Kenny vs Cowen

leggo wrote: »

I'm not saying you imagined anything, I'm saying that the claim you're making is that Fine Gael are as bad as Fianna Fail and you've yet to substantiate that with anything more than buzzwords.

The potential closure of one or two hospitals, while unfortunate and possibly even devastating for the local community, does not an entire country ruin.

However, granting a blanket guarantee to all dodgy banks - regardless of bad practises within Anglo etc - then surrendering our economic sovereignty to the EU/IMF...does.

I don't wish to be drawn into defending Enda and co. As I've stated early into this debate, I didn't even vote for them.

Whether they've gone back on promises or not (and I still think you're naive to believe every word that politicians say...especially when they are democratically elected and people-pleasing is a requirement of the job), that doesn't mean they've been as bad as FF. And, by the way, going back on pre-election or even current promises doesn't make a government corrupt.

You've dodged my questions about Obama several times now, I have to imagine that's because you don't feel he is corrupt...else of course you'd make that point. The reason I ask is because his promises (both pre-election and current) on the likes of immigration and foreign policy are in direct contradiction to his actions in those fields. I don't believe that makes him corrupt or even a particularly poor President in the grand scheme, it just shows that there is a long way between pledging something and making it so. The coalition, in particular, are limited in their capacity to make changes and live up to pledges by the fact that we no longer have full control over our own economy.

Whether they go on to become as bad as FF in the future is a different story. Had you made the point that you were concerned about them doing so eventually, we might've been closer to agreement.

The points you have made, however, are hyperbolic, downplaying the damage FF have done and misguided in the extreme.

Now, at this juncture we are going around in circles, so I suggest we cease hijacking this thread and agree to disagree.

have2flushtwice wrote: »

There is a lot of critism of the current govt in relation to broken promises which were made. I came accross the below article today, on the fine gael website.....

Also, I do remember when FF were in power, on six-one saying the "IMF are not here, they are not coming" with two more FF ministers standing behind him shaking their heads, mouthing "no, no, no".
two days later the IMF arrived, and stayed in the hotel they had booked the week before, booked by the FF govt!

so back on topic, is the debate focussing on Kenny vs cowen, or one govt vs the other?


because if the people vote in the govt, and the govt vote the leader, then its up to the govt to provide the leader, which is what we are comparing here, leaders, not govts.


http://www.finegael2011.com/pressreleases.asp?artId=5A5D

Wednesday, 2nd February 2011

Fine Gael’s 5 Point Plan to Get Ireland Working - Kenny

Fine Gael Party Leader, Enda Kenny T.D. along with members of his Front Bench will today (Wednesday) outline the core elements of the Party’s 5 Point Plan to Get Ireland Working. The Plan is designed to create jobs, reform the health system, fix the budget crisis, make Government smaller and more cost effective and put the burden on politicians first.




“At the heart of the current economic crisis is an unemployment crisis. Over the last three years 300,000 people have lost their jobs – the biggest fall in employment in the OECD and 100,000 mostly young people will emigrate over the next two years.




“Fine Gael has a clear credible jobs plan which will create 20,000 jobs every year over the next four years by focusing on spending cuts rather than job-destroying tax increases. We will invest in our future through our NewERA plan to pump €7 billion in green infrastructure. We will invest in small and medium sized businesses through a new partial loan guarantee scheme which will give them the credit they so desperately need. In addition, we intend to abolish the lower rate of employer PRSI to encourage the creation and retention of jobs.


“No economy has ever taxed its way back to recovery. Our budgetary plan will not increase income taxes, the 12.5% corporation tax or taxes on employment. We remain committed to reducing the Budget deficit by 2014 and our goal is to achieve a current budget surplus. By cutting down on waste and inefficiency Fine Gael will keep the Old Age Contributory and Non-Contributory Pensions at itheir current level. Working-age payments to carers, the blind and the disabled will also be maintained. We will minimise further reductions in job-seekers’ payments and other working age social welfare payments by getting more people back to work, and by reducing the massive levels of fraud and administrative cost in the current welfare system.
“Fine Gael is convinced that the public sector has a crucial role to play in Ireland’s future. Public service is about enriching the lives of people and helping the most vulnerable in our society. But Fine Gael also believes that reform is essential. Put simply, Government must become smallerand Government must perform better. Government has to deliver better value in order to reduce the deficit, avoid job-destroying tax increases and protect frontline services. As part of this reform Fine Gael will: Abolish 145 state bodies and companies; reduce the total public service headcount by 30,000 by 2014 compared to 2010 while protecting frontline services; introduce a salary cap of €200,000 for everyone; gradually dismantle the HSE and FÁS, and create a single, more powerful Competition and Utilities Commission to champion the consumer.
“In order to have the moral authority to take the tough decisions that will need to be taken, the political system must first look to itself.Fine Gael will implement the most ambitious programme for political reform since the 1930s. We will reduce the total number of Oireachtas members by a third by abolishing the Seanad and cutting the number of TDs by 20. We will significantly strengthen Freedom of Information; establish a “whistleblowers charter”; register all lobbyists; create a new Electoral Commission; amend the constitution to give Dáil committees full powers of investigation and strengthen the power of local government. Fine Gael is serious about political reform, it is overdue and the people are rightfully demanding it.
“Our health system has been broken for many years and Fine Gael has a plan to fix it. FairCare will gradually dismantle the HSE and replace it with a system of Universal Health Insurance (UHI) starting in 2016, based on the very efficient Dutch model of healthcare. Once UHI is fully introduced the unfair and inefficient two-tier health system will be eliminated. Under the Fine Gael system hospitals will be paid for the number of patients they treat rather than giving block grants (Money Follows the Patient). We will introduce more affordable GP care by opening up contracts to all qualified doctors. Fine Gael will reduce waiting lists by establishing a Special Delivery unit, which reports directly to the Minister, to better manage waiting lists.

“Fine Gael’s 5 Point Plan to Get Ireland Working can work, and will work. I believe that there exists within the Fine Gael team the talent and energy to implement the change of direction needed in Ireland to allow this country get back on it its feet.”

Sand wrote: »

leggo - its about leadership. Either you get it, or you dont.



We would probably be better getting area managers from Dunnes to replace most of the dead weight in the states institutions. Everyone wins.

You are falling prey to the malign myth of Official Ireland whereby it is assumed that if you pay someone hundreds of thousands of euros, you will get a great performance whereas if you don't, you wont.

This is quite simply garbage. Irish bankers were and are paid ridiculous sums for terrible results. Irish civil servants were and are paid ridiculous sums for terrible results. Irish politicians were and are paid ridiculous sums for terrible results. Meanwhile, bankers, civil servants and politicians paid less than their Irish colleagues deliver better results. There is no direct link between pay and performance.