Should we scrap the Croke Park agreement?

cursai · 08-09-2012 05:21PM

I've no problem with the idea of scrapping the crime park agreement because there are a lot of inefficiencies in the public. And the fact fact that the CPA is protecting a lot of higher paid public servants who desperately need a pay cut.......WHAT GALLS AND ANNOYS ME Is that dumb people think that by doing away with it all these things will be fixed. And that its the only impediment for the government to make serious changes for efficiency and whatever. The CPA is there protecting lower wages earners as well.
The gobernment aren't interested in efficiencies or real structural change. Its all talk and garbage. As soon as this CPA is finished the lower earners will be sucked dry and the higher servants will STILL have their wages.

bobbysands81 · 08-09-2012 10:56PM

tanko wrote: »

Public sector workers are always very quick to point out that their pay has been cut since 2008. They never mention the massive pay rises they received from 2000 to 2007. In real terms they are still far better off than they were in 2000.

Isn't it strange that they dont want their pay benchmarked against pay in the private sector now?

The croke park agreement should be ripped up. The country cant afford it.

Wrong.

The country can't afford to rip up the Croke Park Agreement.

Saving us billions and has brought in every single change in work practice that Govt could ever want whilst copper fastening unprecedented wage cuts with no industrial unrest.

If folk really want the CPA ripped up then they better be very careful what they wish for. Have folk thought about the industrial unrest that will hit this country and the associated job losses that it will cost in the private sector and how much further into recession and depression this country will spiral?

kippy · 08-09-2012 10:59PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Wrong.

The country can't afford to rip up the Croke Park Agreement.

Saving us billions and has brought in every single change in work practice that Govt could ever want whilst copper fastening unprecedented wage cuts with no industrial unrest.

If folk really want the CPA ripped up then they better be very careful what they wish for. Have folk thought about the industrial unrest that will hit this country and the associated job losses that it will cost in the private sector and how much further into recession and depression this country will spiral?

I dont think they have to be honest.

Best option is not to rip up anything, thats just keyboard warrior speak.
Renegotiate, see what the unions will give, ask for more.

Japer · 08-09-2012 11:29PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Have folk thought about the industrial unrest that will hit this country and the associated job losses that it will cost in the private sector

Average public sector pay in the UK is stg 21.5k a year, so if the public sector here had any decency or moral fibre they would reduce their average public sector pay dramatically from its current average of 49k a year without threatening or even dreaming of "industrial unrest" lol ( considering the state of the countrries financies, that we are being bailed out by the IMF / UK etc ).

kippy · 08-09-2012 11:34PM

Japer wrote: »

Average public sector pay in the UK is stg 21.5k a year, so if the public sector here had any decency or moral fibre they would reduce their average public sector pay dramatically from its current average of 49k a year without threatening or even dreaming of "industrial unrest" lol ( considering the state of the countrries financies, that we are being bailed out by the IMF / UK etc ).

Why would ANYONE, and I include you and other posters in this thread on this, willingly give up a significant portion of their wages, when they have the ways and means to resist that?
I mean my mortgage, food costs, insurances of every variety, electric, fuel, childcare etc are going to go down if I go to those providers and tell them they are among the highest in europe and I can no longer pay them.

Especially when you consider where close to 70 billion will have gone at the end of this process.

Japer · 08-09-2012 11:43PM

kippy wrote: »

Why would ANYONE, and I include you and other posters in this thread on this, willingly give up a significant portion of their wages, when they have the ways and means to resist that?

moral fibre and doing whats good for the country / good for the medium and long term for EVERYONE.

The current situation of our grossly overpaid and overpensioned public service, propped by by huge foreign borrowing, is unsustainable.

kippy · 08-09-2012 11:45PM

Japer wrote: »

moral fibre and doing whats good for the country / good for the medium and long term for EVERYONE.

The current situation of our grossly overpaid and overpensioned public service, propped by by huge foreign borrowing, is unsustainable.

Moral Fibre, really, at this late stage?
Where exactly in the history of the world does moral fibre come into anything?
It's very obviously not good for everyone.

As a rough guide.
A PS Staff member on 45K per annum gross, would take home roughly 28K per annum.
Assume a mortgage of 1000 per month.
Assume childcare of 700 per month.
Assume heating bill of 1500 per annum
Assume insurances of all types (Car, Home (and associated), Health,) 1600 Per annum
Assume soon to be arriving to a house near you, water and house tax. Perhaps 700 per annum,
We're up at 24+K per annum on those expenses alone.
Without getting into, food, clothing+footwear, Motor Tax, Motor Maintenance, and other expenses which could be reduced if required, TV/Phone/Broadband etc

Thats having 1 young kid.

You think a person in that, or similiar situation, who will not have access to medical card, totally free third level education etc will willingly give up 20-30% of their salary?

Smidge · 08-09-2012 11:59PM

We all know that a harsh budget is coming.

I cannot condone the government hitting SW etc at a time when it is very apparent that there are simply not enough jobs to go around.
I think it would serve people who are lucky enough to have their jobs that SW is people's INCOME(and in the vast,vast number of cases have become unemplyed through no fault of their own).
Electricity, Gas, Food, Petrol etc has gone up for EVERYBODY and that includes people whose income comes in the form of SW. There is no wriggle room.

I cannot see how the Croke Park agreement cannot be re-visited at this time.

Japer · 09-09-2012 12:03AM

kippy wrote: »

Moral Fibre, really, at this late stage?

Its never too late to help the country...and ensure all of our mid and long term futures;)

Think of how our public service have creamed it this last ten or 12 years....and how much lower the public services are paid in other developed countries, for example. Think of the UK with average public sector pay of only 21.5k, and having to pay property tax, water rates, higher fuel costs etc.

Wait until you and your colleagues are on an average of less than that Kippy:D
That day is certain to come, given our worsening finances and the fact the IMF etc is here.

Galwayguy35 · 09-09-2012 05:24AM

Einhard wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you agree that we need mature debate and accurate comments, but then still insist that a majority (ie over 50%) of private sector workers have been laid off since this recesson hit. And that is simply untrue. You also state that a majority of private sector workers have taken a pay reduction. This is often stated as a fact, yet I have not seen any data to back it up, and have read and heard of reports over the past years that would indicate that it is not exactly the case. Apologies for not having said reports to hand right now, but even were I never to find them, it does not change the fact that you are claiming something for which you have no proof.

Of course the private sector has been hit hardest, how can anyone say otherwise?
The construction sector is gone to the wall with little prospect of recovery anytime soon, pubs are closing as people have no money to go out anymore, every situation like this amounts to people out of work.

I said that many private sector workers have taken a reduction in wages just to keep their jobs, you can go on about data and links but if you look around you it is happening to people in every corner of the country.
My brother has had to take a pay cut of €20 a week as the factory he works in is going bad, might not seem much to you but when you're in a low paid job it's alot.
Private sector workers accept this because we are desperate to keep our jobs and don't want to see the company/emplpyer we work for go to the wall.

This is the day to day life of a lot of low/minimum wage private sector worker in the Ireland of 2012.

You want factual information, well there it is.

kippy · 09-09-2012 07:10AM

Japer wrote: »

Its never too late to help the country...and ensure all of our mid and long term futures;)

Think of how our public service have creamed it this last ten or 12 years....and how much lower the public services are paid in other developed countries, for example. Think of the UK with average public sector pay of only 21.5k, and having to pay property tax, water rates, higher fuel costs etc.

Wait until you and your colleagues are on an average of less than that Kippy:D
That day is certain to come, given our worsening finances and the fact the IMF etc is here.

Creamed it? Really? A select few may have "creamed it" but the whole of the public sector most certainly have not.
Your figure for an "average public sector worker" is about 7K too low as well.
I suspect you are using figures that do not take into account worksharing and part time
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065479/Public-sector-workers-earn-4-000-year-pay-premium-compared-private-staff.html
(Works out at about 36000 euro at todays rates, or 40K at the rate as off jan 2008)

The day the public service in this country is on an average of less than 25K euros is the day this country is truly fcuked.

maryk123 · 09-09-2012 12:30PM

The reality that people dont understand is that ps workers have bills, loans and mortgages like everyone else. cutting their wages is not going to save the country its just going to make everyone else happy that they are feeling extra pain. where would we be without the services they provide, have people visited hospitals lately to see the pressue staff are under already due to people running out of the public sector retiring early these people have not been replaced and if the people working there take any more hits they may as well go on the dole. dont even start about the dole where in the world would a government hand an 18 year old who has never worked a day in his/her life and contributed nothing to the economy 100 suro to sit on their arse at home and people are criticising the croke park agreement - there are a lot of other cuts that could happen eg anyone who is 18 and finished school should not get a penny where is the incentive to work jesus i never say 100 at 18 and we are shovelling it out to them. when the croke park cuts wages people still wont be happy and there will be a lot more people struggling financially.

kraggy · 09-09-2012 12:42PM

galwayrush wrote: »

My experience,
Some weeks i have no income at all,others, a partial wage. despite this, the revenue will hound me for various taxes.
No overdraft from bank to help with the lean weeks with slow cash flow,
Had to stop paying a pension ages ago, in the real world we have to find the money ourselves to pay for one.
No health insurance, no social welfare,
Hard cash has to be found to pay basic utilities and to buy food, no guarentee of getting paid any week, so it's a constant struggle.
I really envy those who have secure guarenteed to be paid employment with the perks that go with it.

Self-employment was your own choice. You could have got a job in the public sector if you had wanted to but you chose differently.

Nobody forced you to be self-employed.

woodoo · 09-09-2012 12:44PM

All this attention on the public service as if it will solve our problems to cut it. It won't, not even close. People would wake up the day after a 20 or 30% cut in the PS paybill and realise it hasn't done a whole lot for the deficit.

You are all being played by the media. They are stoking it all up so people will listen to their radio programs, read their papers watch their current affairs show.

Reekwind · 09-09-2012 12:50PM

Japer wrote: »

Average public sector pay in the UK is stg 21.5k a year, so if the public sector here had any decency or moral fibre they would reduce their average public sector pay dramatically from its current average of 49k a year without threatening or even dreaming of "industrial unrest" lol

Actually, the median public sector wage in the UK is in fact £29k (approx €35k) while the median private sector wage is £25k (€31k)

cantdecide · 09-09-2012 12:51PM

Any stats as to how many public sector lives have been ruined as a result of the economy? What about stats as to how many public sector employees have taken their own lives as a result of the effects of the recession? Any public sector workers have to emigrate over their pay cuts?

What was the question again?

ncdadam · 09-09-2012 12:54PM

woodoo wrote: »

All this attention on the public service as if it will solve our problems to cut it. It won't, not even close. People would wake up the day after a 20 or 30% cut in the PS paybill and realise it hasn't done a whole lot for the deficit.

You are all being played by the media. They are stoking it all up so people will listen to their radio programs, read their papers watch their current affairs show.

The paranoia is beginning to show now.

Reekwind · 09-09-2012 12:57PM

I honestly don't understand the sadism of the cantdecide's post; the wishing of death and misery on teachers, nurses, etc, for actually being able to defend their rights and working conditions

How's this for a radical thought: start channelling some of that misanthropic energy into actually looking to better your own situation. Organise, protest, unionise, whatever, but stop knocking people down just because they've done better in defending their living standards than yourself

Otherwise the only alternative is a race to the bottom where everyone competes to see who can inflict them most pain on themselves. You wouldn't know it from this thread but the lesson from the past few years is that unions work

It's like watching lemmings jump off a cliff sometimes

goz83 · 09-09-2012 01:05PM

My wife is a teacher at second level and has been teaching for about 7 years now, since she left college. It has been by no means an easy road financially, considering we had 2 young children by the time we made a decision to buy a house and settle down for the kids. My wifes salary has always been the "stable" income and my income was at times very high and at times very low (sales). As a private sector worker (self-employed) I can say it's not an easy road and I have recently closed a small building and maintenance company I ran for a short time. I am still self employed, but It's by no means a comfortable place to be. I can never be sure that clients will be coming consistently, but thankfully they do and it's mostly by referrals that I keep my business running.

To get to my point, the "stable" salary has been eroded terribly since 2009 and more and more, my unpredictable income has been relied on to pay the big mortgage (we didn't buy a mansion. we bought a 40 year old, small 3-bed semi from my dad in north dublin). It's hard enough right now to keep the bills paid, but we're lucky to have her mother taking the kids when we're at work for a fraction of the cost of private childcare. If my wife were to only start teaching now, we wouldn't be able to pay the mortgage, let alone the other bills. So while it might seem grossly unfair (and in some cases it is i'm sure) to pay a new teacher a third less than someone who started a couple of years ago; one must also take into account that the new teacher is likely to benefit from half price houses compared to the prices in late 2008.

I also want to say that the extra hours that teachers have to do is a total joke. They are being very poorly implemented (at her school at least). Instead of doing her normal 9-5 and then collecting our 3 children from her mother on her way home, they have introduced these extra hours, which have a very negative impact, for what I see to be hours wasted doing nothing. They are not teaching hours. They are admin hours, which I understand teachers would normally do between classes, or at home. Sometimes she won't get home til 9pm and I have had to cut my working day in half (i start at 12 usually) to go out of my way and collect the kids and take care of them. Don't get me wrong, I love having the quality time with them, but this impacts on my prime time hours, where the lions share of my income is made.

I do believe that the CPA needs to be reopened, but only for those earning over 100k. I think its important to say my wife earns far less than 50k gross, so i'm not just putting the slicing bar a little above her salary. I also strongly disagree with the fact they have no right to strike under the CPA. On that clause alone, the government are winners. The CPA is probably the only thing that prevented a Greece in Ireland.

whiskey_bar · 09-09-2012 01:10PM

yes i think it needs to be renegotiated but reforms in this country should not stop there

their are plenty of closed shops which have not been touched by the rescession , the GP , dentist and energy sectors , sheltered sectors like this need to be opened up to proper competition ,that way when pay cuts and wellfare cuts arrive , the hit will be softened as going to the local doc should cost close to 30 euro than 50 , esb workers reduced salarys should lower energy bills etc

whiskey_bar · 09-09-2012 01:12PM

goz83 wrote: »

My wife is a teacher at second level and has been teaching for about 7 years now, since she left college. It has been by no means an easy road financially, considering we had 2 young children by the time we made a decision to buy a house and settle down for the kids. My wifes salary has always been the "stable" income and my income was at times very high and at times very low (sales). As a private sector worker (self-employed) I can say it's not an easy road and I have recently closed a small building and maintenance company I ran for a short time. I am still self employed, but It's by no means a comfortable place to be. I can never be sure that clients will be coming consistently, but thankfully they do and it's mostly by referrals that I keep my business running.

To get to my point, the "stable" salary has been eroded terribly since 2009 and more and more, my unpredictable income has been relied on to pay the big mortgage (we didn't buy a mansion. we bought a 40 year old, small 3-bed semi from my dad in north dublin). It's hard enough right now to keep the bills paid, but we're lucky to have her mother taking the kids when we're at work for a fraction of the cost of private childcare. If my wife were to only start teaching now, we wouldn't be able to pay the mortgage, let alone the other bills. So while it might seem grossly unfair (and in some cases it is i'm sure) to pay a new teacher a third less than someone who started a couple of years ago; one must also take into account that the new teacher is likely to benefit from half price houses compared to the prices in late 2008.

I also want to say that the extra hours that teachers have to do is a total joke. They are being very poorly implemented (at her school at least). Instead of doing her normal 9-5 and then collecting our 3 children from her mother on her way home, they have introduced these extra hours, which have a very negative impact, for what I see to be hours wasted doing nothing. They are not teaching hours. They are admin hours, which I understand teachers would normally do between classes, or at home. Sometimes she won't get home til 9pm and I have had to cut my working day in half (i start at 12 usually) to go out of my way and collect the kids and take care of them. Don't get me wrong, I love having the quality time with them, but this impacts on my prime time hours, where the lions share of my income is made.

I do believe that the CPA needs to be reopened, but only for those earning over 100k. I think its important to say my wife earns far less than 50k gross, so i'm not just putting the slicing bar a little above her salary. I also strongly disagree with the fact they have no right to strike under the CPA. On that clause alone, the government are winners. The CPA is probably the only thing that prevented a Greece in Ireland.

unfortunatley their are not near enough people earning over 100 k for cuts there to make a dent in the deficit , their are still too many people earning between 45 and 60 k per year , teachers , guards , nurses etc , harsh reality

Monty Burnz · 09-09-2012 01:18PM

whiskey_bar wrote: »

yes i think it needs to be renegotiated but reforms in this country should not stop there

their are plenty of closed shops which have not been touched by the rescession , the GP , dentist and energy sectors , sheltered sectors like this need to be opened up to proper competition ,that way when pay cuts and wellfare cuts arrive , the hit will be softened as going to the local doc should cost close to 30 euro than 50 , esb workers reduced salarys should lower energy bills etc

The legal profession needs to be looked at - I believe the ridiculously high cost of legal fees is something the Troika has issues with (and of course these costs affect us all through our taxes and our own interactions with the legal industry). Hopefully the Troika will force something through against the will of the immensely powerful legal lobby.

whiskey_bar · 09-09-2012 01:26PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The legal profession needs to be looked at - I believe the ridiculously high cost of legal fees is something the Troika has issues with (and of course these costs affect us all through our taxes and our own interactions with the legal industry). Hopefully the Troika will force something through against the will of the immensely powerful legal lobby.

the legal profession overall dont earn near as much as the likes of the medical profession , the upper echelons do indeed make out like bandits but your average solicitor earns nothing like your average GP , cost of a consulation with an average solicitor in a provincial town is no more than a hundred euro for an hour , a gp would earn double that in the same time , a consultant , four times that

Monty Burnz · 09-09-2012 01:32PM

whiskey_bar wrote: »

the legal profession overall dont earn near as much as the likes of the medical profession , the upper echelons do indeed make out like bandits but your average solicitor earns nothing like your average GP , cost of a consulation with an average solicitor in a provincial town is no more than a hundred euro for an hour , a gp would earn double that in the same time , a consultant , four times that

Yes, but it is still far too much, and it is a closed shop.

whiskey_bar · 09-09-2012 01:34PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yes, but it is still far too much, and it is a closed shop.

not nearly to the degree the likes of the GP sector is

Monty Burnz · 09-09-2012 01:36PM

whiskey_bar wrote: »

not nearly to the degree the likes of the GP sector is

So we only fix some of the closed shops?

cantdecide · 09-09-2012 01:55PM

Reekwind wrote: »

I honestly don't understand the sadism of the cantdecide's post; the wishing of death and misery on teachers, nurses, etc,

That would have been outrageous if that were what I had said.

Reekwind wrote: »

start channelling some of that misanthropic energy into actually looking to better your own situation. Organise, protest, unionise, whatever, but stop knocking people down just because they've done better in defending their living standards than yourself

Are we meant to protest entire sectors of the economy back into activity? Why do some choose to believe that the private sector isn't necessary. At this stage, yes, everyone in the private sector wishes they were ward of the state too but that's impossible.

ahnowbrowncow · 09-09-2012 02:18PM

goz83 wrote: »

To get to my point, the "stable" salary has been eroded terribly since 2009 and more and more, my unpredictable income has been relied on to pay the big mortgage (we didn't buy a mansion. we bought a 40 year old, small 3-bed semi from my dad in north dublin). It's hard enough right now to keep the bills paid, but we're lucky to have her mother taking the kids when we're at work for a fraction of the cost of private childcare. If my wife were to only start teaching now, we wouldn't be able to pay the mortgage, let alone the other bills. So while it might seem grossly unfair (and in some cases it is i'm sure) to pay a new teacher a third less than someone who started a couple of years ago; one must also take into account that the new teacher is likely to benefit from half price houses compared to the prices in late 2008.

It is grossly unfair. She's no better qualified, in some cases they are less qualified because a lot of new teachers these days also have their masters. There is no valid reason why they should be paid more than new teachers and hopefully they'll be brought down to that level fairly soon.

Sorry to be harsh but having an unsustainable mortgage is not a valid reason not to have a pay cut, if you had waited a couple of years you would also be able to avail of these half price houses you think these new teachers are benefiting from.

goz83 wrote: »

I also want to say that the extra hours that teachers have to do is a total joke. They are being very poorly implemented (at her school at least). Instead of doing her normal 9-5 and then collecting our 3 children from her mother on her way home, they have introduced these extra hours, which have a very negative impact, for what I see to be hours wasted doing nothing. They are not teaching hours. They are admin hours, which I understand teachers would normally do between classes, or at home. Sometimes she won't get home til 9pm and I have had to cut my working day in half (i start at 12 usually) to go out of my way and collect the kids and take care of them.

What extra hours?
The provision, with effect from the start of the 2010/11 school year, of an additional hour per week to be available to facilitate, at the discretion of management, school planning, continuous professional development, induction, substitution and supervision (including supervision immediately before and after school times).

Einhard · 09-09-2012 02:19PM

Japer wrote: »

In the overall scheme of things the "reforms" have been tiny. There was an Irish born + bred teacher on the radio recently who is now teaching in England, and he compared the teachers lot in the UK with here. In the UK, teachers hare paid considerably less, work longer hours, do lots of parent/teacher meetings in the evenings, have much less holidays , have less of a pension etc.

There have been many significant reforms in the public sector over the past few years. Anyone who states otherwise is either uninformed or delusional. Either way, it's not the healthiest manner in which to debate.

One such reform is that parent teacher meetings are now held outside school hours...just like the UK. Would it be too much to ask that you actually inform yourself before posting? It's somewhat tiring to have to constantly correct such basic errors of fact.

Public sector pay is still double what it was 10 years ago. Slash it 50%, now
that would be a "huge reform".

This is a ludicrous suggestion. It boggles the mind that someone would seriously suggest such a thing. Halving the pay for public sector workers would ensure that new teachers would get €13500 a year. Goof luck trying to attract anyone into the profession.

More significantly, cutting PS pay by 50% overnight would have a devestating impact on the economy. Tens of thousands of people would go bankrupt; mortgages would go into arrears and homes be foreclosed; promising students would be unable to go to college...the impact, both economically and socially would be absoluetly disastarous. I really find it hard to believe that you're seriously suggesting such an insane course of action.

Japer wrote: »

Not just for teachers - but pay and pension for the public service is worse in the UK than it is here. Average public sector salary in the UK is £21.5k a year - and there is controversy there about how high that is. And they have to pay household tax, water charges, higher fuel costs etc in the UK.

If I was a public servant or p.s. taxpayer in Germany, Denmark, Holland , UK etc I'd be mighty pissed off my taxes were were being lent to the Irish government to pay the public sector in Ireland so much more than they themselves get.

Japer wrote: »

Average public sector pay in the UK is stg 21.5k a year, so if the public sector here had any decency or moral fibre they would reduce their average public sector pay dramatically from its current average of 49k a year without threatening or even dreaming of "industrial unrest" lol ( considering the state of the countrries financies, that we are being bailed out by the IMF / UK etc ).

Where are you pulng your figures from? I did a bit of checking, and according to the Guardian, the median public sector pay in the UK is significantly higher than you're figure- at almost £28000, it works out at around €35000, which brings it significantly closer to the Irish figure that you cite...and for which you provide no links.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Of course the private sector has been hit hardest, how can anyone say otherwise?
The construction sector is gone to the wall with little prospect of recovery anytime soon, pubs are closing as people have no money to go out anymore, every situation like this amounts to people out of work.

If you look at the private sector as one big homogenous group, then yes, it's been hardest hit. But to look at it in that way is illusory and somewhat dishonest because, while many private sector workers have been hit hard, many more have not.

In the public sector, everyone has been hit. That's simply not true in the private sector. Again, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be more cuts, but rather trying to bring a little reality to the debate.

I said that many private sector workers have taken a reduction in wages just to
keep their jobs, you can go on about data and links but if you look around you
it is happening to people in every corner of the country.

My brother has had to take a pay cut of €20 a week as the factory he works in is going bad, might not seem much to you but when you're in a low paid job it's alot.

So if the evidence and data don't support your position, then ignore them? If people in the private sector operated their businesses in such a manner, they wouldn't be long in goign to the wall.

The simple point is- not everyone in the private sector has taken a wage cut. Everyone in the public sector has. Your subjective examples are irrelevant really- they carry no statistical weight. For your brother and his €20 cut, I can offer the example of my brother who has enjoyed several increases in pay over the past two years. Does that mean that everyone private sector worker is better off over the past few years? Of course not, and I wouldn't claim it on such subjective examples, but you are trying to do exactly that.

You want factual information, well there it is.

Hmmm, I think I'll differ on this analysis.

cantdecide wrote: »

Any public sector workers have to emigrate over their pay cuts?

Me. I'm off next month.

kippy · 09-09-2012 02:41PM

cantdecide wrote: »

That would have been outrageous if that were what I had said.

Are we meant to protest entire sectors of the economy back into activity? Why do some choose to believe that the private sector isn't necessary. At this stage, yes, everyone in the private sector wishes they were ward of the state too but that's impossible.

What do you mean by "ward of the state"?

The private sector is of course necessary and I don't think anyone here has stated that it isnt. (It's an impossibility for it not to exist either in some form obviously)
A health and flourishing private sector is beneficial for everyone.

Should we scrap the Croke Park agreement?

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