The future of Irish

twinQuins · 17-06-2012 04:05PM

Aimsigh wrote: »

No, because Irish will be important to them, using it will be natural, and they wont be too happy with Irish being treated as a second class language.

But they'll use English far more in their day to day lives so it'll be more important.
I get what you're saying but English, right now, is the more important language and that's not likely to change any time soon. If people can avail of services from the government and private companies in a language they're fluent in I don't see why they'd be upset it's not available in another.

What you're suggesting sounds more a product of nationalism than of simply teaching people another language.
You can't force nationalist feelings on people and short of including some form of nationalist sentiment in the teaching of the language I, again, don't see how people would be bothered enough about the language.

1ZRed · 17-06-2012 04:11PM

Níl a fhios agam ceard sa fuck atá tú ag caint faoi anseo!

Davidius · 17-06-2012 04:19PM

I'd like if most of the country became bilingual in Irish and English but that's probably not going to happen. From a purely functional perspective I suppose there is little reason for it, though in that mode of thinking I'd probably prefer one global language spoken by everybody (obviously impractical and irrelevant).

I do not speak Irish though I've been taking small steps to learn a bit, and as poor as I am at it I'm a little surprised at how much I do understand. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people have better Irish than they realise but don't speak out of a lack of confidence, resentment or more likely not giving a shít.

The social attitude towards Irish seems like a bit of a barrier though. Even people who can understand what you're saying will consider it pretentious if you tried to speak or use a bit of rudimentary Irish around them. Some people have grown to resent it enough such that they don't see the fun in speaking a bit of Irish. That's not to say that there isn't a bit of pretentiousness shown by some Irish speakers who hold a 'say it right or don't say it all' attitude or try to shame people for not speaking it. That's probably going to do more to kill it than revive it. Aside from that some people are just a bit mad and equate Irish or Irishness with backwardness or terrorism.

dpqt · 17-06-2012 04:39PM

Seanchai wrote: »

Irishness is nothing but an Irish identity, a mere identity, without Irish culture. A sign of the delusion of those that share that identity, but reject Irish culture, these days is that Irish efforts in English sports like rugby and soccer are now signs of "Irish culture". :rolleyes:

This sounds like something Dev would have said. Unless you speak As Gaelge, go to mass on Sunday, play hurling at the crossroads and dance to diddley eye jigs at the local parish hall, then you are not really a true Irishman and a west brit traitor.

dpqt · 17-06-2012 04:51PM

Aimsigh wrote: »

So, given your choice, what would you like to see as the future of the Irish Language?

This is all about what you would like to see not what you think will happen, also there is no time limit it, you can answer for however far into the future you want.

Personally I would like to see a majority Irish speaking Ireland, I think it could happen, but a lot would have to change from the education system to how the language is promoted, given the right conditions I'd say it could be done in 150 years or so, in time for our great grand kids to enjoy.

English has become the global language of business, politics and entertainent, the United States and American culture are likely to continue growing in influence within Ireland and elsewhere. I cannot see how smaller languages are going to fare against the massive US global influence, which seems to be growing more intense by the year. I also like been able to visit America and Australia and having the same language, it can be a put off going to the continent and having to learn a new language every time you go on holidays to European countries. That and most of my favourite music and television programmes come from the US.

Seanchai · 17-06-2012 05:02PM

dpqt wrote: »

This sounds like something Dev would have said. Unless you speak As Gaelge, go to mass on Sunday, play hurling at the crossroads and dance to diddley eye jigs at the local parish hall, then you are not really a true Irishman and a west brit traitor.

Perhaps it was; perhaps it wasn't - although your addition of mass to the equation indicates more about your desire to box somebody into your prejudices than anything else.

At any rate, what I said is an accurate assessment of the new "Irish culture" that you so evidently have embraced, which is in fact merely a regional variant of English culture. These sort of people are verbally Irish, but culturally British (i.e. English). Many Irish people, particularly males in poorer urban areas, in fact deride Irish culture and think they're cool when they are engaging in British cultural norms like watching British soccer on British tv. Yes, they would be the same sort whose chip on their shoulder about Irish culture is nicely encapsulated by their reference to traditional Irish music as "diddley eye". :rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-06-2012 05:21PM

Seanchai wrote: »

Perhaps it was; perhaps it wasn't - although your addition of mass to the equation indicates more about your desire to box somebody into your prejudices than anything else.

At any rate, what I said is an accurate assessment of the new "Irish culture" that you so evidently have embraced, which is in fact merely a regional variant of English culture. These sort of people are verbally Irish, but culturally British (i.e. English). Many Irish people, particularly males in poorer urban areas, in fact deride Irish culture and think they're cool when they are engaging in British cultural norms like watching British soccer on British tv. Yes, they would be the same sort whose chip on their shoulder about Irish culture is nicely encapsulated by their reference to traditional Irish music as "diddley eye". :rolleyes:

In the modern era, there is a much less likliehood that someone will automatcially have a fondness for the first culture, langauge or piece of music that they are exposed to.

The idea that if you don't have an affinity to Irish culture you're automatically gravitating towards British culture is bull****. For one thing, as you point out, here's not that much difference between them in any case, as a reuslt of media influence and common ancestry. Is Father Ted British or Irish culture?

What are the other cultural aspects that you would see people like to take up? You mentioned soccer, but the simple truth is, the quality of the prodcut served up in Britain is simply two leagues better than it is here. I've been to a few LOI matches (go with a friend whenever I'm back) and to be honest with you, I find them overpriced and usually a bit lacking in skill. Bundesliga matches are only a couple of euro more expensive.

Wibbs · 17-06-2012 05:46PM

Seanchai wrote: »

Perhaps it was; perhaps it wasn't - although your addition of mass to the equation indicates more about your desire to box somebody into your prejudices than anything else.

Mass goer eh?

Only kidding.

I would take some issue with the notion of Irish culture being English. It's just as much American if not more so. Christ some of the accents of kids, esp young women, you hear who sport a mid Atlantic(and horrific) twang is evidence of that. Even Philip on the British queens visit after talking to one such lassie inquired "are you a native?" As he would... Indeed you'll often hear our Albion neighbours decrying the fact that their kids are getting "too American". Cultures have never been pickled in aspic isolates. Ireland wasn't and isn't. In todays global media world this is even more the case. Influences are everywhere and come and go. It's the nature of the beast. To fight that by heavyhanded cultural means is like fighting sand and destined to failure. In that sense the comparison to DeValera isn't so far off(not you S, the idea of culture in general).

Irish music has been mentioned and it's a good example to my mind. While personally it tended to fall leaden to my ears, it's very popular at home and abroad, both in listeners and performers, amateur and pro. This very night will find many a pub throughout Ireland with people playing Irish music with rapt audiences eager for more. A particularly Irish thing too. Many of those audience members may well sport Man U tee shirts and such. And they'll be playing it on Spanish design Guitars, Industrial revolution English tin whistles, fiddles with an eastern European origin and if they have uilleann pipes they're just as likely made in China and they themselves are only around 2 centuries old. Many of the "rebel songs" will have musical origins and styles fertilised back and forth with English and Scots folk music. If you want authentic then insist on Sean nos singing or singing with harp with the odd bodhran flourish thrown in.

Enkidu wrote:

Also the fact that many from Gaelscoileanna find it difficult to read books by native speakers makes me suspicious as to their level of control over the language. Other may not mind this, but I'm not really sure what we'd be saving aside from lexical items (essentially English with Celtic words) if we continue down this track.

+1. I could well end up being a contrived language for the sake of a cultural ideal, Irish in name, but not reality. Much like modern Hebrew. IMHO that would be a great pity.

SusieBlue · 17-06-2012 05:51PM

books4sale wrote: »

What makes you so paranoid that anyone would be interested in what you have to say?

Remember when I was a young lad at 10-12 years old going to England with the ould pair, the two of them would start breaking out the 'cupla focail' thinking they were the bees knees.

Two spanners was more like it.

We obviously didn't conduct all of our conversations in Irish. If, however, we were in undesirable company and we wanted to get away, we could let each other know we'd had enough and wanted to go somewhere else without announcing it to whoever we were with. It was handy in those situations.

We ran into Welsh lads who did the same. Its more common than you'd think.

Precious flower · 17-06-2012 06:12PM

In an ideal world most be would say 'I'd like Irish to be spoken fluently by the majority of the country' (me being one of them). However in reality that best we can hope for is that the number of Irish speakers rises slightly, but with little reason to need Irish I fear the language will die a painful death.

purplepanda · 17-06-2012 06:15PM

The Welsh always seem proud of their language, even those that are not fluent. Even in London you often hear it spoken

Most Irish families fail to pass it on to their children, both home & abroad.

70% of London's Irish are from seven western counties, many of those parents are Irish speaking yet fail to pass the language on to their offspring, including the parents of many of my friends who still speak Irish at home amongst themselves. The children don't hardly know any Irish or even really understand it at all.

This situation doesn't repeat itself with London's Greek, Spanish, & Italian families, most of their children are fluent & go to local language classes out of school hours to ensure this.

None of my close family know much Irish so evidently the teaching of the language has been a total disaster, you just have to compare with Welsh to confirm this IMO.

A London born friend of mine of Dublin parents learned Irish at night classes (from a German teacher :eek: ) before he moved to Dublin 15 years ago. I have heard this lad talking to people from Connemara for 20 minutes or more without needing to use English at all.

He also mentioned that the attitude of some middle class Gaelgoir (spelling) types towards anyone attempting to speak Irish is patronising & demeaning. :mad:

Maybe the Germans could revive the language.

Iwasfrozen · 17-06-2012 06:32PM

Precious flower wrote: »

In an ideal world most be would say 'I'd like Irish to be spoken fluently by the majority of the country' (me being one of them). However in reality that best we can hope for is that the number of Irish speakers rises slightly, but with little reason to need Irish I fear the language will die a painful death.

It's only dying a slow death because there's people who want to keep it alive. Anyway I'd guess that irish will die out before 100 years but it'll stay on as an academic language.

number10a · 17-06-2012 08:35PM

Enkidu wrote: »

I honestly have to say that you must have had a totally different experience from me. Perhaps you were in Uíbh Ráthach (the west of the Iveragh Peninsula), which hasn't been Irish speaking really since the 1950s, but I don't know how anybody could go out to Baile an Fheirtéaraigh, Dún Chaoin, e.t.c. in the Dingle peninsula and say that Dublin far outstrips it in the level of Irish spoken.

Uíbh Ráthach is exactly where we were sent. None of us knew it was a Gaeltacht before we were sent there. I have yet to meet a person who knew it is a Gaeltacht. It's places like this that take from any sense of credibility that the language could be building for itself. Designating areas as places where Irish is spoken in Ireland is kind of strange. It might not be spoken by many people, but it is spoken all over the country, not just a few isolated pockets in the West. I know of shops in Cork and Dublin where I can go in and do my business in Irish if I want to. There was not a single place in this "Gaeltacht" where this could be done.

Asking for a "buidéal Lucozade" or a "pionta Guinness" in the pub was met with a blank stare. I mean, if the bartender was Russian, I'd still expect them to get what that meant. Nope, not in Uíbh Ráthach.

When I first met the caretaker for our holiday home, I said "Conas atá tú?" to her and her reply was "Oh I have no Irish at all boy. You don't have to bother talking it to me. I won't say a bit to the college, don't worry." Nicest woman in the world, went out of her way for us. But that's what it's like down there. And she was born and bred there. The concept of Gaeltachts should simply be abandoned, or else the borders seriously revised.

Enkidu · 17-06-2012 09:36PM

number10a wrote: »

Uíbh Ráthach is exactly where we were sent.

Well that makes sense, it's a joke Gaeltacht, it wasn't really one in the 1950s. I have all the novels ever written in the area (the dialect is one of my favourites) and in some of the autobiographies (from the 20s) it mentions that there isn't many left who speak Irish. I only know one Uíbh Ráthach speaker.

Precious flower · 18-06-2012 12:36AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's only dying a slow death because there's people who want to keep it alive. Anyway I'd guess that irish will die out before 100 years but it'll stay on as an academic language.

Yes, but I don't think we should abandon it. The way it's taught needs desperately to be changed. The people who decide what should be taught on the course must be on another planet. Expecting students to write essays about the environment when they could just about attempt that in English, you need to start with the basics. And yes I know you could say that the basics are taught in primary school but most of those students go into secondary school barely knowing the basics!

It seems ludicrous that you would be discussing certain techniques and forms of poetry in Irish that you tackle in English which is your first language. Something is wrong at base level, that being primary school, which needs to be drastically looked at not to mention the secondary level course. I'm not sure how they aren't grasping the fact that that way of teaching Irish is failing. I don't understand the huge focus on grammar and being able to read in Irish. If you want to revive a language you need to be able to converse in it first before you can write in it! It makes people bitter towards it!

I get so angry that nothing has changed, by keeping up this way of teaching the language, they'll just destroy it and it'll be only after that that they will realise they made a mistake. Irish is such a beautiful language. When I’m visiting relatives in Connemara it makes me sad to think it will die out. I just think it's unfair to give up on a language when it's clear that a fair effort has not been taken to try to revive it.

18-06-2012 12:39AM

Irish will not die in 100 years, much like it did not die for the last 500 years like it has been claimed to be by 100's of serious people trying to self-fufill that "prophecy".

18-06-2012 12:43AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Many of the "rebel songs" will have musical origins and styles fertilised back and forth with English and Scots folk music.

Yeah, makes sense too when you look at our history (our as in England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales you know these 2 big islands off the coast of Europe which share pretty much all our history in one way or another)

Andy Irvine brought a lot of it over more recently as did Luke Kelly and others emigrating the other way.

validusername1 · 18-06-2012 01:36AM

Well I'd LOVE to be fluent in Irish. Can't even explain how much I want to be. I'd line to see the majority being fluent. But I just can't see it happening. I just finished school this year and the way Irish is taught in schools just is not working. Sure, we all have bits here & there, but after studying Irish in school for about 14 years, and pretty much none of us are fluent in it? Clearly there's something majorly wrong with the way it's being taught!

Teenagers in countries like France, Germany, Holland etc, they learn English in school. And somehow manage to become fluent in it. Whatever way English is taught in their schools clearly works, and it is the way that Irish should be taught in our schools if that's the case.

I can only see the Irish language dying out, sadly. Especially with this talk of making it an optional Leaving Cert subject (not that the Leaving Cert Irish course contributes much to fluency anyway, but still).

People say the only way to become fluent in a language is to totally immerse yourself in it. It's pretty hard to do that with Irish considering most places don't speak it! Aside from a few small Gaeltacht areas but sure that's not much good to people like me who have to move to cities for college & all that.

policarp · 18-06-2012 02:03AM

Majority Irish speaking Ireland. . .

Irish is like a lot of languages nowadays.
Like Australian Aboriginal language,
like north American Indian language,
like South American language,
like African language,
beaten out of the indigenous people
by Missioners, slave traders and conquerors. . .

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-06-2012 10:07PM

validusername1 wrote: »

Well I'd LOVE to be fluent in Irish. Can't even explain how much I want to be. I'd line to see the majority being fluent. But I just can't see it happening. I just finished school this year and the way Irish is taught in schools just is not working. Sure, we all have bits here & there, but after studying Irish in school for about 14 years, and pretty much none of us are fluent in it? Clearly there's something majorly wrong with the way it's being taught!

If you loved it that much, you'd learn it. I don't get this "I'd love to be able to speak it" or "it'd love the majority to be fluent" BUT not willign to take a course in it or make a bit of effort to seek out fellow speakers.

Teenagers in countries like France, Germany, Holland etc, they learn English in school. And somehow manage to become fluent in it. Whatever way English is taught in their schools clearly works, and it is the way that Irish should be taught in our schools if that's the case.

There are a wide varity of reasons why this is so, mostly nothing to do with education. The meain reason is the availablity of English media and the practical use of the langauge.

In the countries that speak excellent English (Benelux countries and Scandanavia) the main reason for thier English is that US/UK TV shows are transmitted in the original langauge with subtitles and not dubbed.

I can only see the Irish language dying out, sadly. Especially with this talk of making it an optional Leaving Cert subject (not that the Leaving Cert Irish course contributes much to fluency anyway, but still).

See what I read earlier about learning it! The idea of compulsory Irish has asbolutely no bearing on the revival/decline of the language. If you're unable or disinterested at 15, you're unlikley to be able or interested two years later.

People say the only way to become fluent in a language is to totally immerse yourself in it. It's pretty hard to do that with Irish considering most places don't speak it! Aside from a few small Gaeltacht areas but sure that's not much good to people like me who have to move to cities for college & all that.

I don't think fluency should be an immediate goal here. Just learn a few sentences, then enough to have a conversation. Seek out other Irish speakers and chat to them. In Irish. I think someone said earlier that there's more options open to people in Dublin than in other areas.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain · 09-09-2012 10:01PM

I know the curriculum for the LC has been changed, but students tell me it's still not enough.

The Gaeltachtaí are going to die out if the census figures are to be believed. I just don't see how it can be halted let alone reversed. I see it firsthand that English speakers are moving into the Gaeltacht and Irish speakers moving out.

I see the future of the language being in the Gaelscoil movement. All the children I've spoken to that go to these schools have great Irish and great enthusiasm for it.

The Gaelscoils are in heavy demand and are growing every year, creating more and more fluent Irish speakers and most importantly more lovers of the language.

It's evident on the forums here that there is nasty minority who are vocally hateful of the language, especially that guy "Iwasfrozen" - he says some horrible things and he is always in these Irish language threads. Then I realised that he is a militant Loyalist, that makes sense.

Perhaps the government could put more effort into opening Irish schools.

Imagine if every public school in Ireland was an Irish school. Problem solved?

LordSutch · 09-09-2012 10:46PM

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

It's evident on the forums here that there is nasty minority who are vocally hateful of the language, especially that guy "Iwasfrozen" - he says some horrible things and he is always in these Irish language threads. Then I realised that he is a militant Loyalist, that makes sense.

Best then to ignore attitudes like that and concentrate on the positive posts. At this stage I am fed up voicing my own ideas to maintain & stabilize the Irish language, but suffice to say I do think the Irish language needs a Government led 'root and branch overhaul', they also need to look at its place and its standing in Irish society today (in the 21st century).

Take school for example, I think the Gaelscoil is very good for the language, and those parents who are that way inclinded now have the choice to put their little ones into a Gaelscoil if they wish, which is no doubt a great vehicle to kickstarting their little ones into speaking Irish. I should however point out that its not really my cup of tea, and personally I am not too pushed on my own kids speaking Irish, but the choice is there for the parents who do, and I think that's a good thing in modern Ireland.

I could go on for pages about why Irish should not be mandatory in school (as a steady/positive way to stabilizing the language), but I have said it so many times before in other threads that I wont bore you again now. I do think the mandatory nature of its teaching should be looked at again (maybe after Junior Cert)? and I say this in the light of the fact that there still hasn't been that 'ignition' to spark the language back into life (even after eight decades of mandatory Irish in school)!

I think more harm has been done to the language through the 'force feeding' of . . . than any other single factor since the foundation of the State.

That's just my opinion.

fasttalkerchat · 09-09-2012 10:49PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Best then to ignore attitudes like that and concentrate on the positive posts. At this stage I am fed up voicing my own ideas to maintain & stabilize the Irish language, but suffice to say I do think the Irish language needs a Government led 'root and branch overhaul', they also need to look at its place and its standing in Irish society today (in the 21st century).

Take school for example, I think the Gaelscoil is very good for the language, and those parents who are that way inclinded now have the choice to put their little ones into a Gaelscoil if they wish, which is no doubt a great vehicle to kickstarting their little ones into speaking Irish. I should however point out that its not really my cup of tea, and personally I am not too pushed on my own kids speaking Irish, but the choice is there for the parents who do, and I think that's a good thing in modern Ireland - Viva la choice.

I could go on for pages about why Irish should not be mandatory in school (as a steady/positive way to stabilizing the language), but I have said it so many times before in other threads that I wont bore you again now. I do think the mandatory nature of its teaching should be looked at again (maybe after Junior Cert)? and I say this in the light of the fact that there still hasn't been that 'ignition' to spark the language back into life (even after eight decades of mandatory Irish in school)!

I think more harm has been done to the language through the 'force feeding' of . . . than any other single factor since the foundation of the State.

That's just my opinion.

I always thought you were a loyalist... Must have confused you with another poster! Agree with you on the force feeding point 100%

LordSutch · 09-09-2012 11:03PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I always thought you were a loyalist... Must have confused you with another poster! Agree with you on the force feeding point 100%

Loyalist NO, but I am a massive critic of the IRA and Sinn Fein, so maybe we have crossed swords on that topic in the past, which gave you the idea that becaue I am very anti IRA that I must be a Loyalist? I dunno, I am just guessing.

At least we seem agree on this topic.

Stained Class · 09-09-2012 11:30PM

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

I know the curriculum for the LC has been changed, but students tell me it's still not enough.

The Gaeltachtaí are going to die out if the census figures are to be believed. I just don't see how it can be halted let alone reversed. I see it firsthand that English speakers are moving into the Gaeltacht and Irish speakers moving out.

I see the future of the language being in the Gaelscoil movement. All the children I've spoken to that go to these schools have great Irish and great enthusiasm for it.

The Gaelscoils are in heavy demand and are growing every year, creating more and more fluent Irish speakers and most importantly more lovers of the language.

It's evident on the forums here that there is nasty minority who are vocally hateful of the language, especially that guy "Iwasfrozen" - he says some horrible things and he is always in these Irish language threads. Then I realised that he is a militant Loyalist, that makes sense.

Perhaps the government could put more effort into opening Irish schools.

Imagine if every public school in Ireland was an Irish school. Problem solved?

Nasty minority?

You're joking surely.

Anybody who disagrees with your opinion has to be a raving Unionist.:rolleyes:

Guess what? I'm not.

Your posts make me want to vomit & only reinforce my hatred of the Irish language & the blinkered types who have shoved it down our throats for the last 80 years.

Yere worse than the Brits FFS!:mad:

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain · 09-09-2012 11:43PM

Stained Class wrote: »

Your posts make me want to vomit & only reinforce my hatred of the Irish language & the blinkered types who have shoved it down our throats for the last 80 years.

Lol. I find it amusing that people can get so angry about such a trivial issue.

El Weirdo · 09-09-2012 11:46PM

<post inserted to get the front page looking normal again>

poeticseraphim · 10-09-2012 12:19AM

Wow i would never have expected to see the majority wanting it gone completely.:(

Well so far...anyway....

And the previous posts really do point to the problem with Irish...it is a hijacked identity....Irish people are individuals..this association with nationalism and stuff cannot represent modern people...and same goes with conservatism catholicism and socialism...it is hijacked by so much

If you voice anything but Gaelscoil Groupthink ..you are a westbrit.....

You Gaelgoirs come of as hating us Anglophones....we are your people and we love our language the language of shakespeare...:P Can't we be proud and love our langauge too and still be your people???

I don't hate Irish...i just think right know we are unable to affotrd it..

Maybe native speakers should tep up to the plate and voluteer to run clubs etc....

Start drama clubs and writers clubs....and start political debating clubs..MAKE IT RELEVANT

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain · 10-09-2012 12:32AM

poeticseraphim wrote: »

You Gaelgoirs come of as hating us Anglophones

That's such a sweeping generalisation that holds little truth. How many Gaeilgeoirs have you met to come to that conclusion, and where are you meeting them?

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Wow i would never have expected to see the majority wanting it gone completely.:(

I see it a different way.

33% want it gone, but the majority 66% want it to stay in some form or another. Either way, it's a daft pole and hardly scientific!

girl2 · 10-09-2012 12:35AM

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

That's such a sweeping generalisation that holds little truth. How many Gaeilgeoirs have you met to come to that conclusion, and where are you meeting them?

I see it a different way.

33% want it gone, but the majority 66% want it to stay in some form or another. Either way, it's a daft pole and hardly scientific!

Heres you away off with your long name again. Am only posting here cos my screen is wrecked again with the long name. So a total waste of a post I'll have you know.

The future of Irish

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