is the govt about to fall?

Boombastic · 03-09-2012 12:29PM

neil_hosey wrote: »

i claim meath

You will have to fight me for the seat of the high king. On Guard!!

cometogether · 03-09-2012 12:29PM

Why don't we just have a revolution, seriously? I'm talking guns and lynching.

syklops · 03-09-2012 12:30PM

Ghandee wrote: »

Currently being discussed on 2fm with colm Hayes.
Labour party chairman was on to the show via phone, seems very very unhappy with a few FG decisions of late.

The Labour Party chairman rang 2fm? Probably because RTE 1 hung up on him.

"I want to talk to Joe Duffy! Or Pat Kenny or someone with the respect of the pee-ple!"
RTE Spokesperson:" Joe isnt on until after the news at one, and Pat is already in his slippers. Would Ronan Collins do?

ejmaztec · 03-09-2012 12:33PM

cometogether wrote: »

Why don't we just have a revolution, seriously? I'm talking guns and lynching.

That will be a natural progression because there won't be anyone left to vote for, most of them having blotted their copy-books.

Boombastic · 03-09-2012 12:37PM

I don't mind if the government falls
Implements more futile laws
I don't care if the nation stalls
And I don't care at all

na, na, na, na..

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2012 12:38PM

meathstevie wrote: »

And if there was an election what would change ? This country would need to grow a set of balls and deal with real money draining problems and stop moaning about people working for the state, the vast majority of them on very average to modest conditions.

When I look down my street of 12 houses there's only 3 in which people are working, officially that is. The rest is on the dole and at least 5 out of the 11 people involved are doing plenty of casual of the books work on a very regular basis. It's not only the fact that the state pays them their unemployment benefits but also all the attached benefits which runs into a few hundred Euro a week a head and how many of these chancers are there running about nationwide ? Some proper social welfare inspections could save this country millions a week.

How did a thread on whether the government will fall soon lead you think its time to attack on people on SW?

If you know for a fact that people are claiming SW and working on the side - report them.

JohnMarston · 03-09-2012 12:44PM

cometogether wrote: »

Why don't we just have a revolution, seriously? I'm talking guns and lynching.

I can't go play revolution this week, early morning starts for work and all

The_Minister · 03-09-2012 12:46PM

cometogether wrote: »

Why don't we just have a revolution, seriously? I'm talking guns and lynching.

And then what?

We set up a democracy where we vote the exact same kind of people in?

They aren't dictators, they're the politicians we want.

cometogether · 03-09-2012 12:46PM

JohnMarston wrote: »

I can't go play revolution this week, early morning starts for work and all

I just got back from the Electric Picnic, I'm f ucking knackered, next month?:p

Sleepy · 03-09-2012 12:49PM

Presumably this is Labour trying to distance themselves from the cutbacks that'll be necessary in the up-coming budget.

There's nothing to be gained from another election unless the rumours that Shane Ross is putting together a new party are true in which case we could see a FG / [new centre-right party] coalition. The anger amongst the middle class that feel like they're being taxed out of existence is becoming more palpable and since FG would inevitably blame Labour for the tax-hikes, claiming they wanted to cut the dole etc. they could see an upsurge in support (though how much of the anti-FF vote they got in the last election they could hold onto would be questionable).

Labour would be the biggest loser in an election imo. They're losing the "money grows on trees: no to taxes and no to cuts" morons to Sinn Fein, much of their traditional supporters would (ironically for a leftist party) feel betrayed by the property tax and they're not going to get any new support after this term in government.

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2012 01:06PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Presumably this is Labour trying to distance themselves from the cutbacks that'll be necessary in the up-coming budget.

There's nothing to be gained from another election unless the rumours that Shane Ross is putting together a new party are true in which case we could see a FG / [new centre-right party] coalition. The anger amongst the middle class that feel like they're being taxed out of existence is becoming more palpable and since FG would inevitably blame Labour for the tax-hikes, claiming they wanted to cut the dole etc. they could see an upsurge in support (though how much of the anti-FF vote they got in the last election they could hold onto would be questionable).

Labour would be the biggest loser in an election imo. They're losing the "money grows on trees: no to taxes and no to cuts" morons to Sinn Fein, much of their traditional supporters would (ironically for a leftist party) feel betrayed by the property tax and they're not going to get any new support after this term in government.

If FG seek to blame Labour by claiming they blocked cuts to SW and this directly lead to tax increases they may want to consider that there are over to half a million voters in receipt of SW (JSB/JSA/Lone Parent/Disability - all SW).

FG won a huge slice of the vote in the GE by presenting themselves as the alternative to FF. Then proceeded to implement FF's policies one they got in power. People arn't going to forget that.

I always thought Labour were making a mistake going into government with FG and think that if the party is to survive they are going to have to re-establish themselves once again.

As for the Property Tax - my issue with the Household Charge it is that it is meant to pay for services provided by the local authorities therefore I believe it should be paid directly to the local authorities by every household - including LA tenants. See, being left wing so I believe we all should pay to fund local services that we all use.

seamus · 03-09-2012 01:06PM

It could be the start of a split in Labour. For years they've comfortably occupied the space between Sinn Féin socialism and Fine Gael centrism.

On this revolution of the wheel, they've discovered that the rescue of the country is less compatible with socialist policies than it is with centrist policies. This is what I reckon has created friction moreso within Labour than between Labour and FG. The more leftist members of Labour are disillusioned with what they perceive to be concessions to FG, while the more centrist elements are frustrated with the constant resistance to necessary measures.

New Labour, perhaps?

Biggins · 03-09-2012 01:09PM

Confab wrote: »

How is this different to any other democratic country? This is situation normal.

It certainly is for Ireland this last few terms - and still don't make it right or acceptable!

mikom · 03-09-2012 01:11PM

Ladies, ladies, the government won't fall so long as Edna Kenny is kept well clear of any stray flowerpots.

seamus · 03-09-2012 01:14PM

Biggins wrote: »

It certainly is for Ireland this last few terms - and still don't make it right or acceptable!

The funny thing of course being that the current government is probably the most open, honest and respectable one we've had since the Republic was founded.

Which could make you laugh or cry...

Colmustard · 03-09-2012 01:21PM

seamus wrote: »

The funny thing of course being that the current government is probably the most open, honest and respectable one we've had since the Republic was founded.

Which could make you laugh or cry...

Yeah I agree and it sucks. Its a pity we hadn't got this competent government when times were better.

Gilmore has disappointed me, he was great in opposition, but now you don't hear a peek from him.

K3lso · 03-09-2012 01:22PM

I believe we need less government, not more.

Seems most of the problems we face right now have been caused by incompetence. Massive overspending, bailing out private companies - it's all very Mr. Bean. Having said that, this government won't fall anytime soon - not that they're doing a great job or anything, quite the opposite. Unless there are marches/protests in the street akin to the final FF days, then this shower will continue to ransack the place and sail off into the sunset with massive pensions.

Did anyone honestly think that the oldest serving member in Dail Eireann, Enda Kenny, would have any stomach for change?! He was there through it all, seen it, done it, wore the t-shirt, collected his salary, sat on his hands and kept his mouth shut. The only parties that differ in any real terms are the ULA and they'd send this country back to the stone-age.

What we have to do is to get politically active. Join the parties and infiltrate them. Change them from the inside. Vote to remove the Establishment. If you're a private sector worker and you vote Labour next time, don't go on a hissy fit when they raise taxes on you to pay for the Croke Park Agreement - use your head. Encourage others that seek to set up other parties, join them and take a stand.

If we sit on our hands, nothing will change. And that's a guarantee you can take to the bank.

Biggins · 03-09-2012 01:31PM

seamus wrote: »

The funny thing of course being that the current government is probably the most open, honest and respectable one we've had since the Republic was founded.

Which could make you laugh or cry...

Honest?
No.

Open?
Questionable!

Respectable?
Unsure.

ejmaztec · 03-09-2012 01:35PM

Biggins wrote: »

Honest?
No.

Open?
Questionable!

Respectable?
Unsure.

Money-grabbing gravy-train passengers?

Yes.

e.g.

TDs got €34,300 pay-off to give up council seats

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tds-got-34300-payoff-to-give-up-council-seats-3217253.html

..even though some of the TDs aren't in government.

crusher000 · 03-09-2012 01:41PM

I can hear the if we step out of Government now it will furhter de stabilise the country and serve no real purpose. We are fully committed to staying in power to get the Country back to economic recovery and get Ireland working again speech.

This ones for free all others will pay here after.

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2012 01:43PM

K3lso wrote: »

I believe we need less government, not more.

Seems most of the problems we face right now have been caused by incompetence. Massive overspending, bailing out private companies - it's all very Mr. Bean. Having said that, this government won't fall anytime soon - not that they're doing a great job or anything, quite the opposite. Unless there are marches/protests in the street akin to the final FF days, then this shower will continue to ransack the place and sail off into the sunset with massive pensions.

Did anyone honestly think that the oldest serving member in Dail Eireann, Enda Kenny, would have any stomach for change?! He was there through it all, seen it, done it, wore the t-shirt, collected his salary, sat on his hands and kept his mouth shut. The only parties that differ in any real terms are the ULA and they'd send this country back to the stone-age.

What we have to do is to get politically active. Join the parties and infiltrate them. Change them from the inside. Vote to remove the Establishment. If you're a private sector worker and you vote Labour next time, don't go on a hissy fit when they raise taxes on you to pay for the Croke Park Agreement - use your head. Encourage others that seek to set up other parties, join them and take a stand.

If we sit on our hands, nothing will change. And that's a guarantee you can take to the bank.

Rather then use the blanket term 'less government' which to me smacks of light-touch regulation which helped get us in this mess in the first place I would say we need accountable government - one in which pay caps are pay caps with no exceptions; salaries are linked to the average industrial wage as determined by the CSO; no unvouched expense claims (I would go so far as to say all expense claims should be itemised and full details published); no pensions paid out of the Exchequer to be claimed before the statutory retirement age and then only one per person; A cap to be set on maximum State pension payable - I would suggest the average wage as determined by the CSO -people could top up with a private pension if they desire; those Civil and Public sector workers who have demonstrably failed to do their jobs should face dismissal and sanction, including prosecution if deemed appropriate, a successful prosecution should result in loss of any State pension linked to their job.

dvpower · 03-09-2012 02:43PM

Ghandee wrote: »

Lots of rumours and discussions on radio shows this morning that the current govt may be about to fall.

Apparently labour party members have been told to prepare themselves for a possible imminent general election.

Apparently Sinn Fein plan to put down a motion of no confidence in James Reilly after his handling of €130m health cut backs.

Labour/FG coalition was never a match made in heaven, but its unwinding a lot quicker than I thought possible.

Opinions anyone?

I thought today was supposed to mark the end of the silly season?

jank · 03-09-2012 02:57PM

It would be a laugh if Labour pulled out. They are all bark with no bite and are doing now what they are always good at doing. Talking up the ante without actually doing anything. I would exclude Quinn and Collins from the rest of the labour crowd.

They know that big cuts are still coming and are just playing to their plebs in the PS.

K3lso · 03-09-2012 03:44PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Rather then use the blanket term 'less government' which to me smacks of light-touch regulation which helped get us in this mess in the first place I would say we need accountable government

Not gonna happen.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is just the way it is. Your heart is in the right place but government will never be transparent. The only accountability we get is at the ballot box. Anything they do in between those terms is anyones guess. They'll never be held accountable - when has anyone in government been held accountable. It's a fairytale, a myth, a promise opposition spew to the populace to get into power, nothing more. And with all the layers of government, a monstrous runaway train of bureaucracy and special interest lobbying, your idea of accountability is lost.

The only real change you'll ever get will be when government is much smaller. If you would like to have a discussion on what can be done to cut the deficit, then fair enough. There are over 750+ quangos in this country - most of them can be gone in a few months. Privatise RTE, sell off state bodies and cut the public service bill. All this and we haven't even touched social welfare, the holy grail HSE (which should be privatised) or education.
The problem is that government is not willing to cut....ANYTHING. All we're getting are new taxes - we have a history of evidence that suggest you cannot tax your way out of recession. We need cut and cut BIG.

Lastly, you're of the opinion that light touch regulation got us into this mess. Nothing could be further from the truth. What got us into this mess was incompetence and an utter contempt for capitalism and free markets. Those banks, like your grocery store around the corner, should have been left to fall. If we had less regulation, we'd have 10,000 banks springing up tomorrow morning to take their place. The problem is government regulation that is killing the economy. You can't expect us to hold out our crystal balls and predict every regulation or piece of legislation that will be needed to avoid calamity in the future. The best option is to let these people go and set up their private companies - the mismanaged one's will fall overnight and the most competent one's will prosper and grow.

Just get out of the way and let people earn a living for their families.

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2012 04:09PM

K3lso wrote: »

Not gonna happen.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is just the way it is. Your heart is in the right place but government will never be transparent. The only accountability we get is at the ballot box. Anything they do in between those terms is anyones guess. They'll never be held accountable - when has anyone in government been held accountable. It's a fairytale, a myth, a promise opposition spew to the populace to get into power, nothing more. And with all the layers of government, a monstrous runaway train of bureaucracy and special interest lobbying, your idea of accountability is lost.

The only real change you'll ever get will be when government is much smaller. If you would like to have a discussion on what can be done to cut the deficit, then fair enough. There are over 750+ quangos in this country - most of them can be gone in a few months. Privatise RTE, sell off state bodies and cut the public service bill. All this and we haven't even touched social welfare, the holy grail HSE (which should be privatised) or education.
The problem is that government is not willing to cut....ANYTHING. All we're getting are new taxes - we have a history of evidence that suggest you cannot tax your way out of recession. We need cut and cut BIG.

Lastly, you're of the opinion that light touch regulation got us into this mess. Nothing could be further from the truth. What got us into this mess was incompetence and an utter contempt for capitalism and free markets. Those banks, like your grocery store around the corner, should have been left to fall. If we had less regulation, we'd have 10,000 banks springing up tomorrow morning to take their place. The problem is government regulation that is killing the economy. You can't expect us to hold out our crystal balls and predict every regulation or piece of legislation that will be needed to avoid calamity in the future. The best option is to let these people go and set up their private companies - the mismanaged one's will fall overnight and the most competent one's will prosper and grow.

Just get out of the way and let people earn a living for their families.

So because power corrupts we should lessen regulation?
Does the pursuit of profit not corrupt?

Red Tape and regulation are not the same thing. I agree the amount of red tape in Ireland is beyond a joke but disagree that all regulation should be abolished I believe the regulators should actually do their jobs and regulate. Which demonstrably did not happen during the Celtic Tiger years - as those who bought apartments in Priory Hall can testify. Is that what you want more of?

We now have a government who announced pay caps - the proceeded to introduce exceptions. We have a government that is cutting essential services (and home help is an essential service) but continues to pay its own members an allowance for dry cleaning. They are not accountable to the electorate and they know it, the pathetic thing is we keep electing the same people over and over. That must change.

Sleepy · 03-09-2012 04:12PM

Colmustard wrote: »

Gilmore has disappointed me, he was great in opposition, but now you don't hear a peek from him.

It's easy to be great in opposition: you don't have to balance a budget.

Labour's great problem, and arguably this government's o,p, is that the voters they most represent are the ones who receive the majority of the state's spending: public sector workers and welfare recipients.

They're the wrong party to be in government at a time when we need to apply cuts to both of these groups in order to reduce the impact of budget cuts on our health system, education system and other essential services.

As long as Labour are in government, they'll continue to lose voters to Sinn Fein while the latter party promises free everything an no taxes safe in the knowledge they'll never actually be tasked with delivering on their rhetoric. As the other parties seem to be catching up to Labour's more progressive views regarding gay rights, equality etc. they're going to lose their traditional edge with the "right on" voters too imo.

K3lso · 03-09-2012 04:37PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So because power corrupts we should lessen regulation?
Does the pursuit of profit not corrupt?

Red Tape and regulation are not the same thing. I agree the amount of red tape in Ireland is beyond a joke but disagree that all regulation should be abolished I believe the regulators should actually do their jobs and regulate. Which demonstrably did not happen during the Celtic Tiger years - as those who bought apartments in Priory Hall can testify. Is that what you want more of?

We now have a government who announced pay caps - the proceeded to introduce exceptions. We have a government that is cutting essential services (and home help is an essential service) but continues to pay its own members an allowance for dry cleaning. They are not accountable to the electorate and they know it, the pathetic thing is we keep electing the same people over and over. That must change.

Regulators don't regulate - it's a mirage, an illusion.

Why? Because it is the people running private companies that get to do all the regulating. So why is this a bad thing? Because it allows the established companies and elites to create barriers to entry into their own vested interest industries. Who was regulating the banks? Bankers. And the only thing they're interested in is a monopoly backed by government. For the ordinary guy in the street like you or I, regulations hurt us, our families. They don't allow you or me to set up a business tomorrow and grow it on the backs of good consumer service or our hard work.

There is only one thing that regulates - us, the people, the consumers. And that doesn't involve hundreds of pages of complex language and paperwork. All it requires is that capitalism is allowed to be capitalism. Somehow, the media have managed to turn that on it's head and convince the majority of us that regulating our opportunities away to earn a few bob is in our interests. Nothing could more ridiculous.

What this government is engaged in is nothing more than Fascism in the truest sense of the word. They're raising taxes on private sector workers to feed a public service and then regulating away competition to those public services so that viable, proven and hardworking private individuals like you or I cannot compete to create alternatives. All the while, and here's the zinger - bailing out private industries protected by regulators.

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2012 04:49PM

K3lso wrote: »

Regulators don't regulate - it's a mirage, an illusion.

Why? Because it is the people running private companies that get to do all the regulating. So why is this a bad thing? Because it allows the established companies and elites to create barriers to entry into their own vested interest industries. Who was regulating the banks? Bankers. And the only thing they're interested in is a monopoly backed by government. For the ordinary guy in the street like you or I, regulations hurt us, our families. They don't allow you or me to set up a business tomorrow and grow it on the backs of good consumer service or our hard work.

There is only one thing that regulates - us, the people, the consumers. And that doesn't involve hundreds of pages of complex language and paperwork. All it requires is that capitalism is allowed to be capitalism. Somehow, the media have managed to turn that on it's head and convince the majority of us that regulating our opportunities to earn a few bob is in our interests. Nothing could more ridiculous.

What this government is engaged in is nothing more than Fascism in the truest sense of the word. They're raising taxes on private sector workers to feed a public service and then regulating away competition to those public services so that viable, proven and hardworking private individuals like you or I cannot compete to create alternatives. All the while, and here's the zinger - bailing out private industries protected by regulators.

Fascism? You don't think that is a bit over the top?

I am a bit confused - on the one hand you are stating that there is no regulating occurring but on the other hand call for no regulation.

In order for Capitalism to be Capitalism in the way I think you mean it requires a complete lack of regulation and reliance on market forces to 'regulate'. That is what happened with the banks and it created a bubble. The banks were run on the principles of the free market right up until the moment their huge debts was nationalised. So they have managed to both have their cake and eat it (and a large slice of our cake too).

K3lso · 03-09-2012 05:05PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Fascism? You don't think that is a bit over the top?

I am a bit confused - on the one hand you are stating that there is no regulating occurring but on the other hand call for no regulation.

In order for Capitalism to be Capitalism in the way I think you mean it requires a complete lack of regulation and reliance on market forces to 'regulate'. That is what happened with the banks and it created a bubble. The banks were run on the principles of the free market right up until the moment their huge debts was nationalised. So they have managed to both have their cake and eat it (and a large slice of our cake too).

Not true.

No bubble can exist without the massive expansion of easy credit available to the banks in the form of quantitative easing. The banks before the bust were not run on capitalistic principles. Particularly when you know government is there to bail you out, one has a tendency to not give a damn. If these banks were self-regulated i.e - the market, they wouldn't have been so badly mismanaged because it would have spelled their doom.

To answer your question, capitalism is the fullest expression of anarchism and anarchism is the fullest expression of capitalism. Think about it, billions of people around the globe creating services and products for consumption by other individuals who in turn, trade their own services and products. Where exactly does a central bank that has the power to devalue a fiat paper currency imposed on the people?

"Fascism" is not a strong word, no. It might be a dirty word, yes but it is perfect for this example. After WW2, anyone remotely involved in anything fascist would be flogged. Today, the same system applies, only it's called "Corporatism". Meaning, the elite regulate the ordinary people and create barriers to entry. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. There are now more billionaires than ever before in our history. Is this because they are supplying a great service or product at an inexpensive price? Absolutely not. They're using the system and it's rigged in their favour. To the multi-billionaires, Capitalism is something that must be suppressed at all costs. Because it's not in their interests to compete with us.

entropi · 03-09-2012 05:11PM

The_Minister wrote: »

They aren't dictators, they're the politicians we want.

Its not that we want them, there's just not a good choice, from a very limited pool. Same old faces, same old problems.

is the govt about to fall?

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