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Abortion

12357…38

Comments

  • #122
    Feeona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭Feeona


    tomtherobot wrote: »
    I'm sorry if i've offended any holy joe's or nazi fembots. Please let us hear what u got to say.....

    So yes or no, you think other peoples' opinions are valid?


  • #123
    Dangerous Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭Dangerous Man


    cassi wrote: »
    The thread title is a load I crap. No one Is saying that abortion is ok! But thankfully many people are past the age old caveman mindset that ALL women that have abortions are sluts that are looking for a way out.

    There are a barrel load of reasons that women choose abortion. Not all of them the easy way out as the op seems believe.

    And equating pro choice to thinking its okay to kiddy fiddle is just embarrassing as a counter argument. Perhaps if pro lifers could actually make debates without resorting to pettiness or god or killing then these debates may actually go somewhere!!

    I haven't mentioned God once. I haven't mentioned killing once. I haven't been petty once. Read the thread.


  • #124
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    LizT wrote: »
    Why not? What qualifies you to say what's a legitimate basis for any woman to get an abortion?
    Presumably because he believes that there is more than one person to consider in an abortion. One of the people happens not to be able to speak yet so it falls to the state to speak for them.
    It's often said the extreme cases make for bad laws. I don't think anyone can legitimately argue against abortion for cases of rape or danger to the woman's life. It's really the on demand abortions that are the stumbling block.
    An unwanted pregnancy is a traumatic and horrendous ordeal but the natural conclusion of that is not on demand abortion.
    Now having said that, i'm of the opinion that you cannot force a woman to carry a child to term and so reluctantly abortion services need to be made available. Claiming that a human life is not being ended or calling it pro choice does not lessen the horror of it for me.


  • #125
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    tomtherobot wrote: »
    Again, i chose not to abuse kids, but if somebody else wants to fine. We call all see that for all intents and purposes this stance would be pro-pedophilia.

    I just want to reiterate and clarify that i would not consider the decision to chose a child most likely to die over a mother most likely to live as abortion. This is a tough medical decision and shouldn't be hijacked by the abortion as convenience brigade.

    Again, that analogy shows that you don't understand the issue. It is unrelated and not even slightly comparable.
    Read this article, and don't just rule it out because its on a youth defence website.
    You'd be doing yourself a favour by finding a non-Youth Defence article on the subject. You claim pro-choice people are biased and link to a site from a group that openly lie and cheat to trick people into agreeing with them, and as such you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who'd be able to view anything they report without severe scepticism.


  • #126
    Irishchick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭Irishchick


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    I don't think anyone can legitimately argue against abortion for cases of rape or danger to the woman's life.


    Im going to paste my reply from the other page again because people really do not know the facts

    Abortion is never medically necessary and to say it is is just a down right lie!

    No medical illness is cured by abortion.

    If a pregnant woman becomes pregnant the doctor will treat the mother and do his/her best to save the unborn child. Sometimes they are successful, and sometimes they are not. Then procedure's such as a D&C need to performed to remove the dead unborn child.

    This is widely performed in this country and is not an abortion.

    Read this article, and don't just rule it out because its on a youth defence website. Its a very interesting article.

    http://www.youthdefence.ie/latest-ne...y-to-save-mom/

    So that's cancer ruled out.

    As for pre-eclampsia and ectopic pregnancies again the doctors will do all they can to save both but will intervene if the mother's life is in danger.

    Again this is a medical treatment, not an abortion. Pro choice groups dont mention this though as it destroys their whole campaign as they know alot of women don't realise these facts.

    Professor emeritus (amoug other OB GYN's) have been quoted saying that there is no risk to the mother that can be avoided by abortion.


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  • #127
    tomtherobot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 188 ✭✭tomtherobot


    eviltwin wrote: »
    One day Tom you might find yourself in a situation where a woman you impregnate decides to abort your baby. You might not want that to happen but if it does you might be glad of post abortion counselling.

    Plenty of women who have abortions do so under pressure from family, partners or society. Sometimes they end up regretting it and once its happened no amount of making her feel bad is going to change that. Why not just allow those people who want it to have it.

    That's fine but it's not really a pro-abortion debate. I can absolutely see why you would need counseling if you felt an abortion was pressured on you or your partner but if you freely made the decision how can you demand state-subsidized counseling?

    I've seen people torn apart because they later acknowledge they did the wrong thing in having an abortion or because their partner had one without telling them or giving them any choice in the matter. Of course these people's should have counseling but that's coming with an acknowledgement of the harm of abortion.


  • #128
    Irishchick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭Irishchick


    humanji wrote: »
    link to a site from a group that openly lie and cheat to trick people into agreeing with them, and as such you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who'd be able to view anything they report without severe scepticism.

    Can you provide proof of where they have lied?

    Nothing on that page is a lie. It's the complete truth that any doctor will treat a woman with cancer or an ectopic pregnancy and try to save the child. Every OB GYN will tell you that this is not abortion and to suggest so is ridiculous.

    In my opinion a lot of women are now wanting to vote for abortion as they have been scared into believing a doctor will not treat them if they become pregnant and then get cancer or suffer an ectopic pregnancy which is just wrong.


  • #129
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    tomtherobot wrote: »
    That's fine but it's not really a pro-abortion debate. I can absolutely see why you would need counseling if you felt an abortion was pressured on you or your partner but if you freely made the decision how can you demand state-subsidized counseling?

    I've seen people torn apart because they later acknowledge they did the wrong thing in having an abortion or because their partner had one without telling them or giving them any choice in the matter. Of course these people's should have counseling but that's coming with an acknowledgement of the harm of abortion.

    But Tom if you take it away you are taking it away for all. So those women you claim to feel sorry for will be denied it just as much as the ones you don't like.

    So how do you filter out who gets counselling vs who doesn't? Counsellors don't care about the circumstances of a person coming to their door, they just want to help so don't expect them to decide for you.

    By the way I work as a counsellor for people in violent relationships, I suppose seeing as how they "choose" to get involved with violent partners I should just shut up shop and not offer my services anymore.


  • #130
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    eviltwin wrote: »
    One of the only face to face support group for women and men post abortion was set up by a pro-life campaigner, some of the couselling is offered by pro-life groups.

    Yes but that mostly consists of admitting you've done an evil thing and praying for forgiveness.


  • #131
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Irishchick wrote: »
    Can you provide proof of where they have lied?

    Nothing on that page is a lie. It's the complete truth that any doctor will treat a woman with cancer or an ectopic pregnancy and try to save the child. Every OB GYN will tell you that this is not abortion and to suggest so is ridiculous.

    In my opinion a lot of women are now wanting to vote for abortion as they have been scared into believing a doctor will not treat them if they become pregnant and then get cancer or suffer an ectopic pregnancy which is just wrong.
    You genuinely believe Youth Defence have never lied? Really? Have you not seen the posters? Have you not witnessed their tactics on the streets, trying to guilt people into follow their wishes? Here's one example for you then: http://choiceindying.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/abortion-ad.jpg


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  • #132
    books4sale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭books4sale


    I can't stand pro-lifers, bunch of fanatical religious nutjobs.

    The same ones who believe in moving statues, apparitions and a sky man that supposedly controls all our lives. They are dangerous and backward thinking group of Jesus freaks. Ridiculous rubbish in the 21st Century!

    There is no such thing as a giant sky man who is going to send us all to a firey pit, grow up everyone!

    Bring on abortion!


  • #133
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Yes but that mostly consists of admitting you've done an evil thing and praying for forgiveness.

    Not all of them Sharrow, I go to one most months and I'm the only pro-choice woman there. No one has ever made me feel bad. I've never felt anything but compassion and support and friendship.


  • #134
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Someone linking to an article on the Youth Defence website and saying they don't lie = Yucks for the rest of us! :pac:


  • #135
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    books4sale wrote: »
    I can't stand pro-lifers, bunch of fanatical religious nutjobs.

    The same ones who believe in moving statues, apparitions and a sky man that supposedly controls all our lives. They are dangerous and backward thinking group of Jesus freaks. Ridiculous rubbish in the 21st Century!

    There is no such thing as a giant sky man who is going to send us all to a firey pit, grow up everyone!

    Bring on abortion!
    And here we have the other side of the coin...


  • #136
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Irishchick wrote: »
    Abortion is never medically necessary and to say it is is just a down right lie!

    No medical illness is cured by abortion.

    The ending of ectopic pregnancies is abortion, it is an abortion which is the treatment for a medical condition.
    Irishchick wrote: »
    Read this article, and don't just rule it out because its on a youth defence website. Its a very interesting article.

    No thanks.


  • #137
    Actor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 348 ✭✭Actor


    books4sale wrote: »
    I can't stand pro-lifers, bunch of fanatical religious nutjobs.

    The same ones who believe in moving statues, apparitions and a sky man that supposedly controls all our lives. They are dangerous and backward thinking group of people. Ridiculous rubbish in the 21st Century!

    There is no such thing as a giant sky man who is going to send us all to a firey pit, grow up everyone!

    Bring on abortion!

    Oh the irony. Your depth of knowledge on the subject of abortion is truly breathtaking. So much so, you have to resort to demonising pro-lifers.


  • #138
    Irishchick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭Irishchick


    humanji wrote: »
    You genuinely believe Youth Defence have never lied? Really? Have you not seen the posters? Have you not witnessed their tactics on the streets, trying to guilt people into follow their wishes? Here's one example for you then: http://choiceindying.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/abortion-ad.jpg

    There is nothing on that billboard that can be described as a lie. You may not like it or agree with it but it certainly can't be defined as lying.


  • #139
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    tomtherobot wrote: »
    But what is it if it's not contraception? All's i'm hearing is it's complicated or it's a difficult choice, explain?

    If it's not killing and it's not contraception what is it? And please don't bring in these extreme medical emergencies that's very unfair on those people.

    You honestly have not taken the time to consider and put yourselves in the shoes of a woman who finds out she is pregnant and had to then not continue the pregnancy despite wanting kids but does so as it's not right for her in her life at that time.


  • #140
    Actor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 348 ✭✭Actor


    Sharrow wrote: »
    The ending of ectopic pregnancies is abortion, it is an abortion which is the treatment for a medical condition.

    You forgot about the intent part. The intent with ectopic pregnancies in Ireland is to save both lives if possible. The intent of "abortion" is to kill unborn life for the benefit of the mother's individual circumstances.


  • #141
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Irishchick wrote: »
    There is nothing on that billboard that can be described as a lie. You may not like it or agree with it but it certainly can't be defined as lying.

    Yeah, the last line is a provable lie. And the poster itself is not an appeal to logic. It's designed to emotionally manipulate the vulnerable to do their bidding. It's propaganda and it's most obvious.


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  • #142
    Irishchick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭Irishchick


    Sharrow wrote: »
    The ending of ectopic pregnancies is abortion, it is an abortion which is the treatment for a medical condition.


    No it isn't. Go pick up a medical text book. The treatment for ectopic pregnancy is not considered an abortion. It never was. That's why its performed in this country.

    The next time you visit your GP/GYN ask him or her. I guarantee they will agree with me.


  • #143
    Actor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 348 ✭✭Actor


    humanji wrote: »
    Yeah, the last line is a provable lie. And the poster itself is not an appeal to logic. It's designed to emotionally manipulate the vulnerable to do their bidding. It's propaganda and it's most obvious.

    Of course pro-choicers never engage in propaganda and the demonisation of religous...


  • #144
    books4sale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭books4sale


    tomtherobot wrote: »
    Again, i chose not to abuse kids, but if somebody else wants to fine. We call all see that for all intents and purposes this stance would be pro-pedophilia.
    .

    That's sick man!

    That's why this country is where it is because weak people stand by, do nothing and meekly say '....its fine'.

    It's not bloody fine, stand up and defeat this apathy.


  • #145
    Irishchick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭Irishchick


    humanji wrote: »
    Yeah, the last line is a provable lie. .

    How is it a lie? Abortion does tear some lives apart. The poster doesn't say it tears every life apart. If it did then that would be a lie.

    Sorry just realised you meant the "always a better choice" part.

    That's not a lie either, it an opinion.

    Again you might not agree with it, but that doesn't make it a lie.


  • #146
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Actor wrote: »
    Of course pro-choicers never engage in propaganda and the demonisation of religous...
    Of course they do. But not to the level of Youth Defence. There's plenty of anti-abortion proponents who can make reasonable arguments and not base their arguments on emotional blackmail. These people are a hell of a lot more trustworthy than Youth Defence.


  • #147
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Irishchick wrote: »
    How is it a lie? Abortion does tear some lives apart. The poster doesn't say it tears every life apart. If it did then that would be a lie.
    The last line.


  • #148
    Actor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 348 ✭✭Actor


    humanji wrote: »
    Of course they do. But not to the level of Youth Defence. There's plenty of anti-abortion proponents who can make reasonable arguments and not base their arguments on emotional blackmail. These people are a hell of a lot more trustworthy than Youth Defence.

    Did you ever ask yourself why these posters are so effective? It's pushing certain buttons that appeals to any right-minded person with a conscience. It's common sense that abortion is wrong as abortion goes against our basic natural instincts.


  • #149
    Actor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 348 ✭✭Actor


    humanji wrote: »
    The last line.

    You'll have to explain yourself better than that. Make a reasoned argument for once.


  • #150
    Irishchick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭Irishchick


    humanji wrote: »
    The last line.

    yeah sorry just edited my last post.


    Sorry just realised you meant the "always a better choice" part.

    That's not a lie either, it an opinion.

    Again you might not agree with it, but that doesn't make it a lie.


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  • #151
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    So seeing there are a good few pro-life voices here lets get back to the OP's point.

    How many of the other pro-life posters think post abortion counselling should be done away with?


This discussion has been closed.
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