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  • #32
    Muir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 948 ✭✭✭Muir


    token101 wrote: »
    I hate this stupid argument that people make about parents 'not being able to afford college if we introduce fees'. We already have fees FFS. In Ireland you have to pay in or around 2000 in two installments during each year if you aren't entitled to grants. Even if you are eligible, you still have to pay until it's assessed, which is usually the following March because most VECs are so understaffed and badly run. In the UK you pay nothing until you leave university altogether and get a job paying over X amount every year. I graduated in 2009 in the UK and have yet to give 1 cent to my university, and I have done nothing illegal, I just haven't earned over the threshold set for repayment. Why should countries have free third level education? Why should the guy who sweeps the road or collects the bins or does any other lower paid job not requiring a degree have to pay for someone else to go study when they can't have or just don't want the opportunity? If you want something, you should pay for it. The levels that are paid for 3rd level are a different matter entirely, they are a f*cking joke.

    But how will people afford fees if the government don't put in a loan or taxation system for students? It's not people saying they aren't willing, they're saying it can't be afforded because there is no system like that in place in Ireland. Also, no point asking why should countries have free fees for education, we don't have free fees, we have some of he highest in Europe.

    I hate the argument about other people using their tax to pay my fees. I will be paying that tax back when I get a job. My parents and siblings who didn't go to college have paid tax which I'm sure they would be delighted helped me go to college. People seem to forget that the families of the people going to college usually pay tax too, as will most of the people when they graduate.


  • #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Muir wrote: »
    But we don't have a loan system where you pay it back after. You get a loan, you need someone else to guarantee it, and you start paying back straight away. A job is a wonderful idea except for the whole lack of them at the moment.
    Frankly I don't know anyone who came to college just to move to a city they fancied.

    Many people drop out in first year, especially those who are that bit younger (maybe 17) and aren't actually ready for it yet. That would happen regardless. I also think people who get the grant or who have parents who really struggle to put them through college appreciate it and work quite hard, in my experience anyway.

    you obviously dont know too many kids going to college.
    where the college is located is a MAJOR factor in where they go.
    it was when i went to college and it is now.
    its like, oh i fancy doing arts, languages, someother crap, where is it?
    oh, well i wanna go to galway so ill just apply for something in galway.
    thats the truth, thats the way it is.


  • #34
    JuliusCaesar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,886 ✭✭✭JuliusCaesar


    Don't have TWINS. Above all else, for heaven's sake, don't have TRIPLETS!!


  • #35
    Butterface
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 731 ✭✭✭Butterface


    Muir wrote: »
    But how will people afford fees if the government don't put in a loan or taxation system for students? It's not people saying they aren't willing, they're saying it can't be afforded because there is no system like that in place in Ireland. Also, no point asking why should countries have free fees for education, we don't have free fees, we have some of he highest in Europe.

    I hate the argument about other people using their tax to pay my fees. I will be paying that tax back when I get a job. My parents and siblings who didn't go to college have paid tax which I'm sure they would be delighted helped me go to college. People seem to forget that the families of the people going to college usually pay tax too, as will most of the people when they graduate.

    There should be some sort of loan system in place, although this would inevitably push up public spending to start with. Or a graduate tax should be imposed on people who have had the benefit of third level education in this country. A tax which wouldn't have to encumber those who have chosen not to undertake a degree.


  • #36
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    token101 wrote: »
    Why should the guy who sweeps the road or collects the bins or does any other lower paid job not requiring a degree have to pay for someone else to go study
    Why should I pay for other people to get their viagra on the medical card paid for by my tax money?
    Why should I pay to subsidise infrastructure in rural Ireland when I've chosen to live in a city?
    Why should I pay for rural airport/transport subventions when I live in a city and don't avail of them?
    Why should I pay for extra resources to be allocated to disadvantaged schools when I've never attended one and have no need of one?

    It's silly to say "I don't avail of a government service, therefore why should I pay for it" because as a society we have agreed to pay a set rate of tax no matter how many government services you use and that we will benefit as a whole by doing that. In this case, providing a high-quality education at a relatively low cost provides many benefits to society like increased investment, increased tax-take due to having more white collar jobs (Taxpayer with a degree pays on average 60% more in tax than one without) and it allows for greater social mobility from lower classes to higher classes.

    I always find it funny that there's some who would rather cut the ~€1.5 billion a year the government spends on covering Third Level tuition fees which provides a massive return on investment, rather than the ~€20 billion per year we spend on Social Welfare which is essential dead money.


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  • #37
    Muir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 948 ✭✭✭Muir


    bubblypop wrote: »
    you obviously dont know too many kids going to college.
    where the college is located is a MAJOR factor in where they go.
    it was when i went to college and it is now.
    its like, oh i fancy doing arts, languages, someother crap, where is it?
    oh, well i wanna go to galway so ill just apply for something in galway.
    thats the truth, thats the way it is.

    Considering I'm a student I actually know loads of people going to college. Anyone I know picked the subject they liked, found out which colleges offered the subject, which ones had a good reputation for the subject etc. and chose based on that. Location can be a big influencing factor if you want to stay at home but people don't usually pick a city, they pick a course and a college that offers it, has a good reputation for it etc. Never, ever heard of anyone say, 'oh I wanna move to Galway, I'll just fill out my CAO with random Galway courses'.


  • #38
    Muir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 948 ✭✭✭Muir


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    Why should I pay for other people to get their viagra on the medical card paid for by my tax money?
    Why should I pay to subsidise infrastructure in rural Ireland when I've chosen to live in a city?
    Why should I pay for rural airport/transport subventions when I live in a city and don't avail of them?
    Why should I pay for extra resources to be allocated to disadvantaged schools when I've never attended one and have no need of one?

    It's silly to say "I don't avail of a government service, therefore why should I pay for it" because as a society we have agreed to pay a set rate of tax no matter how many government services you use and that we will benefit as a whole by doing that. In this case, providing a high-quality education at a relatively low cost provides many benefits to society like increased investment, increased tax-take due to having more white collar jobs (Taxpayer with a degree pays on average 60% more in tax than one without) and it allows for greater social mobility from lower classes to higher classes.

    I always find it funny that there's some who would rather cut the ~€1.5 billion a year the government spends on covering Third Level tuition fees which provides a massive return on investment, rather than the ~€20 billion per year we spend on Social Welfare which is essential dead money.

    Completely agree with this. Also, if people can't afford to go to college and there are no jobs, they will most likely end up on the Social Welfare, which in the long run will cost the state more.


  • #39
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,297 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    bubblypop wrote: »
    seriously, you want to go to college, you pay for it. whats wrong with that?

    lots of other countries have a student loan thingy going on.
    if you want to attend a college, pay for it, get a loan or a part time job, pay your reg fees, which really are not that extortionate, then pay it back when you are finished and start work.

    i bet it would stop A LOT of drop outs in the first year.
    if these students had to pay for themselves they would
    a. decide on a course they were atually interested in, instead of one in a college based in a city they fancied living in!!
    b. actually try to do a bit of work at the course they were in.

    and i was a student, a couple of times. seen it, know how it goes.
    you wanna go, you pay for it yourself, thats fair enough i reckon.
    So tell us when and where did you go to college and how did you fund it?


  • #40
    Muir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 948 ✭✭✭Muir


    Butterface wrote: »
    There should be some sort of loan system in place, although this would inevitably push up public spending to start with. Or a graduate tax should be imposed on people who have had the benefit of third level education in this country. A tax which wouldn't have to encumber those who have chosen not to undertake a degree.

    If they kept fees as are, and people paid say 1000-2000 a year as is currently, and then also had a taxation or loan system for afterwards then it wouldn't greatly increase public spending to start with. Things would be the same for now but they would get more money back in 3-4 years. But the government want the money now so fees go up instead and I don't believe any sort of loan or taxation system is even being discussed.


  • #41
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    Why do you keep saying this when you've been proven so wrong before?
    You said the same thing last november and I called you out on it and yet here you are again.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75421191&postcount=70
    Originally Posted by Anita Blow
    Ireland has the 2nd highest tuition fees in Europe.

    Other European countries which don't charge tuition fees:
    Austria
    Finland
    Czech Republic
    Denmark
    Greece
    Hungary
    Iceland
    Luxembourg
    Norway
    Slovenia
    Sweden

    The link you provided actually disproves your own argument, because according to the website, Ireland only charges tuition fees to some students who don't meet the specific requirements.

    According to a recent OECD report, Ireland ranks among the top countries in the world for having low or negligible levels of tuition fees.

    And in return for paying virtually no fees, our students benefit from some of the longest teaching / classroom hours of the OECD countries.

    You can read about it here: http://www.oecd.org/education/highereducationandadultlearning/48631550.pdf

    I'm not sure where you got the information that Ireland has the 2nd highest tuition fees in Europe, but as far as I can see, it doesn't. Perhaps you meant registration fees? And if you did, maybe you could provide a link?


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  • #42
    Musefan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Musefan


    A very nice man called J.P McManus paid for my third level primary degree (All Ireland Scholarship). Made it possible for me to go to college which was great. Starting my Masters next week. If only there were more like him. I feel so lucky so I put my heart and soul into my education.


  • #43
    Muir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 948 ✭✭✭Muir


    Musefan wrote: »
    A very nice man called J.P McManus paid for my third level primary degree (All Ireland Scholarship). Made it possible for me to go to college which was great. Starting my Masters next week. If only there were more like him. I feel so lucky so I put my heart and soul into my education.

    Similar to myself, I managed to get some help for some of my course from an external source who heard about my difficulty getting fees paid. I would genuinely love to have the money to do this for other people when I start working.


  • #44
    Musefan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Musefan


    Muir wrote: »
    Similar to myself, I managed to get some help for some of my course from an external source who heard about my difficulty getting fees paid. I would genuinely love to have the money to do this for other people when I start working.

    Me too. It would be the first thing I would do if I won the lottery. Even if I could sponsor one person it would be great but I suppose my priority would probably be my own kids!


  • #45
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    So tell us when and where did you go to college and how did you fund it?

    i went to college in DIT, i worked part time, late night thurs and friday and all day sat.
    i paid my own way.

    i wanted to go to dublin, thats why i went there, i had friends who wanted to live in galway or limerick, thats why they chose there!!


  • #46
    Butterface
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 731 ✭✭✭Butterface


    Muir wrote: »
    If they kept fees as are, and people paid say 1000-2000 a year as is currently, and then also had a taxation or loan system for afterwards then it wouldn't greatly increase public spending to start with. Things would be the same for now but they would get more money back in 3-4 years. But the government want the money now so fees go up instead and I don't believe any sort of loan or taxation system is even being discussed.

    [HTML]http://educatetogethertramore.com/content/pdf/fg-policy.pdf[/HTML]Skip to page 5 about Third Level education. It was in Fine Gael's election manifesto. It was also brought up in last December's budget, think they set up a think tank to examine different possibilities/alternatives to the current system.


  • #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Muir wrote: »
    Considering I'm a student I actually know loads of people going to college. Anyone I know picked the subject they liked, found out which colleges offered the subject, which ones had a good reputation for the subject etc. and chose based on that. Location can be a big influencing factor if you want to stay at home but people don't usually pick a city, they pick a course and a college that offers it, has a good reputation for it etc. Never, ever heard of anyone say, 'oh I wanna move to Galway, I'll just fill out my CAO with random Galway courses'.

    b****x, all students think about where they will be in college.

    true when i was a student, true now when my best friends daughter and all her friends are going to college.


  • #48
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,297 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    bubblypop wrote: »
    i went to college in DIT, i worked part time, late night thurs and friday and all day sat.
    i paid my own way.

    i wanted to go to dublin, thats why i went there, i had friends who wanted to live in galway or limerick, thats why they chose there!!
    Was that during the celtic tiger years?


  • #49
    Butterface
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 731 ✭✭✭Butterface


    bubblypop wrote: »
    b****x, all students think about where they will be in college.

    true when i was a student, true now when my best friends daughter and all her friends are going to college.

    Of course the location of where you're going to spend 3/4 years studying factors in which universities students choose.

    In many cases, it's the deciding factor. Especially since many universities in Ireland offer similar degrees, especially in Arts subjects.


  • #50
    Muir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 948 ✭✭✭Muir


    bubblypop wrote: »
    i went to college in DIT, i worked part time, late night thurs and friday and all day sat.
    i paid my own way.

    i wanted to go to dublin, thats why i went there, i had friends who wanted to live in galway or limerick, thats why they chose there!!

    So you give out about people picking a college based on the city it's in because that's what you chose to do? People are picking courses based on what they like and based on job prospects for themselves afterwards. You're the first person I've ever heard of deciding on college because of the city it's in.

    When did you go to college? It's great you worked but for most people it's not an option now because there are so few jobs, and jobs that were entry level before now demand 2-3 years experience because they have so many applicants they can afford to make these demands. An 18 year old going to college wont have that experience.


  • #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I started college first in 2004 - back then, fees were around €750, up until 2006 at least, when I dropped out. When I returned to do a new course in 2007, they had increased to €900. So in three years, they only increased by €150. Then, in either 2008 or 2009, they increased to €1500. Effectively doubling from previous years.

    Genuinely think introducing full fees is the wrong thing to do; if anything it will massively hamper the education system in this country, as most will not be able to afford it. As for student loans, it's so easy to say that now, where a person has finished college and won't have to face it, but what of those that do, that will have to finish college crippled by loans for the majority of their lives?


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  • #52
    Muir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 948 ✭✭✭Muir


    Butterface wrote: »
    [HTML]http://educatetogethertramore.com/content/pdf/fg-policy.pdf[/HTML]Skip to page 5 about Third Level education. It was in Fine Gael's election manifesto. It was also brought up in last December's budget, think they set up a think tank to examine different possibilities/alternatives to the current system.

    I know they were talking about it, it was one of the reasons I liked them before the election. But it seems to have gone out the window in favour of the €250 a year increase which gets them more money more quickly. That's been in the papers the past few days but I've heard nothing about a taxation or loan system in a long time.


  • #53
    Butterface
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 731 ✭✭✭Butterface


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I started college first in 2004 - back then, fees were around €750, up until 2006 at least, when I dropped out. When I returned to do a new course in 2007, they had increased to €900. So in three years, they only increased by €150. Then, in either 2008 or 2009, they increased to €1500. Effectively doubling from previous years.

    Genuinely think introducing full fees is the wrong thing to do; if anything it will massively hamper the education system in this country, as most will not be able to afford it. As for student loans, it's so easy to say that now, where a person has finished college and won't have to face it, but what of those that do, that will have to finish college crippled by loans for the majority of their lives?

    We're talking about a student loans system that's backed by the government. The government are already paying for your education here, and then you're being saddled with a registration or contribution fee up front. If there was a loan system in place similar to the one in the UK, then you wouldn't be leaving university crippled with debt. You'd have debt for sure, but it wouldn't be as burdensome as trying to immediately pay off a bank loan.

    It's an income contingent loan, that's repaid through PAYE. Also, the conditions of my loan stipulate that the loan will be written off 25 years after it has become eligable to be repaid.


  • #54
    Muir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 948 ✭✭✭Muir


    bubblypop wrote: »
    b****x, all students think about where they will be in college.

    true when i was a student, true now when my best friends daughter and all her friends are going to college.

    I didn't say they don't think about it, but I don't know anyone who chose based on it. They pick the course, then location might come into play. Who decides they want to go to a certain city and then just picks some random course on offer in that city? I picked my course and then picked what college I thought would be the best place to study it. I stayed in Dublin because it was convenient but if I had wanted to study something that they only offered in Cork I would have figured something out to get there. I personally have never heard of anyone choosing location over the course. If the course is offered in many places then location comes into consideration.


  • #55
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    The link you provided actually disproves your own argument, because according to the website, Ireland only charges tuition fees to some students who don't meet the specific requirements.
    I'm talking about the Student Contribution.
    IE- How much it costs an EU citizen to attend college here versus how much it costs to attend college in another EU country.
    I don't see how my own link contradicts what I said?
    starbelgrade wrote: »
    According to a recent OECD report, Ireland ranks among the top countries in the world for having low or negligible levels of tuition fees.
    Your OECD report refers to actual tuition fees, not the student contribution. It's my fault for using the phrase 'tuition fees' in the first place when I was actually referring to the cost borne by the student, not the government, in each country. (IE- The Student Contribution)
    The OECD report shows EU countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark Czech Republic as having 0 tuition fees, and makes specific note to include Ireland with them because, in it's own words, "Ireland could also be included in this category as tuition fees charged by public institutions (for full-time undergraduate students from the European Union) are paid directly by the government". However we have the Student Contribution which is higher than anything a student would have to pay upfront for their college education in those countries and would actually put us above Netherlands in that Table.

    Some of the countries I listed the costs that the student pays:
    Austria- No tuition or reg fees. Pay €16 per term to the Student's Union (Interestingly they had fees of €366 per term until 2008 when they abolished them)
    Netherlands- Tuition fees of €1835 and that is all you have to pay.
    Denmark- Completely free, and on top of that all students can even receive financial aid, with the amount they get varying from the government depending on their situation.
    Sweden- No Tuition or other fees
    Norway- No tuition fees. Student contribution to their Student's Union is the only fee they pay which is €30-70 per term.
    France- €150-€700


  • #56
    pennypocket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭pennypocket


    Confab wrote: »
    Students should have to pay to go to college like in every other civilised country. Develop a loan system. Free education was a boom thing.

    Free third level education in Ireland was not a 'boom thing'. It was introduced in 1996 during Niamh Bhreathnach's ministry, and was arguably the most revolutionary advancement in Irish education since Donagh O'Malley's introduction of free second level in 1967. Indeed, free secondary education was one of the most important advancements in twentieth century Irish history, and brought us to unprecedented levels of prosperity (pre-property-boom bank ****e after 2002)by the late 1990s. I see education as a basic right that should not be monetised, and a public good that in the long run benefits society as a whole.


  • #57
    pennypocket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 312 ✭✭pennypocket


    Butterface wrote: »
    We're talking about a student loans system that's backed by the government. The government are already paying for your education here, and then you're being saddled with a registration or contribution fee up front. If there was a loan system in place similar to the one in the UK, then you wouldn't be leaving university crippled with debt. You'd have debt for sure, but it wouldn't be as burdensome as trying to immediately pay off a bank loan.

    It's an income contingent loan, that's repaid through PAYE. Also, the conditions of my loan stipulate that the loan will be written off 25 years after it has become eligable to be repaid.

    Yeah. Repeat your pearls of wisdom to students in America who are facing a debt crisis worse than the sub-prime bubble of late 2008 to present. http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2012/05/15/student-loan-crisis-new-york-times-catching-up-with-my-guest-posters/
    There is an eerie prescient with the introduction of mortgages for the masses in Ireland in the 1960s.


  • #58
    Ficheall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,067 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    1ZRed wrote: »
    What annoys me though is with all the cuts to education, and the government pushing competitiveness and innovation, how will they extract the absolute best out of young people if they harshen barriers such as these in their way?

    Ireland isn't known for having much talent but we do have our intelligence and and a heavy emphasis on education so why be so short sighted, hurt our greatest export and screw ourselves long term?
    This particular argument always irritates me. The Irish student populace aren't a particularly intelligent bunch, despite the grand delusion.
    Muir wrote: »
    I will be paying that tax back when I get a job.
    Nice of you, except that you keep harping on about the fact that there are no jobs.


  • #59
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,309 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Muir wrote: »
    No, Crumlin does PLC courses so they are far cheaper than Universities and ITs.

    the fee is currently 2250 and set to rise by 250 a year until it reaches 3000.

    Thanks Muir :)(I'm just not a college guy. forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject :P )

    Its wrong tho isnt it. I mean how are we meant to create tomorrows work force if prices are sky-rocketing.


  • #60
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    It's interesting to note that it's almost exclusively those who've finished college who support the idea of a graduate tax or student loan. I wonder would they be so enthusiastic for the idea if it was applied retrospectively?

    The free fees initiative has been for the most part a fairly sound investment. A nation of educated people can do so much more.


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  • #61
    Ficheall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,067 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    A nation of educated people can do so much more.
    It depends what you mean by educated, I suppose. I would place very little value on most of the degrees handed out by Irish colleges.


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