Stumpfegger had treated Weber with some success. Weber was often kept sedated, but his trembling became more noticeable when he was under extreme stress.

Eva Braun's double was simply perfect. Her name is unknown, but she had been trawled from the 'stable' of young actresses that Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels, the self-appointed 'patron of the German cinema', maintained for his own pleasure. The physical similarity was amazing, and after film makeup and hairdressing experts had done their work it was very difficult to tell the two young women apart.

I'll just post the following as it might hint at why some papers are not too keen to delve too deeply into the matter now of Hitler (especially given the current inflamed Jewish situation, etc):

PUBLISHER'S NOTE

When we were first presented with the idea for Grey Wolf: The Escape of Adolf Hitler, our initial reaction was to dismiss it as just another conspiracy theory. Everyone knows that Hitler and Eva Braun took their lives in the bunker to escape the humiliation and certain execution that awaited them. However, we agreed to give it serious consideration due to the stellar reputations of the authors, Simon Dunstan and Gerrard Williams. We were also encouraged by the recent independent discovery that the remains recovered at the bunker were not those of Hitler or Eva Braun.

Upon reading the proposal and challenging the authors over a period of several months, we were convinced that they had raised serious questions that called the conventional wisdom into question, and we therefore decided to publish the book.
The authors have spent the last five years researching this subject, traveling the globe, interviewing eyewitnesses, unearthing documents, and piecing together a mountain of evidence that has convinced them of a fact almost too horrible to contemplate: that Adolf Hitler escaped punishment and lived out his life in relative tranquility in Patagonia until his death in 1962.

This prospect is so despicable that we contemplated not publishing the book out of concern for those who would be offended by the mere prospect of Hitler's escape, whether or not they found the argument credible. However, after much consideration, and a lengthy editorial process during which the authors were challenged to support their facts, we believe it is possible they may have uncovered the truth behind one of the greatest deceptions in history.

This book raises many intriguing questions, but it does not conclusively settle the issue. Perhaps this is a mystery that will never be solved, as with so many other moments in time. Or perhaps, once this issue is in the public arena, other facts will come to light that will bring us closer to a definitive answer. The authors wrote this book in a search for the truth, and they may have found it. Inevitably, you, the reader, will be the ultimate judge.

Short version: The book gives evidence, much evidence and leaves the reader to draw ones own judgement. A horrible conclusion about Hitler escaping, a possible judgement that might be not as the victors of a war (who indeed get to write history), would have you just swallow!

There is also one other thing to consider.
Those close to Hitler were fanatical about their leader. (Hell, the whole of Germany at one stage was fanatical at one stage). They were the most fanatical of the lot and in a lot of cases, were especially researched and thus hand-picked given their absolute loyalty to a man they often considered on a god level, to do as he commanded. They often felt 'touched by the hand of god', an deep honour just to work for and in close proximity to their glorious leader.
The level of their willingness to do anything for their "Herr Furher" cannot be contemplated fully for the time it was - however we can see similar shades of it even today in the fanatics of the modern world who will do anything for their own reasons and even willing to die at the behest/orders of those above them.

EchoO · 16-09-2012 12:32PM

Biggins wrote: »

Indeed, he consider they were the same teeth because he judged them from 30/40 year old "movie footage in which Hitler shows his teeth whilst grimacing during speeches", Seriously?
Considering that one of the now well known doubles-was spot on a replica of the main man, the Germans were very exact who they picked in similar distinctions.
Also using old b/w footage to judge teeth (that are where now?) ...And came from a now confirmed older female skull!

I would be very sceptical at least.

That is a complete misrepresentation of what Benecke did. What you are referring to is work done by university odontologist Michel Perrier in the 90's. What Mark Benecke actually did was compare the teeth to X-rays taken of Hitler's head in 1944 and concluded that they matched.

http://wunder2.greyfalcon.us/picturesb/hitlersk.jpg

Biggins · 16-09-2012 12:48PM

EchoO wrote: »

That is a complete misrepresentation of what Benecke did. What you are referring to is work done by university odontologist Michel Perrier in the 90's. What Mark Benecke actually did was compare the teeth to X-rays taken of Hitler's head in 1944 and concluded that they matched.

http://wunder2.greyfalcon.us/picturesb/hitlersk.jpg

Apologies if I read part of the linked piece you supplied, wrong.
The chap that assessed the teeth though from just looking at film footage however, was simply still pushing his luck to say the least.

On the matter of the supposed x-ray, on the reading of the book you will learn that from '43 onwards, preparations for what eventually (possibly) occurred in '45 had been going on.

Knowing how exact the Germans like to be in detail (documentating it also) and knowing that after the mess that was created across Europe and Britain (besides many other countries) were not just going to accept that Hitler was dead and leave it at that, they (a select ultra-loyal picked few) organised from '43 material to - to put it bluntly - cover their ass and the possible path of Hitlers.

Knowing that the USA, Britian, etc would eventually go looking for usable confirmation evidence, how hard would it have been to x-ray a double (the much known Weber for example) and keep those teeth on file previously?
Remember, many close to Hitler that had know him for many, years could NOT even tell the difference between the double(s) and Hitler!
If it was Weber that was later killed - his teeth from earlier would thus be on file.
(They also knew (this was evident with their planning) what was coming possibly in the future - and they were right.)
...And Weber and all Hitlers doubles were picked, checked, etc after much checking including x-rays and health conditions.

EchoO · 16-09-2012 01:53PM

Biggins wrote: »

Knowing that the USA, Britian, etc would eventually go looking for usable confirmation evidence, how hard would it have been to x-ray a double (the much known Weber for example) and keep those teeth on file previously?
Remember, many close to Hitler that had know him for many, years could NOT even tell the difference between the double(s) and Hitler!
If it was Weber that was later killed - his teeth from earlier would thus be on file.
(They also knew (this was evident with their planning) what was coming possibly in the future - and they were right.)
...And Weber and all Hitlers doubles were picked, checked, etc after much checking including x-rays and health conditions.

In May 1945 Soviet officers showed a dental bridge to Hilter's dentist's technician Fritz Echtmann and his dental assistant Käthe Heusermann and they both identified it as being Hitler's. The Doctor who took the x-ray wrote a chronological record of his treatment of Hilter which was later published as a book, I assume an account of the taking of that x-ray is in there.

New book claims Hitler died in Argentina

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