Abortion

Millicent · 06-09-2012 02:34PM

purplepanda wrote: »

My views are that terminations should only be allowed under 12 weeks or even preferably less, unless in very exceptional circumstances. I know people now in their early '70's who still feel pain & even guilt over this issue . I think there should be proper unbiased advice from both perspectives beforehand in any case.

Whilst I think abortion is wrong, it will happen anyway as many women will just leave Ireland & go overseas for the procedure. Or else maybe attempt to carry it out themselves or with others.

Even David Steel, the MP who passed the British law in 1967, has said he didn't expect the numbers of terminations to be as high as they have been for the last few decades. The numbers of abortions in many countries are far too high IMO

There also needs to be proper birth control policies, like the Dutch & Scandinavian models to drastically reduce unwanted pregnancy.

So abortion yes, with restrictions, 12 weeks maxinum, not on demand up until 24 weeks or more. Combined with a forthright birth control policy.

I would not vote yes given a choice, for the current laws in many western countries.

I have to say, I would agree with a lot of that outside medical conditions present in the foetus that appear after the 12 weeks. It'd also be just a peachy idea if the Irish medical system could give scans before the 12-week mark (I've heard women going as far as 20). The cynical side of me says that's not coincidental.

OldNotWIse · 06-09-2012 02:34PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Please elaborate?

What seems to be happening is you are not being allowed to commend a woman who has survived an abortion and selflessly choosen to give her baby life, because to the hysterical, reactionary, inflammatory pro choicers with massive feminist chips on their shoulders, what you are actually saying is that women who are raped and choose to abort their babies are cowards...this is the message other posters are taking from it, as opposed to a message that you are actually suggesting.

Of course this is not the case. Let's call a spade a spade - a woman who is raped and keeps her baby IS to be commended. a woman who survives rape regardless of what she chooses IS to eb commended also. But the pro choicers cannot see this. If you compliment group A, in their heads, you are automatically insulting group B, and its all part of this little "them Vs us" mindset that they are stuck in.

Sponge25 · 06-09-2012 02:34PM

eviltwin wrote: »

With all due respect you don't know the reasons and I don't want to go into them here. All I will say is that things changed early on in the pregnancy and we thought about what our options are and chose abortion because it was the best choice for us at that time

I have lost a dear friend as a result of this, someone I know well who I thought would understand didn't and that's fine, I think everyone needs to do what they need to do and I don't have any hard feelings over it. The thing is though more than likely you know people who have been there, its just that most people don't talk about it.

I can't help if you think I'm evil and to be honest I don't really care. The people who matter most to me know and have never judged and that's really all that matters to me.

I don't think you're evil but I think it was a highly selfish decission. People who have multiple abortions are most certainly psychopathic in my opinion! Lack of empathy is the hallmark of the sociopath!

Jaxxy · 06-09-2012 02:35PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Why would you do something with the possibility of procreation if that's not what you wanted? I don't want to have a baby yet but I would be really happy if my gf get pregnant, so that's why we have sex. If she would abort the baby if she got pregnant believe me, we wouldn't have sex but she wouldn't.

No contraception is 100% effective. Accidents happen. Just as a matter of interest, did you ask your girlfriend before you had sex for the first time what her views on contraception/abortion/pregnancy were?

If I knew you and was very fond of you for all my life and I found out you had an abortion i'd never speak to you again. It's the HIEGHT of negligence and selfishness. I can scarcely think of something more evil and depraved!

You don't agree with abortion, fair enough. But not to support someone or to never speak to someone you care about or are "fond of" ever again because they did something you disagree with? Well, IMO, that individual would be better off without you in their life anyway. You are not superior because of your opinion by the way.

EDIT:

Sponge25 wrote: »

I don't think you're evil but I think it was a highly selfish decission. People who have multiple abortions are most certainly psychopathic in my opinion! Lack of empathy is the hallmark of the sociopath!

It is you who are the one showing a serious lack of empathy here.

Nowhere in this thread has someone stated that having multiple abortions as a method of contraception is a normal occurrence. What was being discussed here is the notion that counselling should not be made available to those who have had abortions. And later, as a consequence, the merits of allowing abortions to women in certain circumstances.

Millicent · 06-09-2012 02:37PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I can't help if you think I'm evil and to be honest I don't really care.

Your name's not exactly helping matters, to be fair... :pac:*

*P.s. I don't think you're evil at all.

Millicent · 06-09-2012 02:37PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

I don't think you're evil but I think it was a highly selfish decission. People who have multiple abortions are most certainly psychopathic in my opinion! Lack of empathy is the hallmark of the sociopath!

So you want psychopaths to have more kids, is your position here? 0.o

Sponge25 · 06-09-2012 02:38PM

eviltwin wrote: »

With all due respect you don't know the reasons and I don't want to go into them here. All I will say is that things changed early on in the pregnancy and we thought about what our options are and chose abortion because it was the best choice for us at that time

Shouldn't a mother do what's best for their child at the time!?

Sponge25 · 06-09-2012 02:38PM

Millicent wrote: »

So you want psychopaths to have more kids, is your position here? 0.o

Ofcourse not, I don't control who has kids and who doesn't but I most certainly don't want them being aborted!

AnonoBoy · 06-09-2012 02:39PM

This thread has been on the go for a while now......... so have we sorted out ths issue yet guys?

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 02:39PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

I don't think you're evil but I think it was a highly selfish decission. People who have multiple abortions are most certainly psychopathic in my opinion! Lack of empathy is the hallmark of the sociopath!

I had one abortion not several.

I am certainly not lacking in empathy either.

As for being selfish its a matter of how you look at it I guess. All I know is at the time we had other people to think of and we were trying to deal with the needs of the people in the here and now as best we could.

Zulu · 06-09-2012 02:39PM

...and girls.

Millicent · 06-09-2012 02:42PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Ofcourse not, I don't control who has kids and who doesn't but I most certainly don't want them being aborted!

But you would rather people who you consider to be sociopaths to have the children they would have otherwise aborted, so they can be brought up by sociopaths?

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 02:42PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Shouldn't a mother do what's best for their child at the time!?

I was a mother, I had a child already and I will always put the needs of my children in the here and now, my husband and myself before any pregnancy.

Gurgle · 06-09-2012 02:43PM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

This thread has been on the go for a while now......... so have we sorted out ths issue yet guys?

Yeah, all sorted.
We've conclusively established that we can't agree on how many cells are required for human rights.

Sponge25 · 06-09-2012 02:47PM

Jaxxy wrote: »

No contraception is 100% effective. Accidents happen. Just as a matter of interest, did you ask your girlfriend before you had sex for the first time what her views on contraception/abortion/pregnancy were?

You don't agree with abortion, fair enough. But not to support someone or to never speak to someone you care about or are "fond of" ever again because they did something you disagree with? Well, IMO, that individual would be better off without you in their life anyway. You are not superior because of your opinion by the way.

EDIT:

It is you who are the one showing a serious lack of empathy here.

Nowhere in this thread has someone stated that having multiple abortions as a method of contraception is a normal occurrence. What was being discussed here is the notion that counselling should not be made available to those who have had abortions. And later, as a consequence, the merits of allowing abortions to women in certain circumstances.

I have alot of empathy for good people! I'd support my friend with anything regardless of how badly it affected me, I care about good people just as much as myself but theirs certain things that I cannot accept; It's not one of those things I could change my opinion on, I can't help how I feel. I feel it's terribly wrong and highly selfish.

Why not carry the baby and give it up for adoption! Like think about it, that baby could live to be 80 and have 5 kids and 25 grandchildren! I dunno how anyone can justify abortion except from unusual cases of medical emergency or rape. As I said, someone who is raped and carries the baby and gives it up for adoption is a hero to me. I would have NOTHING but respect for them.

There's alot of couples out there who are heart broken cause they can't have a baby and they are sickened at people having abortions whilst they are trying so desperately to have a baby. So it is other peoples buisiness! Certain private matters do affect other people and hence are other peoples buisiness!

Just give the baby up for adoption and let him/her have an honest chance in the race of life. We are one of the very few mammals who have such a disregard for our offspring. Rats are better mothers than some woman! Don't get me wrong, alot of woman are very good mothers and us men couldn't live without a woman, we wouldn't know what was going on if the woman dissapeared.

OldNotWIse · 06-09-2012 02:47PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Yeah, all sorted.
We've conclusively established that we can't agree on how many cells are required for human rights.

...and that really, nobody is actually going to change their views anyway

Khannie · 06-09-2012 02:49PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

...and that really, nobody is actually going to change their views anyway

The one guaranteed truth in the abortion debate.

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 02:50PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

I have alot of empathy for good people! I'd support my friend with anything regardless of how badly it affected me, I care about good people just as much as myself but theirs certain things that I cannot accept; It's not one of those things I could change my opinion on, I can't help how I feel. I feel it's terribly wrong and highly selfish.

Why not carry the baby and give it up for adoption! Like think about it, that baby could live to be 80 and have 5 kids and 25 grandchildren! I dunno how anyone can justify abortion except from unusual cases of medical emergency or rape. As I said, someone who is raped and carries the baby and gives it up for adoption is a hero to me. I would have NOTHING but respect for them.

There's alot of couples out there who are heart broken cause they can't have a baby and they are sickened at people having abortions whilst they are trying so desperately to have a baby. So it is other peoples buisiness! Certain private matters do affect other people and hence are other peoples buisiness!

Just give the baby up for adoption and let him/her have an honest chance in the race of life. We are one of the very few mammals who have such a disregard for our offspring. Rats are better mothers than some woman! Don't get me wrong, alot of woman are very good mothers and us men couldn't live without a woman, we wouldn't know what was going on if the woman dissapeared.

Its not the duty of pregnant women to provide babies for childless couples.

Having an abortion does not mean a woman is going to make a bad mother in the future or is a bad mother to her existing children.

Sponge25 · 06-09-2012 02:51PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I was a mother, I had a child already and I will always put the needs of my children in the here and now, my husband and myself before any pregnancy.

Why not carry the baby and give him/her up for adoption and thus an honest chance at life? There's alot of men and woman who are trying desperately to have a baby and certain woman take having a baby in such low regard they have abortions.

If your partner didn't want you to have an abortion would you have? If my gf had an abortion (which she most certainly would not) I would be heartbroken for the rest of my life!

OldNotWIse · 06-09-2012 02:53PM

Gurgle wrote: »

You need to learn the difference between disagreeing with someone and judging them.

Really?
Click this link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/
Any day, any time, you'll find worse.

I think Sponge is being deliberately inflammatory and troll-like, but if he decides that he is not comfortable being in someone's company that's his choice. I found out that a girl I used to work with had one and I distanced myself from her too. I didn't tell anyone, or shout "baby killer" or any of the other stereotypical responses, she didnt even know I knew, but for me, being around her was a reminder of how uncomfortable I am with the whole situation and I felt a little...queasy or something, I dont know. Perhaps it was judgement. But it is still my perogative to distance myself from someone who I do not like, and who reminds me of something that is, IMO, so wrong with the world.

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 02:56PM

Sponge25 wrote: »

Why not carry the baby and give him/her up for adoption and thus an honest chance at life? There's alot of men and woman who are trying desperately to have a baby and certain woman take having a baby in such low regard they have abortions.

If your partner didn't want you to have an abortion would you have? If my gf had an abortion (which she most certainly would not) I would be heartbroken for the rest of my life!

My partner did support the decision, we decided together.

You make it sound like adoption is a nice easy solution. I don't think it is. I wasn't prepared to risk the mental issues that would come with that and I wasn't prepared to have to deal with the stigma of being a woman who "gave away" her baby and the ensuing judgement which I would have faced.

OldNotWIse · 06-09-2012 02:58PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Its not the duty of pregnant women to provide babies for childless couples.

Having an abortion does not mean a woman is going to make a bad mother in the future or is a bad mother to her existing children.

That's a bit OTT. It's not like childless couples are going around impregnating unsuspecting women against their wishes. But if women want to be allowed to treat their unborn essentially, as something to be discarded, then does it not make sense for someone to argue, "well, hang on, if you dont want it can I have it?".

I met a homeless guy a while ago who told me he had seen a well known cafe/snaack bar throwing out food at the end of the day (perfectly good sandwiches etc) and he asked if he could have one bc he was starving and they threw them in the bin in front of him.

Cue onslaught of "gestating a baby is not like making a sandwich" but I'm just showing another (less extreme) example of the "I dont want it but I dont want anyone else to have it" mentality (actually I'm pretty sure I had an ex like that lol)

Sponge25 · 06-09-2012 02:58PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Its not the duty of pregnant women to provide babies for childless couples.

Having an abortion does not mean a woman is going to make a bad mother in the future or is a bad mother to her existing children.

It's a mothers duty to protect a child, regardless of circumstance. Nature has provided the mother with that role and arguing with nature is an uphill battle!

Wouldn't you agree?

eviltwin: I'm not trying to put you down, honest, you're probably a good person it just angers me and I can't help it.

Would you consider abortion again? If so, I consider you a really bad person!

Mickeroo · 06-09-2012 02:58PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I think Sponge is being deliberately inflammatory and troll-like, but if he decides that he is not comfortable being in someone's company that's his choice. I found out that a girl I used to work with had one and I distanced myself from her too. I didn't tell anyone, or shout "baby killer" or any of the other stereotypical responses, she didnt even know I knew, but for me, being around her was a reminder of how uncomfortable I am with the whole situation and I felt a little...queasy or something, I dont know. Perhaps it was judgement. But it is still my perogative to distance myself from someone who I do not like, and who reminds me of something that is, IMO, so wrong with the world.

Did you dislike her before you found out? Do you know her reasons for having it? True it's your perogative and fair play for not making a song and dance about it but that doesn't make it any less judgemental really.

Millicent · 06-09-2012 02:59PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I think Sponge is being deliberately inflammatory and troll-like, but if he decides that he is not comfortable being in someone's company that's his choice. I found out that a girl I used to work with had one and I distanced myself from her too. I didn't tell anyone, or shout "baby killer" or any of the other stereotypical responses, she didnt even know I knew, but for me, being around her was a reminder of how uncomfortable I am with the whole situation and I felt a little...queasy or something, I dont know. Perhaps it was judgement. But it is still my perogative to distance myself from someone who I do not like, and who reminds me of something that is, IMO, so wrong with the world.

I'm prefacing this by saying I'm not attacking you here -- I'm genuinely interested. Did you get on with the girl before or was she just a so-so acquaintance? Had you any pity or empathy for her feeling she had to make that decision, even if it is one you feel is morally wrong?

I respect you for distancing yourself and not being outwardly aggressive to her, btw. I think that was very classy of you and how people on either side of the coin should treat each other, without the aggression that seems to go along with the discussion all too often.

Sponge25 · 06-09-2012 02:59PM

eviltwin wrote: »

My partner did support the decision, we decided together.

You make it sound like adoption is a nice easy solution. I don't think it is. I wasn't prepared to risk the mental issues that would come with that and I wasn't prepared to have to deal with the stigma of being a woman who "gave away" her baby and the ensuing judgement which I would have faced.

But the stigma of abortion you were prepared too face?

LeeHoffmann · 06-09-2012 03:00PM

We are one of the very few mammals who have such a disregard for our offspring. Rats are better mothers than some woman!

I actually think that having a child is one of the most selfish things a person/2 people can do. So the whole ´give them a chance at life´ doesn´t seem to me like some noble selfless thing to do.

If your partner didn't want you to have an abortion would you have? If my gf had an abortion I would be heartbroken for the rest of my life!

If your partner wanted to have an abortion and you guilted her into having one, she´d probably be heartbroken for the rest of her life too. If the poster´s partner insisted that she carry an unplanned pregnancy to term and then walked out on her and the baby, I´m sure she´d be heartbroken too. What exactly is the point you´re making?...Does it have anything to do with the ´some women are worse than rats´ thing?

Millicent · 06-09-2012 03:00PM

eviltwin wrote: »

My partner did support the decision, we decided together.

You make it sound like adoption is a nice easy solution. I don't think it is. I wasn't prepared to risk the mental issues that would come with that and I wasn't prepared to have to deal with the stigma of being a woman who "gave away" her baby and the ensuing judgement which I would have faced.

Not to mention that if you were married (I don't know if you were at the time), you simply wouldn't have had the option.

OldNotWIse · 06-09-2012 03:00PM

eviltwin wrote: »

My partner did support the decision, we decided together.

You make it sound like adoption is a nice easy solution. I don't think it is. I wasn't prepared to risk the mental issues that would come with that and I wasn't prepared to have to deal with the stigma of being a woman who "gave away" her baby and the ensuing judgement which I would have faced.

I'm glad my adopted brother's mother choose to endure the "stigma" of giving her baby away (to my wonderful parents!!!) than killing him in-utero.

eviltwin · 06-09-2012 03:01PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

That's a bit OTT. It's not like childless couples are going around impregnating unsuspecting women against their wishes. But if women want to be allowed to treat their unborn essentially, as something to be discarded, then does it not make sense for someone to argue, "well, hang on, if you dont want it can I have it?".

I met a homeless guy a while ago who told me he had seen a well known cafe/snaack bar throwing out food at the end of the day (perfectly good sandwiches etc) and he asked if he could have one bc he was starving and they threw them in the bin in front of him.

Cue onslaught of "gestating a baby is not like making a sandwich" but I'm just showing another (less extreme) example of the "I dont want it but I dont want anyone else to have it" mentality (actually I'm pretty sure I had an ex like that lol)

I have every sympathy for people having problems having babies but I can't make huge life decisions based on other people and what they are going through.

Abortion

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