Enterprise Generator Van Enters Service

Chrisplayfair · 10-09-2012 12:21PM #1

After almost 3 years of this project, the first van has entered service working the 0650 Central / Dublin. Making a comeback is the IWT Favourite Loco 209! The loco's first visit to Belfast since October 2010....It is planned that the other 2 diagrams will have Gen Vans introduced in the coming weeks.

Video of 209 on the 0935 Dublin / Central with the Gen Van @ Dunmurry :

http://chrisplayfair.smugmug.com/Travel/2012-Photos/September-2012/25163506_KKj2Ct#!i=2078244198&k=d7nZmrK

Captain Chaos · 10-09-2012 12:34PM

Cheers for that update. 208 is back after it's double failure on the Enterprise too.

Chrisplayfair · 10-09-2012 01:02PM

She is indeed...Had her last night on the 1900 to Dublin...

comradestalin · 10-09-2012 01:20PM

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

After almost 3 years of this project, the first van has entered service working the 0650 Central / Dublin. Making a comeback is the IWT Favourite Loco 209! The loco's first visit to Belfast since October 2010....It is planned that the other 2 diagrams will have Gen Vans introduced in the coming weeks.

Video of 209 on the 0935 Dublin / Central with the Gen Van @ Dunmurry :

http://chrisplayfair.smugmug.com/Travel/2012-Photos/September-2012/25163506_KKj2Ct#!i=2078244198&k=d7nZmrK

Christopher,

Yes I was on the 0650 this morning. When I showed up at Central and could not hear the HEP I wondered if there was something wrong, then looked at the train and saw the gen van in place. I signed up here in order to mention it, but you'd gotten in ahead of me

Let's hope this sorts out the reliability problems.

BTW great photo site.

Chrisplayfair · 10-09-2012 01:21PM

Many thanks for that!

Millem · 10-09-2012 06:08PM

Thanks for posting the video Chris. Great to see MK3s back in service on Irish metals !!

dowlingm · 10-09-2012 06:45PM

and it only took three years from when the first EGV was designated... :rolleyes:

good news all the same.

gordy712 · 10-09-2012 10:17PM

Added a few photos from today of MK3 Gen Van 89604 hauled by 209 on the 09:35 Enterprise from Dublin to Belfast at Lisburn & the 18:10 Enterprise from Belfast to Dublin at Portadown to the following site

http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/25301801_BkHfb2#!i=2079165278&k=tK48hFf

highlydebased · 10-09-2012 10:20PM

Surely this will improve reliability of services with the gen van immeasurably

Hopefully it will be successful and the rest will be pressed into service

SeanW · 10-09-2012 11:04PM

Nice pics Chris and Gordy

comradestalin · 10-09-2012 11:10PM

I find it interesting how similar the 201s sound to 071s whenever the HEP is off.

CIE · 10-09-2012 11:33PM

highlydebased wrote: »

Surely this will improve reliability of services with the gen van immeasurably

Hopefully it will be successful and the rest will be pressed into service

Not likely.

And if it "does", then consider the fact that a technology that works everywhere else in the world has its equivalent doubling of moving parts imposed on you unnecessarily.

comradestalin · 10-09-2012 11:40PM

I think it's likely alright, the Cork services (which there are more of) don't see anything like the kind of locomotive failure rates the Enterprise sees.

Captain Chaos · 10-09-2012 11:56PM

CIE wrote: »

Not likely.

And if it "does", then consider the fact that a technology that works everywhere else in the world has its equivalent doubling of moving parts imposed on you unnecessarily.

I'd say it is likely. Plus it will now allow the 201s to stay in service longer as there will now be less strain on them, well the ones that have not been wrecked from HEP like 209 and now 227 seems to be.

In fairness the last Enterprise failure before 233 failed was a fuel pump failure on 208 twice. The brake software problems between the 201s and DD stock seems to have been solved years ago so now if the 201s are looked after the failure rates should now drop a good bit.

What will be interesting will be the fuel consumption. A 201 on HEP can not complete two return trips on a full tank of fuel. While the 201s will now get more milage on a full tank how much do the Mk3 gennys use? Will it cost more in fuel in the long run. I'm sure IE and Translink have looked into that though,

comradestalin · 11-09-2012 12:13AM

I'd say the 201s have plenty of life in them yet. IE appear to have committed themselves to locomotive haulage on the Belfast and Cork mainlines. That much is obvious.

WRT fuel usage, I doubt it is a problem, bear in mind that until a few years ago most services on the island were loco hauled with gen vans, this is merely a return to previous form. The actual electrical power load of a train is not especially great, a fraction of the power required for traction.

I think the compelling case for the Enterprise was not the fuel saving but the lower maintenance overhead ie having to maintain and refuel only one vehicle rather than two. Back in the day I reckon they thought they'd have a clockface timetable going and that it would help reduce the turnaround time.

I don't think the 201s had problems supplying the HEP load; I think it was the fact that the HEP would keep the engine spinning at high revs for long periods with little load.

dublinman1990 · 11-09-2012 02:10AM

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

After almost 3 years of this project, the first van has entered service working the 0650 Central / Dublin. Making a comeback is the IWT Favourite Loco 209! The loco's first visit to Belfast since October 2010....It is planned that the other 2 diagrams will have Gen Vans introduced in the coming weeks.

Video of 209 on the 0935 Dublin / Central with the Gen Van @ Dunmurry :

http://chrisplayfair.smugmug.com/Travel/2012-Photos/September-2012/25163506_KKj2Ct#!i=2078244198&k=d7nZmrK

Good god, the train in that video is flying down the track at a wonderful speed.

How much speed would be considered the norm when comparing the old HEP to the Gen Vans?

Chrisplayfair · 11-09-2012 02:21AM

Still achieve line speed (90MPH) no problem. I was talking to someone this evening about the speed actually...They noticed a difference from Fairview to Killester. Usually hitting 50/55 just before Killester...Without HEP your looking at around 60..62...Which isn't much but isn't bad either really

CIE · 11-09-2012 02:28AM

comradestalin wrote: »

I think it's likely alright, the Cork services (which there are more of) don't see anything like the kind of locomotive failure rates the Enterprise sees

That's got nothing to do with locomotive-generated HEP. IE is deliberately doing it wrong, AFAICS (how come it works everywhere else but not Ireland?) So now you have a car with no revenue seats being hauled around because IE somehow doesn't know how to do something that the rest of the world does.

comradestalin · 11-09-2012 08:41AM

Chris,

I thought yesterday that the acceleration on the train was improved, which is theoretically possible I guess given that there is more power available for traction. But that could have been a placebo effect. The train arrived in Dublin a minute or two ahead of schedule but, as usual, crawled at what felt like about 40mph most of the way from Malahide.

CIE :

That's got nothing to do with locomotive-generated HEP.

Then what is it to do with ?

IE is deliberately doing it wrong, AFAICS (how come it works everywhere else but not Ireland?)

I don't have a good answer for why it works in other places but not Ireland, but I'd be prepared to accept the theory that the Enterprise has a relatively short journey with relatively frequent stops and this is harder on the engine.

And I'm sorry, but the idea that Translink and IE are both deliberately (you used the word - "deliberately") conspiring to sabotage HEP is just a little bit ridiculous. Why would they deliberately screw up their train service, waste fuel and provoke embarassing questions in both the Assembly and the Dáil ?

So now you have a car with no revenue seats being hauled around

As is standard for every locomotive hauled service in the history of Irish railways including the Cork service ..

because IE somehow doesn't know how to do something that the rest of the world does.

I doubt it is a case of IE not knowing how to solve the problem. I suspect that the 201 HEP design is simply deficient and IE/NIR were sadly careless when they were specifying it over 20 years ago.

goingnowhere · 11-09-2012 09:39AM

CIE wrote: »

That's got nothing to do with locomotive-generated HEP. IE is deliberately doing it wrong, AFAICS (how come it works everywhere else but not Ireland?) So now you have a car with no revenue seats being hauled around because IE somehow doesn't know how to do something that the rest of the world does.

Because we use a dual 380V AC tri phase train power bus (i.e modern), while the bulk of the world uses a single bus and single phase 1000V DC or AC system (early 20th century). UK HST uses a similar system 415V AC system.

For a whole pile of reasons a tri phase system is much cheaper to fit to each coach as you don't need to lug around a motor alternator or static inverter/converter under each coach. That's a single point of failure, while the Irish system you can lose one power bus and still have full lighting and limited heating as well as all the auxiliary systems like the doors working

Downside is to generate 380V AC you need constant RPM on the generator to deliver a 50hz AC signal, once you get as little as 2hz off its no good. That fine is you have a dedicated generator set as the power demand is fairly constant, running it off a traction engine isn't exactly ideally especially given the binary drive style on Dublin Belfast of notch 8 then coast/stop.

CIE · 11-09-2012 05:12PM

goingnowhere wrote: »

Because we use a dual 380V AC tri phase train power bus (i.e modern), while the bulk of the world uses a single bus and single phase 1000V DC or AC system (early 20th century). UK HST uses a similar system 415V AC system.

For a whole pile of reasons a tri phase system is much cheaper to fit to each coach as you don't need to lug around a motor alternator or static inverter/converter under each coach. That's a single point of failure, while the Irish system you can lose one power bus and still have full lighting and limited heating as well as all the auxiliary systems like the doors working.

Downside is to generate 380V AC you need constant RPM on the generator to deliver a 50hz AC signal, once you get as little as 2hz off its no good. That fine is you have a dedicated generator set as the power demand is fairly constant, running it off a traction engine isn't exactly ideally especially given the binary drive style on Dublin Belfast of notch 8 then coast/stop.

So because of an allegedly modern three-phase AC power bus system, HEP suddenly doesn't work? Not buying that one, sorry. I don't see how it couldn't be adapted.

comradestalin · 11-09-2012 10:07PM

Not buying that one, sorry. I don't see how it couldn't be adapted.

What are you suggesting are the reasons why it was not ?

goingnowhere · 12-09-2012 12:38AM

CIE wrote: »

So because of an allegedly modern three-phase AC power bus system, HEP suddenly doesn't work? Not buying that one, sorry. I don't see how it couldn't be adapted.

HEP is to provide 380v AC Tri Phase

The UK and European standard is a 1000 V AC/DC ETH system

Both are radically different, Irish Rail's tri phase setup is by far the best power solution when the bulk of the load is air conditioning based (about 25kw per coach), it means less to go wrong and less equipment under each coach.

Only downside is you need a 380V AC generator, easy thats what the Mk2 and Mk3 generator vans are for. The 201 HEP solution was a cost cutting exercise by IE and NIR not recommended by EMD

In the 21st century modern power electronics you could probably do a AC-DC-AC inverter to solve the problem and eliminate the rpm requirements

CIE · 12-09-2012 02:13AM

goingnowhere wrote: »

HEP is to provide 380v AC Tri Phase

The UK and European standard is a 1000 V AC/DC ETH system

Both are radically different, Irish Rail's tri phase setup is by far the best power solution when the bulk of the load is air conditioning based (about 25kw per coach), it means less to go wrong and less equipment under each coach.

Only downside is you need a 380V AC generator, easy thats what the Mk2 and Mk3 generator vans are for. The 201 HEP solution was a cost cutting exercise by IE and NIR not recommended by EMD

In the 21st century modern power electronics you could probably do a AC-DC-AC inverter to solve the problem and eliminate the rpm requirements

...meanwhile, it seems to be adding up to fixing what isn't broken, since you needed to add more moving parts to make it work.

dowlingm · 12-09-2012 05:13AM

CIE -let's have enough of the blanket statements about HEP. VIA just yanked it out of their 50-odd F40PHs in favour of on-loco generators (no room for that on a 201 because there's a cab in the way whereas the F40 is single cab. Most new loco orders I've seen have included a separate generator with only METRA ordering MP36s without one and using HEP instead. It's obviously still up for debate but maybe IE just wanted the 800hp of traction power they have to do without with HEP engaged.

Cookie_Monster · 12-09-2012 10:15AM

CIE wrote: »

So because of an allegedly modern three-phase AC power bus system, HEP suddenly doesn't work? Not buying that one, sorry. I don't see how it couldn't be adapted.

simples, jam in a motor with an extra 1,000hp; 4,200hp on Irish rails :eek:

hawkwind23 · 12-09-2012 01:37PM

hello ,
i enjoy reading up on these threads as a regular train user.
would like to add that the afternoon service from Dublin to Belfast suffered a failure outside Dundalk on the 11/09.
it was announced as mechanical but the delay was brief at only 10-15 minutes.

SeanW · 13-09-2012 04:44PM

CIE wrote: »

...meanwhile, it seems to be adding up to fixing what isn't broken, since you needed to add more moving parts to make it work.

But the old system was broken - the locomotives were breaking down all the time because of all the stress they were under. The reused Mk3 generator vans take that strain off the locomotives, ergo at this time it's a good idea.

Of course HEP as planned back in the mid '90s should never have been implemented, and questions must be asked about that, but it's nearly 20 years later and to their credit IE/NIR are now doing something to put it right.

comradestalin · 13-09-2012 08:23PM

...meanwhile, it seems to be adding up to fixing what isn't broken,

HEP isn't broken ?

Jamie2k9 · 14-09-2012 04:07PM

Have NI/IE done any forward planning for Belfast services. There are 4 enterprise sets of which 3 are used. Have they kept another Gen Van for the future if the fourth set was to be used to increase services.

goingnowhere · 14-09-2012 04:22PM

There are 4 compatible generator vans now

Plus 10 more lying around...

Enterprise Generator Van Enters Service

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