Would you be better off if there were no taxes, no public services?

Blowfish · 11-09-2012 03:00PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

So we pay a private company to run the Gardai.

Sounds like taxes :pac:

The difference being, the Gardai have a monopoly on private security/law enforcement, where as without government, there'd be numerous companies competing for the role and you could choose between them, or even choose not to pay for private security/law enforcement at all.

RayM · 11-09-2012 04:11PM

Blowfish wrote: »

The difference being, the Gardai have a monopoly on private security/law enforcement, where as without government, there'd be numerous companies competing for the role and you could choose between them, or even choose not to pay for private security/law enforcement at all.

Without government, who would create the laws that these private security companies would (on behalf of those who can afford it) enforce?

Gbear · 11-09-2012 04:36PM

There's certainly an argument to be made for the government doing less but we need to have a neutral justice system, we need a safety net as well as various neutral regulators (healthcare, planning permission, financial). That all needs tax to pay for it and indeed, to pay for the collection of said taxes.

I can't see how healthcare run by private companies wouldn't be more cost effective.
People who can afford health insurance use that and people who can't would be covered by social security.
Everyone pays less tax, rich people who are sick pay for it and whatever tax we do have covers those who can't afford it.

It isn't about people who don't work don't deserve healthcare, or whatever other ****e - it's about the fact that competition generally leads to innovation and efficiency and that both of those are alien to public services which don't punish failure.

I think the state basically has a role where neutrality is more important than cost-effectiveness (gardaí), for a safety net or where nobody is going to be able to afford the big capital expenditure for things like motorways.

Blowfish · 11-09-2012 04:42PM

RayM wrote: »

Without government, who would create the laws that these private security companies would (on behalf of those who can afford it) enforce?

There wouldn't be 'laws' as such, but there are various ideas on private dispute resolution services, most likely this is theorised to be based on reputation. Some of it is covered here.

Tipp Man · 11-09-2012 04:45PM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

"Hi I'd like to get some electricity to my house please."

- "Where do you live Sir?"

"Wicklow"

- "Certainly, that'll be a 5,000 euro connection fee please."

Where are you living that you don't think this is the case already?

Sam Kade · 11-09-2012 04:54PM

Celticfire wrote: »

Plenty of people paying little or no tax already.

Everyone pays tax

K-9 · 11-09-2012 04:54PM

What would we do with all the infrastructure we currently have? Something like a refund for taxes paid over the years as private companies takeover schools, hospitals, roads, garda barracks etc.

Whoever paid in most would get more I assume, a higher dividend on their higher payments.

Chuck Stone · 11-09-2012 04:56PM

See: Anarcho-capitalism.

It would rely on the rich to be virtuous people and freedom for the shark is tyranny for the sardine.

Adam Smith (king of the corporate 'capitalist' fanboy) said:

All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind

I don't see any reason why in the event of pure free markets a class of vile men wouldn't become the masters of mankind.

CruelCoin · 11-09-2012 04:59PM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

"Hi I'd like to get some electricity to my house please."

- "Where do you live Sir?"

"Wicklow"

- "Certainly, that'll be a 5,000 euro connection fee please."

This fee would be competed away. Wouldn't happen.

A prime example is Somalias mobile phone network.
Zero regulation, yet Somalia is possesing of the one of the worlds best mobile networks in terms of call quality, reception coverage and cost of calls.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4020259.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_in_Somalia

Chuck Stone · 11-09-2012 04:59PM

K-9 wrote: »

What would we do with all the infrastructure we currently have? Something like a refund for taxes paid over the years as private companies takeover schools, hospitals, roads, garda barracks etc.

There would be no companies. Companies are government creations. You raise an interesting point though. There would have to be a blank slate or the experiment would be tainted by public endeavour.

golden lane · 11-09-2012 05:00PM

everybody would pay into a private organisation to provide all the services...

then that would become the government......great idea...

AnonoBoy · 11-09-2012 06:24PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

Where are you living that you don't think this is the case already?

I live in my house. Never paid a connection fee in my house.

Feathers · 11-09-2012 06:36PM

Blowfish wrote: »

Skylinehead wrote: »

No police, be grand.

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

no sewers, be grand (but stinky, and pestilent)

What makes people think either of the above would be true? Both are pretty good business opportunities, it wouldn't take long before multiple companies would be competing to provide these services.

So like vigilante bounty hunters? Some guy stole my phone, here's a description, I'll give you €50 to get it back, no questions asked.

Pottler · 11-09-2012 10:24PM

professore wrote: »

Wages would be cut overnight for jobs with a surplus of applicants as employers would know people had no viable alternative to working. Competition for jobs would be fierce and people would work ridiculous hours to impress their bosses.

Unemployment would fall to 5% or less as people would be forced to work for the meager wages above ... but employers could afford to hire more people, and our economy would be super competitive.

Since there would be no-one to enforce the law, crime would skyrocket, and everyone would have a gun.

Educational standards would vary wildly since there would be no centralised body to enforce them.

Most people in the public sector would have no work.

Most admin people in the public sector would have no work.

If you got a long term illness that prevented you working you might as well kill yourself as you would end up dead anyway.

On the "plus" side, rents and house prices would be much lower.

Actually most of the above applies to the USA !!!

Pretty rough overall ...

Ok, but there must be a downside. You forgot the downside.

eth0 · 11-09-2012 10:37PM

It'd be mighty. No property tax, live completely off the grid. Who needs governments and codology that goes along with em. Just start a culture of having people donate a 5er a month to keep the army going so the country stays our own and doesn't get invaded by another country that has a government and we'd be grand

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater · 11-09-2012 10:41PM

Thinly veiled "Lets have a Public Service bashing thread" thread.

oppenheimer1 · 11-09-2012 11:22PM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

"Hi I'd like to get some electricity to my house please."

- "Where do you live Sir?"

"Wicklow"

- "Certainly, that'll be a 5,000 euro connection fee please."

And you know if someone wants to live in the back arse of nowhere and wants services brought to them they should carry the full cost and not have it subsidised by someone else. We might finally be able to build communities that have the critical mass to support essential infrastructure.

However an anarchist society as the OP wouldn't work. There would be no central authority to direct essential arms of the state such as police and thus society would descend into chaos. There would be no welfare and no one to do things that aren't profitable but in the greater good.

BOHtox · 11-09-2012 11:37PM

Corporations are people, my friend!

BOHtox · 11-09-2012 11:39PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

And you know if someone wants to live in the back arse of nowhere and wants services brought to them they should carry the full cost and not have it subsidised by someone else. We might finally be able to build communities that have the critical mass to support essential infrastructure.

However an anarchist society as the OP wouldn't work. There would be no central authority to direct essential arms of the state such as police and thus society would descend into chaos. There would be no welfare and no one to do things that aren't profitable but in the greater good.

Charities!

eth0 · 11-09-2012 11:48PM

BOHtox wrote: »

Charities!

Also letting your friends into your house so they can go for a shag, You'd be very badly stuck before you couldn't afford to do that

Cienciano · 11-09-2012 11:55PM

bbam wrote: »

It's not that long ago since my sister paid £5000 to have a single phase dimestic supply connected to their house, late 90's maybe. And that's on a main road within 4 miles of the second town in the county.

£5000 for a 4 mile underground or overhead cable sounds very reasonable

OnTheCounter · 11-09-2012 11:56PM

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Roads would all be tolls. All public transport would be... er.. private I guess.
No medical benefits/child support/pensions.
But I guess you could always have insurance and take out your own pensions.
I would have more more money I feel but am much happier having these services in place even if they're not exactly run efficiently. Private schools would sure make having kids expensive. But just think of all the tax money you have paid over the years...

who would give me my dole money?

oppenheimer1 · 12-09-2012 12:58AM

BOHtox wrote: »

Charities!

Oh how naive!

BOHtox · 12-09-2012 01:06AM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Oh how naive!

I mean it's not as if they don't do it now.

wow sierra · 12-09-2012 01:09AM

Would ye miss the pipes that take what you put in your toilet away from your house and deposit it elsewhere???

Just thought I would pick that one as it is in keeping with what I think of the thread.

On the plus side it does remind me of one of my fav bits of comedy - I think someone else already mentioned it - The Life of Brian - What did the Romans ever do for us.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

K-9 · 12-09-2012 01:19AM

BOHtox wrote: »

Corporations are people, my friend!

Only because a Government apparatus said so, so corporations would cease to exist if we bring it to a full conclusion.

Piste · 12-09-2012 01:19AM

So you only get protection from criminals if you can pay? You only get medical treatment if you get hit by a car if you can pay? You're born to a poor family through no fault of your own and can't afford to educate you cos they can't pay?

Nigs to that.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 12-09-2012 01:26AM

Governments have no place in a modern society. Self-regulation is a wonderful thing. What can possibly go wrong if you allow multi-nationals to govern themselves? Nothing, that's what!

eth0 · 12-09-2012 01:27AM

Khalid Cuddly Hairline wrote: »

Governments have no place in a modern society. Self-regulation is a wonderful thing. What can possibly go wrong if you allow multi-nationals to govern themselves? Nothing, that's what!

*visit drinkaware.ie

BOHtox · 12-09-2012 01:44AM

wow sierra wrote: »

Would ye miss the pipes that take what you put in your toilet away from your house and deposit it elsewhere???

Just thought I would pick that one as it is in keeping with what I think of the thread.

On the plus side it does remind me of one of my fav bits of comedy - I think someone else already mentioned it - The Life of Brian - What did the Romans ever do for us.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

The government don't sell food, does that mean nowhere does?
the government doesn't build houses, have we a shortage?
The government didn't create boards.ie, but we have it now.

If the government didn't do sewerage, a private company would!

Would you be better off if there were no taxes, no public services?

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