Enterprise Generator Van Enters Service

Chrisplayfair

After almost 3 years of this project, the first van has entered service working the 0650 Central / Dublin. Making a comeback is the IWT Favourite Loco 209! The loco's first visit to Belfast since October 2010....It is planned that the other 2 diagrams will have Gen Vans introduced in the coming weeks.

Video of 209 on the 0935 Dublin / Central with the Gen Van @ Dunmurry :

http://chrisplayfair.smugmug.com/Travel/2012-Photos/September-2012/25163506_KKj2Ct#!i=2078244198&k=d7nZmrK

Captain Chaos

Cheers for that update. 208 is back after it's double failure on the Enterprise too.

Chrisplayfair

She is indeed...Had her last night on the 1900 to Dublin...

comradestalin

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

After almost 3 years of this project, the first van has entered service working the 0650 Central / Dublin. Making a comeback is the IWT Favourite Loco 209! The loco's first visit to Belfast since October 2010....It is planned that the other 2 diagrams will have Gen Vans introduced in the coming weeks.

Video of 209 on the 0935 Dublin / Central with the Gen Van @ Dunmurry :

http://chrisplayfair.smugmug.com/Travel/2012-Photos/September-2012/25163506_KKj2Ct#!i=2078244198&k=d7nZmrK

Christopher,

Yes I was on the 0650 this morning. When I showed up at Central and could not hear the HEP I wondered if there was something wrong, then looked at the train and saw the gen van in place. I signed up here in order to mention it, but you'd gotten in ahead of me

Let's hope this sorts out the reliability problems.

BTW great photo site.

Chrisplayfair

Many thanks for that!

Millem

Thanks for posting the video Chris. Great to see MK3s back in service on Irish metals !!

dowlingm

and it only took three years from when the first EGV was designated... :rolleyes:

good news all the same.

gordy712

Added a few photos from today of MK3 Gen Van 89604 hauled by 209 on the 09:35 Enterprise from Dublin to Belfast at Lisburn & the 18:10 Enterprise from Belfast to Dublin at Portadown to the following site

http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/25301801_BkHfb2#!i=2079165278&k=tK48hFf

highlydebased

Surely this will improve reliability of services with the gen van immeasurably

Hopefully it will be successful and the rest will be pressed into service

SeanW

Nice pics Chris and Gordy

comradestalin

I find it interesting how similar the 201s sound to 071s whenever the HEP is off.

CIE

highlydebased wrote: »

Surely this will improve reliability of services with the gen van immeasurably

Hopefully it will be successful and the rest will be pressed into service

Not likely.

And if it "does", then consider the fact that a technology that works everywhere else in the world has its equivalent doubling of moving parts imposed on you unnecessarily.

comradestalin

I think it's likely alright, the Cork services (which there are more of) don't see anything like the kind of locomotive failure rates the Enterprise sees.

Captain Chaos

CIE wrote: »

Not likely.

And if it "does", then consider the fact that a technology that works everywhere else in the world has its equivalent doubling of moving parts imposed on you unnecessarily.

I'd say it is likely. Plus it will now allow the 201s to stay in service longer as there will now be less strain on them, well the ones that have not been wrecked from HEP like 209 and now 227 seems to be.

In fairness the last Enterprise failure before 233 failed was a fuel pump failure on 208 twice. The brake software problems between the 201s and DD stock seems to have been solved years ago so now if the 201s are looked after the failure rates should now drop a good bit.

What will be interesting will be the fuel consumption. A 201 on HEP can not complete two return trips on a full tank of fuel. While the 201s will now get more milage on a full tank how much do the Mk3 gennys use? Will it cost more in fuel in the long run. I'm sure IE and Translink have looked into that though,

comradestalin

I'd say the 201s have plenty of life in them yet. IE appear to have committed themselves to locomotive haulage on the Belfast and Cork mainlines. That much is obvious.

WRT fuel usage, I doubt it is a problem, bear in mind that until a few years ago most services on the island were loco hauled with gen vans, this is merely a return to previous form. The actual electrical power load of a train is not especially great, a fraction of the power required for traction.

I think the compelling case for the Enterprise was not the fuel saving but the lower maintenance overhead ie having to maintain and refuel only one vehicle rather than two. Back in the day I reckon they thought they'd have a clockface timetable going and that it would help reduce the turnaround time.

I don't think the 201s had problems supplying the HEP load; I think it was the fact that the HEP would keep the engine spinning at high revs for long periods with little load.

dublinman1990

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

After almost 3 years of this project, the first van has entered service working the 0650 Central / Dublin. Making a comeback is the IWT Favourite Loco 209! The loco's first visit to Belfast since October 2010....It is planned that the other 2 diagrams will have Gen Vans introduced in the coming weeks.

Video of 209 on the 0935 Dublin / Central with the Gen Van @ Dunmurry :

http://chrisplayfair.smugmug.com/Travel/2012-Photos/September-2012/25163506_KKj2Ct#!i=2078244198&k=d7nZmrK

Good god, the train in that video is flying down the track at a wonderful speed.

How much speed would be considered the norm when comparing the old HEP to the Gen Vans?

Chrisplayfair

Still achieve line speed (90MPH) no problem. I was talking to someone this evening about the speed actually...They noticed a difference from Fairview to Killester. Usually hitting 50/55 just before Killester...Without HEP your looking at around 60..62...Which isn't much but isn't bad either really

CIE

comradestalin wrote: »

I think it's likely alright, the Cork services (which there are more of) don't see anything like the kind of locomotive failure rates the Enterprise sees

That's got nothing to do with locomotive-generated HEP. IE is deliberately doing it wrong, AFAICS (how come it works everywhere else but not Ireland?) So now you have a car with no revenue seats being hauled around because IE somehow doesn't know how to do something that the rest of the world does.

comradestalin

Chris,

I thought yesterday that the acceleration on the train was improved, which is theoretically possible I guess given that there is more power available for traction. But that could have been a placebo effect. The train arrived in Dublin a minute or two ahead of schedule but, as usual, crawled at what felt like about 40mph most of the way from Malahide.

CIE :

That's got nothing to do with locomotive-generated HEP.

Then what is it to do with ?

IE is deliberately doing it wrong, AFAICS (how come it works everywhere else but not Ireland?)

I don't have a good answer for why it works in other places but not Ireland, but I'd be prepared to accept the theory that the Enterprise has a relatively short journey with relatively frequent stops and this is harder on the engine.

And I'm sorry, but the idea that Translink and IE are both deliberately (you used the word - "deliberately") conspiring to sabotage HEP is just a little bit ridiculous. Why would they deliberately screw up their train service, waste fuel and provoke embarassing questions in both the Assembly and the Dáil ?

So now you have a car with no revenue seats being hauled around

As is standard for every locomotive hauled service in the history of Irish railways including the Cork service ..

because IE somehow doesn't know how to do something that the rest of the world does.

I doubt it is a case of IE not knowing how to solve the problem. I suspect that the 201 HEP design is simply deficient and IE/NIR were sadly careless when they were specifying it over 20 years ago.

goingnowhere

CIE wrote: »

That's got nothing to do with locomotive-generated HEP. IE is deliberately doing it wrong, AFAICS (how come it works everywhere else but not Ireland?) So now you have a car with no revenue seats being hauled around because IE somehow doesn't know how to do something that the rest of the world does.

Because we use a dual 380V AC tri phase train power bus (i.e modern), while the bulk of the world uses a single bus and single phase 1000V DC or AC system (early 20th century). UK HST uses a similar system 415V AC system.

For a whole pile of reasons a tri phase system is much cheaper to fit to each coach as you don't need to lug around a motor alternator or static inverter/converter under each coach. That's a single point of failure, while the Irish system you can lose one power bus and still have full lighting and limited heating as well as all the auxiliary systems like the doors working

Downside is to generate 380V AC you need constant RPM on the generator to deliver a 50hz AC signal, once you get as little as 2hz off its no good. That fine is you have a dedicated generator set as the power demand is fairly constant, running it off a traction engine isn't exactly ideally especially given the binary drive style on Dublin Belfast of notch 8 then coast/stop.

CIE

goingnowhere wrote: »

Because we use a dual 380V AC tri phase train power bus (i.e modern), while the bulk of the world uses a single bus and single phase 1000V DC or AC system (early 20th century). UK HST uses a similar system 415V AC system.

For a whole pile of reasons a tri phase system is much cheaper to fit to each coach as you don't need to lug around a motor alternator or static inverter/converter under each coach. That's a single point of failure, while the Irish system you can lose one power bus and still have full lighting and limited heating as well as all the auxiliary systems like the doors working.

Downside is to generate 380V AC you need constant RPM on the generator to deliver a 50hz AC signal, once you get as little as 2hz off its no good. That fine is you have a dedicated generator set as the power demand is fairly constant, running it off a traction engine isn't exactly ideally especially given the binary drive style on Dublin Belfast of notch 8 then coast/stop.

So because of an allegedly modern three-phase AC power bus system, HEP suddenly doesn't work? Not buying that one, sorry. I don't see how it couldn't be adapted.

comradestalin

Not buying that one, sorry. I don't see how it couldn't be adapted.

What are you suggesting are the reasons why it was not ?

goingnowhere

CIE wrote: »

So because of an allegedly modern three-phase AC power bus system, HEP suddenly doesn't work? Not buying that one, sorry. I don't see how it couldn't be adapted.

HEP is to provide 380v AC Tri Phase

The UK and European standard is a 1000 V AC/DC ETH system

Both are radically different, Irish Rail's tri phase setup is by far the best power solution when the bulk of the load is air conditioning based (about 25kw per coach), it means less to go wrong and less equipment under each coach.

Only downside is you need a 380V AC generator, easy thats what the Mk2 and Mk3 generator vans are for. The 201 HEP solution was a cost cutting exercise by IE and NIR not recommended by EMD

In the 21st century modern power electronics you could probably do a AC-DC-AC inverter to solve the problem and eliminate the rpm requirements

CIE

goingnowhere wrote: »

HEP is to provide 380v AC Tri Phase

The UK and European standard is a 1000 V AC/DC ETH system

Both are radically different, Irish Rail's tri phase setup is by far the best power solution when the bulk of the load is air conditioning based (about 25kw per coach), it means less to go wrong and less equipment under each coach.

Only downside is you need a 380V AC generator, easy thats what the Mk2 and Mk3 generator vans are for. The 201 HEP solution was a cost cutting exercise by IE and NIR not recommended by EMD

In the 21st century modern power electronics you could probably do a AC-DC-AC inverter to solve the problem and eliminate the rpm requirements

...meanwhile, it seems to be adding up to fixing what isn't broken, since you needed to add more moving parts to make it work.

dowlingm

CIE -let's have enough of the blanket statements about HEP. VIA just yanked it out of their 50-odd F40PHs in favour of on-loco generators (no room for that on a 201 because there's a cab in the way whereas the F40 is single cab. Most new loco orders I've seen have included a separate generator with only METRA ordering MP36s without one and using HEP instead. It's obviously still up for debate but maybe IE just wanted the 800hp of traction power they have to do without with HEP engaged.

Cookie_Monster

CIE wrote: »

So because of an allegedly modern three-phase AC power bus system, HEP suddenly doesn't work? Not buying that one, sorry. I don't see how it couldn't be adapted.

simples, jam in a motor with an extra 1,000hp; 4,200hp on Irish rails :eek:

hawkwind23

hello ,
i enjoy reading up on these threads as a regular train user.
would like to add that the afternoon service from Dublin to Belfast suffered a failure outside Dundalk on the 11/09.
it was announced as mechanical but the delay was brief at only 10-15 minutes.

SeanW

CIE wrote: »

...meanwhile, it seems to be adding up to fixing what isn't broken, since you needed to add more moving parts to make it work.

But the old system was broken - the locomotives were breaking down all the time because of all the stress they were under. The reused Mk3 generator vans take that strain off the locomotives, ergo at this time it's a good idea.

Of course HEP as planned back in the mid '90s should never have been implemented, and questions must be asked about that, but it's nearly 20 years later and to their credit IE/NIR are now doing something to put it right.

comradestalin

...meanwhile, it seems to be adding up to fixing what isn't broken,

HEP isn't broken ?

Jamie2k9

Have NI/IE done any forward planning for Belfast services. There are 4 enterprise sets of which 3 are used. Have they kept another Gen Van for the future if the fourth set was to be used to increase services.

goingnowhere

There are 4 compatible generator vans now

Plus 10 more lying around...

Jamie2k9

There are 4 compatible generator vans now

Thats good I thought only 3 were done.

Plus 10 more lying around...

They will be crushed soon.....

Losty Dublin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Have NI/IE done any forward planning for Belfast services. There are 4 enterprise sets of which 3 are used. Have they kept another Gen Van for the future if the fourth set was to be used to increase services.

There is only 3 sets for traffic. The so called 4th set is just the spare carriages.

Chrisplayfair

From what i've been told it seems that if the van fails on the Enterprise the HEP on the locomotive cannot provide power for the train as the electric wiring is different and won't pass through the van....

goingnowhere

The gen van as two generators, so even if you lose one the fact the train power system a dual bus system means most systems stay working

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Have NI/IE done any forward planning for Belfast services. There are 4 enterprise sets of which 3 are used. Have they kept another Gen Van for the future if the fourth set was to be used to increase services.

The remaining set is effectively a maintenance spare. Were it to be in full time use there would be scope for carrying out any maintenance on the rest of the rolling stock.

Any additional services would have to be provided by alternative rolling stock, such as 22K sets.

Jamie2k9

EGV 89613 now in service, spotted it yesterday.

Jamie2k9

Anyone know whats the problem with the entreprise over the last week or so. A set failing everday or being delayed up to an hour. Are the EGV causing problems or is it the set that hasn't one yet.

bikeman1

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Anyone know whats the problem with the entreprise over the last week or so. A set failing everday or being delayed up to an hour. Are the EGV causing problems or is it the set that hasn't one yet.

206 + 7 DDs and no van noted on the 20:50 Belfast last night and this worked into Dublin on the 06:50 this morning. So if there is a problem it seems to be with the van sets.

Losty Dublin

bikeman1 wrote: »

206 + 7 DDs and no van noted on the 20:50 Belfast last night and this worked into Dublin on the 06:50 this morning. So if there is a problem it seems to be with the van sets.

It is more likely to be locomotive relatedl; there has been a few sit downs on the Dublin-Cork services inside the last few weeks.

Jamie2k9

It is more likely to be locomotive relatedl; there has been a few sit downs on the Dublin-Cork services inside the last few weeks.

The ICR havn't being great recently either a lot of faults/failures to. IR have loads of problems at once then nothing for weeks. I did see around 5 201's at the shed in Heuston late last week so must be related. Good to hear the EGV are not causing any problems.

Jamie2k9

All 3 EGV are now in service since Sunday according to IRN.

Captain Chaos

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

All 3 EGV are now in service since Sunday according to IRN.

That's good, there were two failures last week. 227 failed at Connolly but hauled the set to Belfast empty which means the fault was with the DD stock and not the loco. 208 failed at Belfast so 112 dragged it to Connolly where an 071 dragged it over to Inchicore for attention.

CIE

Captain Chaos wrote: »

That's good, there were two failures last week. 227 failed at Connolly but hauled the set to Belfast empty which means the fault was with the DD stock and not the loco. 208 failed at Belfast so 112 dragged it to Connolly where an 071 dragged it over to Inchicore for attention.

Still remains funny how HEP works everywhere else on the globe except Ireland. Do the leprechauns sabotage the HEP or something? So thanks to this intransigence (from whatever level in IE bureaucracy) against HEP, the Enterprise and Dublin-Cork trains have to haul around a non-revenue carriage.

CIE

CIE wrote: »

Still remains funny how HEP works everywhere else on the globe except Ireland. Do the leprechauns sabotage the HEP or something? So thanks to this intransigence (from whatever level in IE bureaucracy) against HEP, the Enterprise and Dublin-Cork trains have to haul around a non-revenue carriage.

This was already explained to you. AC, especially three phase, cannot be reliably generated with prime mover HEP due to the variable speed. Therefore the 201s have to run at full bore to do it.

Jamie2k9

That's good, there were two failures last week. 227 failed at Connolly but hauled the set to Belfast empty which means the fault was with the DD stock and not the loco. 208 failed at Belfast so 112 dragged it to Connolly where an 071 dragged it over to Inchicore for attention.

Its good but not stopping constant failures. A set failed at lunchtime on Monday and all remaining services scheduled for the set were replaced by NIR sets.

SeanW

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

All 3 EGV are now in service since Sunday according to IRN.

I hope they're going to have one spare: as these will fail/need maintenance from time to time.

Jamie2k9

SeanW wrote: »

I hope they're going to have one spare: as these will fail/need maintenance from time to time.

I asked if there was an extra one but they have 3 and thats it.

Jamie2k9

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I asked if there was an extra one but they have 3 and thats it.

They do have four but maybe only three are serviceable. 89604, 89605, 89608 and 89613.

Jamie2k9

They do have four but maybe only three are serviceable. 89604, 89605, 89608 and 89613.

They only need 3 sericeable at a time so at least they do have a spare.

Losty Dublin

SeanW wrote: »

I hope they're going to have one spare: as these will fail/need maintenance from time to time.

Mark 3 Carriages don't need as much servicing as newer units due to their lacking a lot of mechanics and fancy stuff. I'd say the easier option would be to drop a Genny and use HEP for the odd trip if needs be.