Army escorting prisoners

Terrontress · 19-08-2012 12:31PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I have to say I'm always slightly amused when I see the army escorts from the special criminal courts and the seriousness in which they are taken. I'm not having a cut at the Army as they are only doing what they are told but the question I would ask is where were the army when these guys were being arrested by Gardai for the crimes they committed. Its at that point that the threat to anyone is at its greatest from these criminals and their gangs. Chances are two uniform unarmed Gardai had to go to the inital call in a clapped out 04 Focus. Put on the bells and whistles for the Telly and impress the Joe public!

I would expect they were supported by the ERU or RSU. As to army involvement with prisoners. There are a number of reasons why the army would be better suited to protection details than armed Gardaí.

There may be reasons but it doesn't make it right! The Police should be allowed to uphold law and order in peacetime.

There may be reasons why the UK have introduced yellow pack pcsos, decent people who would like to become police officers, and why they are shipping police work out to G4S. Doesn't make it right.

I am sure there are many Gardai who would be happy to be trained to address the threats of criminal gangs but as it is, it looks like AGS is unable to fully uphold law and order without military assistance.

Sunnyisland · 19-08-2012 12:45PM

the culture of deference wrote: »

Why do prisoners need to be transferred to court. It is a complete waste of resources. 3 out of every 4 visits to court are for remand to a future date.

I can skype with family members instantly around the world.

I agree, Why cant the prisoner already being held in custody (as in this case) not be dealt with through video link ? It was always going to be a remand.

Pappa Charlie · 19-08-2012 01:05PM

MagicSean wrote: »

I would expect they were supported by the ERU or RSU. As to army involvement with prisoners. There are a number of reasons why the army would be better suited to protection details than armed Gardaí.

If its planned I'm sure they would but sometimes these guys are caught at incidents by unarmed gardai.

MagicSean · 19-08-2012 01:27PM

Terrontress wrote: »

There may be reasons but it doesn't make it right! The Police should be allowed to uphold law and order in peacetime.

There may be reasons why the UK have introduced yellow pack pcsos, decent people who would like to become police officers, and why they are shipping police work out to G4S. Doesn't make it right.

I am sure there are many Gardai who would be happy to be trained to address the threats of criminal gangs but as it is, it looks like AGS is unable to fully uphold law and order without military assistance.

It's not about training. It goes to the core of what the Gardaí are and what the army are and what their respective roles are in society.

WilcoOut · 19-08-2012 02:06PM

Terrontress wrote: »

it looks like AGS is unable to fully uphold law and order without military assistance.

the gouger is going to court

what more of a resounding answer to the question 'can AGS fully uphold the law?' can you get!?

l

r3nu4l · 19-08-2012 03:05PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I have to say I'm always slightly amused when I see the army escorts from the special criminal courts and the seriousness in which they are taken. I'm not having a cut at the Army as they are only doing what they are told but the question I would ask is where were the army when these guys were being arrested by Gardai for the crimes they committed. Its at that point that the threat to anyone is at its greatest from these criminals and their gangs. Chances are two uniform unarmed Gardai had to go to the inital call in a clapped out 04 Focus. Put on the bells and whistles for the Telly and impress the Joe public!

Its' pretty simple really. In the last few weeks we have seen a former Garda write about how poorly equipped Gardaí are. Clapped out patrol cars, sharing of patrol cars etc.

The options are:

Get the ERU to escort prisoners
Get the army to do it
Spend a lot of money upping the equipment level and training of gardaí

Get the ERU to escort prisoners
If I was a major criminal and I knew the ERU were going to be busy on escort duty I would be rubbing my hands at what I could get up to during that time. The public would be screaming blue murder that so many armed gardaí were escorting a prisoner to court while two or three post offices were being done over twenty miles or so away.

Get the army to do it
It frees up the resource of the ERU and other armed units so that they can get on with their day-to-dat duties.
However, it also gives the hardmen the big idea that they are so dangerous that the army is the only thing that can keep them in prison

Spend loads of money on training more armed gardaí, buying assault rifles and sub-machine guns and better cars while training the gardaí to drive those cars appropriately
In the current economic climate? Don't make me laugh. When you see a story about how there's only a couple of cars between a load of gardaí and most of those guards haven't even had the training required to allow them behind the wheel then you suddenly realise how much needs to be spent and the chances of that happening are zilch right now.

This is why the army do it. As for where were the army when an unarmed guard was arresting them, I don't think many guards would like the army backing them up , do you? That would really be saying that the gardaí can't do their job.

The army also escort CIT vans along with gardaí. We all know what happened when the army weren't escorting the van that Gerry McCabe was guarding. Does anyone really think the IRA would have attacked a van the army were escorting? I don't.

The fact is that these so-called hardmen wouldn't dream of attacking an army escort but they would take a chance at trying to free one of their own if it was only a small garda escort.

That's why the army are doing it. It's down to a massive lack of resources for the gardaí, the availability of the army and the fear factor it places on the so-called hardmen criminals. Look what happened years ago when armed gardaí were resourced to patrol the streets of Limerick. The cowards all scuttled back to their hidey-holes and didn't set foot outdoors. Attacking an unarmed garda who is likely not to have backup for about 10 minutes or so is easy pickings, attacking a garda who is likely to have a dozen armed garda by his side in under two minutes is a totally different story.

Until the garda have the proper resource, training and numbers to deal with high-profile escorts the army is the logical choice.

Hooch · 19-08-2012 05:41PM

The above I fully agree with.

I would add also that the Army are present in a capacity known as "Aid to the civil power" IE, the Army are there to protect and aid the Gardaí in their duties. Technically they are not there to stop the prisoner escaping, the Gardaí are. The Army (who are very competent at what they do and very well respected internationally by the way....) essence protect us.

With the mod hat on, posters beware we do not talk about the operational ability, capability or actual functions of the ERU, thanks

mcgarrett · 19-08-2012 08:39PM

realies wrote: »

I agree, Why cant the prisoner already being held in custody (as in this case) not be dealt with through video link ? It was always going to be a remand.

This is the post that finally gets down to the basic problem. The majority of these escorts are for remand hearings and bail applications. The legislation and facilities are in place for video link but it's not being used, why?

unichall · 19-08-2012 10:31PM

Terrontress wrote: »

I don't think it is fair to suggest the army do nothing.

To be clear i wasn't suggesting the army do nothing pence the '' '' i was merely adding this as the type of moronic comment that would/ could be made in highlighting my point, sorry if there was confusion

Eru · 19-08-2012 11:03PM

mcgarrett wrote: »

This is the post that finally gets down to the basic problem. The majority of these escorts are for remand hearings and bail applications. The legislation and facilities are in place for video link but it's not being used, why?

habeas corpus. Person has the right to address the court when its making decisions about his freedom.

Some things are more important than finance and a persons liberty is one of them.

and I hardly ever do escorts but its nice to be appreciated

Locust · 20-08-2012 12:41AM

Not to take away from what some have said but worth remembering when it comes to escorts and making the best of resources... - that the ERU are a hell of a lot more specialised in a range of other stuff - regarded as 'an elite unit' as opposed to regular army escorts going around. Could they be put to better use elsewhere? Or are a jeep full of squaddies in battlegear enough of a deterrant for a drive across town? I suppose it depends on whats going on that week. Just saying.

Witcher · 20-08-2012 12:47AM

Is there any real need to change the system as it stands? How many times has a prisoner escort or cash transport being carried out by the army been attacked? If it ain't broke etc.

Terrontress · 20-08-2012 09:29AM

This is a carbon copy of what the police in the UK are doing and have done.

People are justifying an external agency's involvement in policing because the Gardai are stretched. Should the answer to that not be to look for more policing?

In the UK Highways Agencies now patrol the motorway, councils look for traffic offences, police drivers are hired from recruitment agencies.

It's all fine though because police are too busy.

Then police numbers become fewer because they are not required for policing and those remaining are still as busy.

Recruit some Gardaí, train them up, don't send a soldier to do a police job.

MagicSean · 20-08-2012 10:07AM

Terrontress wrote: »

This is a carbon copy of what the police in the UK are doing and have done.

People are justifying an external agency's involvement in policing because the Gardai are stretched. Should the answer to that not be to look for more policing?

In the UK Highways Agencies now patrol the motorway, councils look for traffic offences, police drivers are hired from recruitment agencies.

It's all fine though because police are too busy.

Then police numbers become fewer because they are not required for policing and those remaining are still as busy.

Recruit some Gardaí, train them up, don't send a soldier to do a police job.

This isn't outsourcing though. It's a different state agency doing a different job. Another poster already indicated that they are there to protect the Gardaí rather than prevent escape. It's a technical but still important difference. The army and Gardaí work under different rules and do different jobs. It's not about resources. It's about their roles.

the culture of deference · 21-08-2012 11:15AM

I am ex DOJ. I can remember single prisoners coming into Chancery street with up to 7 PO's and armed gardai just for a remand date. They would have been brought from Portlaoise or further away.

A complete waste of time and resources.

Zambia · 22-08-2012 03:04AM

Surely it would be more practical to have a Bail Judge, Defence and prosecution attend the Prison.

Sunnyisland · 22-08-2012 07:50AM

Zambia wrote: »

Surely it would be more practical to have a Bail Judge, Defence and prosecution attend the Prison.

In wheatfield/cloverhill prison there is a tunnel leading to the courts next door.

bk · 27-08-2012 03:18PM

I wonder if there is an argument for the introduction of a military police force similar to the Gendarmerie in France and similar in other countries.

Basically they would have similar powers of arrest as a Garda, but would have training more towards weapons use and riot control, versus community policing, investigation and intelligence work normally carried out by the Gardai.

The advantage of this over just using the army, is that they could work with and help the Gardai in their day to day activities and actually arrest people and not just prisoner/cash patrols.

It seems to me to be a waste using soldiers that have been trained and equipped in battlefield tactics, artillery, etc. for such mundane tasks.

This could be setup and financed by allowing soldiers to transfer over from the army to this new force and cutting the numbers in the army and their budget by the same amount, so it would be revenue neutral. In time their jeeps could be repainted blue, uniforms demilitarised, etc. to create a force to fill the gap between the Gardai and the Army.

They could then be used to "police" places like government buildings, airports, etc. do prisoner and cash transports without the need of a Garda presence, thus freeing up Gardai for more important duties elsewhere.

Just an idea worth considering.

Eru · 28-08-2012 05:35PM

bk wrote: »

I wonder if there is an argument for the introduction of a military police force similar to the Gendarmerie in France and similar in other countries.

Basically they would have similar powers of arrest as a Garda, but would have training more towards weapons use and riot control, versus community policing, investigation and intelligence work normally carried out by the Gardai.

The advantage of this over just using the army, is that they could work with and help the Gardai in their day to day activities and actually arrest people and not just prisoner/cash patrols.

It seems to me to be a waste using soldiers that have been trained and equipped in battlefield tactics, artillery, etc. for such mundane tasks.

This could be setup and financed by allowing soldiers to transfer over from the army to this new force and cutting the numbers in the army and their budget by the same amount, so it would be revenue neutral. In time their jeeps could be repainted blue, uniforms demilitarised, etc. to create a force to fill the gap between the Gardai and the Army.

They could then be used to "police" places like government buildings, airports, etc. do prisoner and cash transports without the need of a Garda presence, thus freeing up Gardai for more important duties elsewhere.

Just an idea worth considering.

Is it though? What else would they be doing other than constant training? Is it really worth paying more staff to do a job thats working just fine?

Also, do you really believe this country would support military police armed to the police running around?

Rawhead · 28-08-2012 09:08PM

bk wrote: »

I wonder if there is an argument for the introduction of a military police force similar to the Gendarmerie in France and similar in other countries.

Basically they would have similar powers of arrest as a Garda, but would have training more towards weapons use and riot control, versus community policing, investigation and intelligence work normally carried out by the Gardai.

The advantage of this over just using the army, is that they could work with and help the Gardai in their day to day activities and actually arrest people and not just prisoner/cash patrols.

It seems to me to be a waste using soldiers that have been trained and equipped in battlefield tactics, artillery, etc. for such mundane tasks.

This could be setup and financed by allowing soldiers to transfer over from the army to this new force and cutting the numbers in the army and their budget by the same amount, so it would be revenue neutral. In time their jeeps could be repainted blue, uniforms demilitarised, etc. to create a force to fill the gap between the Gardai and the Army.

They could then be used to "police" places like government buildings, airports, etc. do prisoner and cash transports without the need of a Garda presence, thus freeing up Gardai for more important duties elsewhere.

Just an idea worth considering.

The military in this country are not engaged in fighting any wars so all you would be doing is freeing them up to constantly train for something they will never do.

I would guess the Army would resist this move far more than the Gardai as it would make them virtually redundant.

Does a country of 4 million really need 2 police forces?

Is it not the CRS you are thinking about in France by the way?

In the case of prisoner escorts alone, would it not be better to select and train a small group of PO's and let them do it? Loads of ex-military in the prison service with requisite skills.

bk · 03-09-2012 10:41PM

Eru wrote: »

Is it though? What else would they be doing other than constant training? Is it really worth paying more staff to do a job thats working just fine?

Oh in my idea they wouldn't just train, but would actually be deployed to carry out policing work.

- Replace all Gardai at the airport.
- Replace all Gardai at government buildings
- Replace all Gardai on cash deliveries
- Replace all Gardai on prisoner transport

When I say replace, I mean free up the Gardai to do policing work elsewhere.

- Deploying them to set up road blocks when needed
- Deploy them to support Gardai on the ground at trouble spots like in Limerick.

Also the point is you wouldn't be paying more staff. You would simply be shuffling existing soldiers from the army to this new service and part of the army budget.

Basically you end up with 1000 extra cops and armed ones at that, at no extra cost.

On a day when we have two fatal shootings in the country, it seems we do need extra police.

Another cheap way of expanding police numbers cheaply would be setting up a transport police like they have in the UK. Basically they are police constables, with all the powers of arrest and so forth, but they don't go through full police training, instead only partial training and training aimed at specialising in transport matters (e.g. rail side safety). Most interestingly, they are completely privately financed by contributions from the airports, train stations, buses, etc. that they police.

Here we could do it by expanding the powers of the Airport Police and extending them to a transport police to also cover rail stations, LUAS trains and platforms etc. All paid for by the DAA, Irish Rail, Luas, etc.

Again this would allow Gardai who currently patrol these places to be freed up to do more serious police work.

05-09-2012 03:20PM

mcgarrett wrote: »

This is the post that finally gets down to the basic problem. The majority of these escorts are for remand hearings and bail applications. The legislation and facilities are in place for video link but it's not being used, why?

Simple answer - Solicitors and Barristers are querying how they are going to be paid .

martingriff · 05-09-2012 03:24PM

realies wrote: »

Is it not showing in a maybe twisted way that the Gardai cant handle them,Would it not be better for Garai and Public moral/image to have just the heavily Armed gardai doing the escort seems that they were the ones who brought the dundons down,

Have never heard of no criminals attacking armed Gardai, No disrespect to the army or the garda here.

How about health

martingriff · 05-09-2012 03:33PM

Terrontress wrote: »

I don't think it is fair to suggest the army do nothing.

Reread his post he was not suggesting iit he was saying people would suggest it if they saw a resourse like ther eru escorting a criminal

Edit. Alrready been said had not seen the date

05-09-2012 03:38PM

martingriff wrote: »

Reread his post he was not suggesting iit he was saying people would suggest it if they saw a resourse like ther eru escorting a criminal[/QUOTE]

This happens on a regular basis. Not every day, but certainly weekly.

MEMBER12 · 14-09-2012 09:32PM

I believe that if given the choice members would pay for there own weapons, I think the Gardai should be armed sooner rather than later.

MagicSean · 14-09-2012 09:43PM

MEMBER12 wrote: »

I believe that if given the choice members would pay for there own weapons, I think the Gardai should be armed sooner rather than later.

I believe they would not

Army escorting prisoners

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