Kenny vs Cowen

have2flushtwice

Have we voted in the same old style, by choice or lack of options?

Despite Enda coming out before the budget and telling us "its not your fault", and then telling the EU that "people" borrowed, (words can be twisted by whomever wants to twist them, being the media, FG or opposition,) I don't see how we are any better off with out new leader.

In my opinion, Brian Cowen was as unlucky as you can get to be handed the responsibility when Bertie shot out the back door. But he took it, he tried, and yes he was minister for finance prior to that, so there was a history - he had to know what was coming. But I cannot see how, to date, Enda has done more than Cowen, so are they both in the same league? I dont see obvious progress for the people or the country? do you? Have things improved for you?

Yes, bankers have played musical chairs, NAMA has been doing its thing, but in the grand scale of things, we continue to emigrate, become unemployed, growth hasnt improved, our "jobs budget" is nowhere it be seen, our hospitals are still closing, and there has been no significant impression on the economy.

By the way, heres half a million: cut the laundry allowance for TD's, €3250 *168 = a start.

PS
I didn't realise how hard it is to keep a post on topic and not descend into a rant!!

johnnyskeleton

It is important to remember that a Taoiseach is not the government, nor is he the party/parties that he is elected from.

Kenny has been very low key so far but I think overall he presents himself far better internationally than Cowen. Not to attack Cowen personally, but it was easy for other countries to look at him as the embodiment of a nation that had gorged itself for too long.

Kenny's style is also quite different as the sort of "chairman" rather than "president". He lets his ministers take centre stage rather than trying to hog the limelight.

As to whether the new government is any better than the old, well:

1) in terms of policy - not really, they are bound by the CPA, bound by the IMF/EU bailout, left with a huge deficit and national debt, left with the banking guarantee and left with the social problems left over from the previous government. Their hands are tied, essentially. But as things start to stabilise and get better, then we should see the differences (if any) in policy between the new government and the old;

2) in terms of honesty - somewhat. Although there is a significant sense of the new government bringing a new era, they are up to too many of their old tricks - appointing acolytes to cushy new positions, serving their parties' interests over the nations, and occasionally letting the mask slip and revealing that while they are asking people to make substantial changes to their lifestyles, the politicians are carrying on more or less as before.

Ultimately though, there is too short a space of time between the two governments to come to any firm conclusions. The people could have voted for a radical change, but decided instead for a more measured approach, which is why the people got the Taoiseach that suits their purposes.

JustinDee

It is also important to realise that the government have been in situ just under one year.
Hardly the timeframe where anyone would see a turnaround of around fifteen years of wanton abandonment in management of the economy by their predecessors.

irishh_bob

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

It is important to remember that a Taoiseach is not the government, nor is he the party/parties that he is elected from.

Kenny has been very low key so far but I think overall he presents himself far better internationally than Cowen. Not to attack Cowen personally, but it was easy for other countries to look at him as the embodiment of a nation that had gorged itself for too long.

Kenny's style is also quite different as the sort of "chairman" rather than "president". He lets his ministers take centre stage rather than trying to hog the limelight.

As to whether the new government is any better than the old, well:

1) in terms of policy - not really, they are bound by the CPA, bound by the IMF/EU bailout, left with a huge deficit and national debt, left with the banking guarantee and left with the social problems left over from the previous government. Their hands are tied, essentially. But as things start to stabilise and get better, then we should see the differences (if any) in policy between the new government and the old;

2) in terms of honesty - somewhat. Although there is a significant sense of the new government bringing a new era, they are up to too many of their old tricks - appointing acolytes to cushy new positions, serving their parties' interests over the nations, and occasionally letting the mask slip and revealing that while they are asking people to make substantial changes to their lifestyles, the politicians are carrying on more or less as before.

Ultimately though, there is too short a space of time between the two governments to come to any firm conclusions. The people could have voted for a radical change, but decided instead for a more measured approach, which is why the people got the Taoiseach that suits their purposes.

they ( the goverment ) are not bound by the croke park agreement , they have just chosen to stick with it for political reasons

Slydice

have2flushtwice wrote: »

In my opinion, Brian Cowen was as unlucky as you can get to be handed the responsibility when Bertie shot out the back door.

Nah, he was there alongside Bertie pretty much the whole time. He knew what he was doing and what he was getting into. He sure did kick the can for as long as he could though.

john reilly

JustinDee wrote: »

It is also important to realise that the government have been in situ just under one year.
Hardly the timeframe where anyone would see a turnaround of around fifteen years of wanton abandonment in management of the economy by their predecessors.

wanton abandoment of the ecconomy. did you sleep through the internationally lauded celtic tiger. when we were held up as a shining example of how a third world ecconomy could become a leading first world ecconomy

JustinDee

john reilly wrote: »

wanton abandoment of the ecconomy. did you sleep through the internationally lauded celtic tiger. when we were held up as a shining example of how a third world ecconomy could become a leading first world ecconomy

Our government was warned by the EU to take a different direction hence the rhetoric from McCreevy in 2000 and 2001. Hardly the shining example set.
So yep, "wanton abandonment" suits just fine.

Stop trying to blame everyone else. Nobody was forced to do anything.

Dannyboy83

john reilly wrote: »

wanton abandoment of the ecconomy. did you sleep through the internationally lauded celtic tiger. when we were held up as a shining example of how a third world ecconomy could become a leading first world ecconomy

Didn't realise this argument was still being made, thought everyone had moved on.

Enron was a shining example, Anglo Irish Bank was a shining example, Bernie Madoff was a shining example.
It transpired that they were all ponzi schemes in the end, just like the Celtic Tiger.

Now we are a shining example of what not to do, both in terms of trying to develop an economy and how to escape from catastrophe.

Dannyboy83

I'm extremely pissed off with the litany of lies and broken promises from Fine Gael
(why is Irish still compulsory for the Leaving Cert cycle ? Did Brian Hayes/Fine Gael forget about this promise too?)

Even so, you'd have to be on potent mind altering substances to try compare Cowen to Enda Kenny, or any other politician for that matter.

Cowen must be one of the worst leaders in Modern Western European history and up there as one of the most arrogant also? One of the great shames is that I don't think future generations will really be able to grasp the sheer arrogance of that Cabinet....Cowen, Dempsey, Dermot Ahern... 3 of the most arrogant yet simultaneously bumbling politicians in Irish history. Noel Depmsey was like the Irish mussolini.

Bertie I genuinely believe is not mentally all there.
I believe he should have been psychologically evaluated.
I have heard a number of people with experience in the mental health field state that the man seems to display numerous symptoms of mental health problems.

Brian Lenihan made massive mistakes, nobody would doubt it, but I genuinely do feel sympathy for him because while he seemed to be doing everything in his power to try and recover from his disastrous mistake with the bank guarantee, and basically try to hold the state together and hold off a bailout - his own fcuking boss was getting pissed and going on the radio hammered. Just incredible, if it were the army, Cowen would have been shot at dawn.

If you tried to make a documentary about Cowen, it would be near impossible. The man is a caricature.

The man epitomises everything that was grotesque about the Celtic Pyramid and what I believe will in future be regarded as even more grotesque than the Civil War. Truely Ireland at it's worst.

Son Of A Vidic

^ ^ ^

I absolutely agree with you, but give Kenny and crew enough time and I have no doubt they'll meet the 'Cowen standard' of governance.

ninty9er

As the old saying goes; opinions are like arseholes.

If you think you can do better, join a party and get your name on a ballot paper.

As much as I have a dislike for Enda, it's not for the actions his government is taking so much as the fact they promised they wouldn't.

The only people to blame are those who accused FF of hypocrisy yet felt they could vote for the "truthful" FG and Lab.

Son Of A Vidic

ninty9er wrote: »

The only people to blame are those who accused FF of hypocrisy yet felt they could vote for the "truthful" FG and Lab.

Politicians inherently are creatures that speak out of both sides of their mouth. So anyone who fell for their worthless promises, should indeed hang their head. However, many people did genuinely believe their was no other alternative. So unfortunately this prevailing mindset has and probably will, continue to sentence this country to decades of incompetent political representation.

jank

JustinDee wrote: »

It is also important to realise that the government have been in situ just under one year.
Hardly the timeframe where anyone would see a turnaround of around fifteen years of wanton abandonment in management of the economy by their predecessors.

This.

If people think that FG and Enda could waltz in and fix the country in 12 months after 15 years of FF crony economics you are dreaming. It is going to take years to get this country back on the road again.
The country that FG/Labour inherited from FF was destroyed. Utterly. I don't think it could have been possible to get the country into this state if one tried. As mentioned their hands are tied by outsiders. Particularly the trokia so before someone blames Enda for a property tax or a water charge they have realise the context in which these decisions have to be made. They are basicly the cleaners of the mess.
For me I am going to reserve judgement until their term is up. In 3/4 years if we are back borrowing on the bond markets at reasonable rates, if our deficit is below 3% of GDP, public sector is reformed or moves to such effect and real efforts have been made to update the Constitution then I would vote for them.

Too many people want perfection.

Liam Byrne

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

ninty9er wrote: »

The only people to blame are those who accused FF of hypocrisy yet felt they could vote for the "truthful" FG and Lab.

Politicians inherently are creatures that speak out of both sides of their mouth. So anyone who fell for their worthless promises, should indeed hang their head. However, many people did genuinely believe their was no other alternative. So unfortunately this prevailing mindset has and probably will, continue to sentence this country to decades of incompetent political representation.

Well there was no other alternative, and much and all as I'd have liked to leave the ballot paper blank, they view those as spoilt and not as preferences.

The annoying thing is that even Shane Ross has been useless since he got elected.

So what the hell do we do to get decent, fair and honest people into the Dáil and have them be effective?

walshb

We haven't had someone who remotely resembled a leader since Reynolds 20 years ago, and even he proved that he had feet of clay. Kenny just does not have it. Never thought he did either.

Dannyboy83

Elliza wrote: »

Not to go off the topic now just a quick question why should Irish be excluded from the leaving cert??

Who said it should be excluded? - I asked why is it still compulsory.

Fine Gael promised to make Irish optional, post junior cert.
They lied.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0712/1224300558894.html

If a political party lie about their ability to transform the country's fortunes, well it's your own problem if you believe it or not.
Fianna Fail were notorious for that.

With some of Fine Gael's U-Turns, they are doing what they genuinely believe is best for the country.
I can fully accept that too.

But optional Irish is a simple policy issue and is actually a huge money saver.
There is no excuse for that particular U-Turn.

Dannyboy83

ninty9er wrote: »

As the old saying goes; opinions are like arseholes.

As the old saying goes; "There is a high probability you are going to hear opinions on an opinion forum..."

If you think you can do better, join a party and get your name on a ballot paper.

Ah, that old chestnut.
As already know, you could potentially be the greatest organiser in the history of the world, yet, if you cannot win a popularity contest, then it's too bad.

Further to this, we live in a parliamentary democracy - a system which has to be scaled. Could you tell me the last Barrack Obama type of "Outsider" figure in Irish politics?
Someone who came from being unknown, into power?
You can't, because it doesn't happen.

Fianna Fail couldn't even afford to field a candidate for the presidential election - I think that speaks volumes and puts into perspective how lame and irrelevant that that cliché is.

It's a crazy notion for Irish people to have really - The men who founded the state could not have done so by operating within the rules of the previous system. They had to create a new system.

As much as I have a dislike for Enda, it's not for the actions his government is taking so much as the fact they promised they wouldn't.

I completely agree.
FG have gotta do what they've gotta do to save the country & they were handed a nuclear explosive by Fianna Fail. Certain unpalatable decisions must be taken.
I don't have a problem in issues where their hands are tied.

It's the lies where their hands are not tied which make my blood itchy.

The only people to blame are those who accused FF of hypocrisy yet felt they could vote for the "truthful" FG and Lab.

That strikes me as a very odd statement for anyone who lived in Ireland from 2008-2011.

Do you remember when it was confirmed we were in IMF receivership?
It was when Cowen was opening Terminal 2 in Dublin, after hundreds of lies denying the reality...

"Ladies and Gentelmen, bla bla bla, Terminal 2, bla bla bla, .........oh and by the way, minor little detail, Ireland is in IMF receivership.... Now, who's for champagne?"


Whatever FG or Labour may have done, they are paragons of sincerity when contrasted with Fianna Fail!!

leggo

People are putting ridiculous expectations on the coalition's head. They aren't a year in government yet and people are holding them accountable for promises not delivered in their programme for government: said programme is supposed to cover 5 years.

And, unless you are extremely naive to politics, you don't believe that every box will be ticked...because, put simply, it's a lot easier to write a list of goals than it is to draw up comprehensive legislation, arrange to have it debated then pass it through the Dáil. A programme is, essentially, a list of targets designed to let you know what the government's aims are and give you a flavour of what to expect. Take it like a CV: it's going to be inflated but you just want to get a good idea of what to expect from it.

Just because it's not delivered word-for-word doesn't mean the government are flip-flopping or U-turning. You just hope that they'll bring in enough meaningful changes in their various sectors on balance.

I am, quite frankly, sick of the criticism being unfairly lauded on the coalition. They are nowhere near being compared to Cowen et al. They have been massively restricted in what they can and can't do by the mess they inherited and their attempts to improve our standing in Europe (whether you agree with their refusal to burn the bondholders - their intent has our best interests at heart); be as open, honest and accountable as possible; boost morale (with the likes of the Obama/Queen visits); and protect people even while making tough decisions (e.g. not raising income tax and being light on social welfare in the budget) is, frankly, a breath of fresh air compared to what we were used to.

The real indicator, for me, is that I no longer feel the sense of impending doom about the country that I did this time 12 months ago. These days, I can walk around and, for brief moments, forget there is even a recession on. I don't feel the same sense of shame that I did to be Irish last year.

Yes, the world is ****ed. Yes, the euro is going down the drain. Yes, we're entering unknown territory. But living in Ireland isn't unbearable anymore, as it was last year. And that's not bad work for just 12 months.

tayto lover

leggo wrote: »

People are putting ridiculous expectations on the coalition's head. They aren't a year in government yet and people are holding them accountable for promises not delivered in their programme for government: said programme is supposed to cover 5 years.

And, unless you are extremely naive to politics, you don't believe that every box will be ticked...because, put simply, it's a lot easier to write a list of goals than it is to draw up comprehensive legislation, arrange to have it debated then pass it through the Dáil. A programme is, essentially, a list of targets designed to let you know what the government's aims are and give you a flavour of what to expect. Take it like a CV: it's going to be inflated but you just want to get a good idea of what to expect from it.

Just because it's not delivered word-for-word doesn't mean the government are flip-flopping or U-turning. You just hope that they'll bring in enough meaningful changes in their various sectors on balance.

I am, quite frankly, sick of the criticism being unfairly lauded on the coalition. They are nowhere near being compared to Cowen et al. They have been massively restricted in what they can and can't do by the mess they inherited and their attempts to improve our standing in Europe (whether you agree with their refusal to burn the bondholders - their intent has our best interests at heart); be as open, honest and accountable as possible; boost morale (with the likes of the Obama/Queen visits); and protect people even while making tough decisions (e.g. not raising income tax and being light on social welfare in the budget) is, frankly, a breath of fresh air compared to what we were used to.

The real indicator, for me, is that I no longer feel the sense of impending doom about the country that I did this time 12 months ago. These days, I can walk around and, for brief moments, forget there is even a recession on. I don't feel the same sense of shame that I did to be Irish last year.

Yes, the world is ****ed. Yes, the euro is going down the drain. Yes, we're entering unknown territory. But living in Ireland isn't unbearable anymore, as it was last year. And that's not bad work for just 12 months.

Good for you. I don't see any difference at all. We replaced Zig with Zag.

leggo

tayto lover wrote: »

Good for you. I don't see any difference at all. We replaced Zig with Zag.

Coming from someone who voted for everyone on the ballot paper but Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, because I had that exact fear, that's simply not been the case.

Whenever I hear cack like that it does a disservice to just how poor FF were and makes me feel that people are just going to moan for the sake of it no matter what options they're given. How quickly we forget.

I remember predicting, on here I believe, that FF would be back in power within the decade. Attitudes like this, failing to realise when we actually have a better alternative, are exactly why I still stand by that.

tayto lover

leggo wrote: »

Coming from someone who voted for everyone on the ballot paper but Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, because I had that exact fear, that's simply not been the case.

Whenever I hear cack like that it does a disservice to just how poor FF were and makes me feel that people are just going to moan for the sake of it no matter what options they're given. How quickly we forget.

I remember predicting, on here I believe, that FF would be back in power within the decade. Attitudes like this, failing to realise when we actually have a better alternative, are exactly why I still stand by that.

They won't be back because people won't forget their corruption. However that does not mean that F.G. are any better. They have broken most of their promises and have not implemented any of their 5 point plan as far as I can see. My attitude is the same for both FF and FG to be honest. Cronyism and promise breaking still very much in evidence.

milehip1

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!:(

leggo

tayto lover wrote: »

They won't be back because people won't forget their corruption. However that does not mean that F.G. are any better. They have broken most of their promises and have not implemented any of their 5 point plan as far as I can see. My attitude is the same for both FF and FG to be honest. Cronyism and promise breaking still very much in evidence.

And yet you supply none to back up your claims...

We've given them a 5-year mandate for government. It's unfair to judge them word-for-word on pre-election promises (which are compromised, to begin with, as soon as you enter into a coalition) and their programme for government one year into that term.

You're forgetting Fianna Fail's corruption yourself in this post by saying Fine Gael are on a similar scale to them. You either don't understand, or have already forgotten, how bad they were in less than 12 months.

tayto lover

leggo wrote: »

And yet you supply none to back up your claims...

We've given them a 5-year mandate for government. It's unfair to judge them word-for-word on pre-election promises (which are compromised, to begin with, as soon as you enter into a coalition) and their programme for government one year into that term.

You're forgetting Fianna Fail's corruption yourself in this post by saying Fine Gael are on a similar scale to them. You either don't understand, or have already forgotten, how bad they were in less than 12 months.

Jesus have you not seen where Enda had broken rules on wages to give his cronies pay rises. He has allowed new quangos, allowed banking board members to remain, made two contrasting speeches of late on who is to blame for the mess, done nothing about winding down the Seanad etc.
Have you been abroad for a long time ?

leggo

tayto lover wrote: »

Jesus have you not seen where Enda had broken rules on wages to give his cronies pay rises. He has allowed new quangos, allowed banking board members to remain, made two contrasting speeches of late on who is to blame for the mess, done nothing about winding down the Seanad etc.
Have you been abroad for a long time ?

No, I don't just base my opinions on buzzwords the papers inform me are supposed to make me angry, like 'cronies' (:mad:) and 'quangos' (:mad::mad::mad:). I mean, with respect and I don't mean this personally, but your post reads more like the collections of The Star's headlines over the past 3 months instead of fully-formed opinions.

Example: doing nothing to wind down The Seanad? Are two referendums in one-year not enough for you now? Would you like them to wave a wand and just magically fix the country in an instant now or what? No, you'd likely moan that they weren't putting in the time to draw up proper legislation if they tried that (see the SOPA thread for more of this).

Throwing a hissy fit about him blaming Irish people for the state of the economy is also ridiculous and tabloid-like. His comments were ill-judged but were also true. Jesus, we moan when we get a bit of ****ing honesty from our politicians, then complain about them being liars in the same breath.

Do you now see why I just feel this criticism is moaning for the sake of it? FF genuinely destroyed this country. Again, I put the onus back on you, give me any evidence as to how Fine Gael have even come CLOSE to doing the same level damage and are thus worthy of comparison? And use facts, not buzzwords, in doing so please.

CrankyCod

People seem to forger that Cowen and Co were ELECTED, they didn't come up the Liffey in longboats.

Every time you read something like "Fianna Fail ruined the country" replace the words "Fianna Fail" with "the electorate".

The Irish political system is perfectly representative of the Irish people, that's the scariest thing about the last 10 years.

thebman

CrankyCod wrote: »

People seem to forger that Cowen and Co were ELECTED, they didn't come up the Liffey in longboats.

Every time you read something like "Fianna Fail ruined the country" replace the words "Fianna Fail" with "the electorate".

The Irish political system is perfectly representative of the Irish people, that's the scariest thing about the last 10 years.

I don't believe it is representative of Irish people.

If you setup national government to also cover local issues, you should not be surprised when local people pick a politician in the local interest over national interest.

To fix that, you need to fix the system. Otherwise if Joe helps Mary get planning permission, she will most likely vote for Joe for delivering what she wanted.

Ireland's problem is a broken political system that results in mostly teachers running for positions since they are free to return to their posts should they fail.

So many reasons that have little to do with the people. If you introduced the same system in another country, you'd likely see similar results. The Irish are not that unique.

john reilly

JustinDee wrote: »

Our government was warned by the EU to take a different direction hence the rhetoric from McCreevy in 2000 and 2001. Hardly the shining example set.
So yep, "wanton abandonment" suits just fine.

Stop trying to blame everyone else. Nobody was forced to do anything.

yes the e.u sets a shining example with their wonderful economic policies. its a pity their banks didnt follow their advice and not pump so much money into the irish property boom. still we were a third world economy and were heading back there just with better roads and bigger houses.

john reilly

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'm extremely pissed off with the litany of lies and broken promises from Fine Gael
(why is Irish still compulsory for the Leaving Cert cycle ? Did Brian Hayes/Fine Gael forget about this promise too?)

Even so, you'd have to be on potent mind altering substances to try compare Cowen to Enda Kenny, or any other politician for that matter.

Cowen must be one of the worst leaders in Modern Western European history and up there as one of the most arrogant also? One of the great shames is that I don't think future generations will really be able to grasp the sheer arrogance of that Cabinet....Cowen, Dempsey, Dermot Ahern... 3 of the most arrogant yet simultaneously bumbling politicians in Irish history. Noel Depmsey was like the Irish mussolini.

Bertie I genuinely believe is not mentally all there.
I believe he should have been psychologically evaluated.
I have heard a number of people with experience in the mental health field state that the man seems to display numerous symptoms of mental health problems.

Brian Lenihan made massive mistakes, nobody would doubt it, but I genuinely do feel sympathy for him because while he seemed to be doing everything in his power to try and recover from his disastrous mistake with the bank guarantee, and basically try to hold the state together and hold off a bailout - his own fcuking boss was getting pissed and going on the radio hammered. Just incredible, if it were the army, Cowen would have been shot at dawn.

If you tried to make a documentary about Cowen, it would be near impossible. The man is a caricature.

The man epitomises everything that was grotesque about the Celtic Pyramid and what I believe will in future be regarded as even more grotesque than the Civil War. Truely Ireland at it's worst.

you dont like to exagerate much.......

tayto lover

leggo wrote: »

No, I don't just base my opinions on buzzwords the papers inform me are supposed to make me angry, like 'cronies' (:mad:) and 'quangos' (:mad::mad::mad:). I mean, with respect and I don't mean this personally, but your post reads more like the collections of The Star's headlines over the past 3 months instead of fully-formed opinions.

Example: doing nothing to wind down The Seanad? Are two referendums in one-year not enough for you now? Would you like them to wave a wand and just magically fix the country in an instant now or what? No, you'd likely moan that they weren't putting in the time to draw up proper legislation if they tried that (see the SOPA thread for more of this).

Throwing a hissy fit about him blaming Irish people for the state of the economy is also ridiculous and tabloid-like. His comments were ill-judged but were also true. Jesus, we moan when we get a bit of ****ing honesty from our politicians, then complain about them being liars in the same breath.

Do you now see why I just feel this criticism is moaning for the sake of it? FF genuinely destroyed this country. Again, I put the onus back on you, give me any evidence as to how Fine Gael have even come CLOSE to doing the same level damage and are thus worthy of comparison? And use facts, not buzzwords, in doing so please.

Firstly I don't read the Star or any other newspaper as the Govt have a big influence in most of them in my opinion.
F.G. were useless even while in opposition and were content to play along with F.F. Silence is golden.
A pay rise for Enda's adviser is not a buzzword at all its going against their own advice. Reinstating the NUI quango (3m) is also going against their promises. Now on what Enda said last week, it is entirely conflicting with what he said in his pre budger speech to the nation. Now you tell me which speech was he lying in ?

leggo

tayto lover wrote: »

Firstly I don't read the Star or any other newspaper as the Govt have a big influence in most of them in my opinion.
F.G. were useless even while in opposition and were content to play along with F.F. Silence is golden.
A pay rise for Enda's adviser is not a buzzword at all its going against their own advice. Reinstating the NUI quango (3m) is also going against their promises. Now on what Enda said last week, it is entirely conflicting with what he said in his pre budger speech to the nation. Now you tell me which speech was he lying in ?

I'm sorry if you are new to the concept of democratic politics, but taking politicians at their every word is extremely naive. They have to please the public while also trying to make positive changes to fix problems often caused by that exact public. So the truth is often considered a worthy trade-off in the process of achieving a greater good. You'd be much better served judging their actions.

For example, would you consider Obama just as destructive for his country as Fianna Fail were for Ireland?

Now, since it's you not me who is making the accusation, would you care to tell me one decision FG have made in government that is as damaging as the blanket bank bailout? A pay rise for an adviser or the introduction of a new quango doesn't really cut it tbh, you're going to have to dig deeper to substantiate that sensationalist argument.

Speaking of which, how do you feel Fine Gael or Labour influence The Star editorially? Any evidence for that? You're verging on taxi driver rhetoric with some of your claims now...

tayto lover

leggo wrote: »

I'm sorry if you are new to the concept of democratic politics, but taking politicians at their every word is extremely naive. They have to please the public while also trying to make positive changes to fix problems often caused by that exact public. So the truth is often considered a worthy trade-off in the process of achieving a greater good. You'd be much better served judging their actions.

For example, would you consider Obama just as destructive for his country as Fianna Fail were for Ireland?

Now, since it's you not me who is making the accusation, would you care to tell me one decision FG have made in government that is as damaging as the blanket bank bailout? A pay rise for an adviser or the introduction of a new quango doesn't really cut it tbh, you're going to have to dig deeper to substantiate that sensationalist argument.

Speaking of which, how do you feel Fine Gael or Labour influence The Star editorially? Any evidence for that? You're verging on taxi driver rhetoric with some of your claims now...

Thanks for at least telling the truth. So you agree that Enda WAS talking out of both sides of his mouth. Many people I know voted for FG because Veradkar promised "not another cent for Anglo" and Reilly promised "no hospital closures". Now we know that they are just as corrupt as FF, so thanks for that. Destroying the confidence of the Irish people by lying is not a crime to you maybe but it is to many voters I know. And you are right again because those silly newspaper the Independent and Star had headlines about FG promising honesty and integrity. What liars they are.

leggo

tayto lover wrote: »

Thanks for at least telling the truth. So you agree that Enda WAS talking out of both sides of his mouth. Many people I know voted for FG because Veradkar promised "not another cent for Anglo" and Reilly promised "no hospital closures". Now we know that they are just as corrupt as FF, so thanks for that. Destroying the confidence of the Irish people by lying is not a crime to you maybe but it is to many voters I know. And you are right again because those silly newspaper the Independent and Star had headlines about FG promising honesty and integrity. What liars they are.

I've read articles in the Indo this week both blasting and praising Enda.

I live in Varadkar's constituency and that's not the vibe I got off the voters there. More they were voting FG because they felt they were the only party capable of real change.

And again you appear very naive to the mechanisms of democracy and how our party system works, such as taking pre-election promises as golden when they are ALWAYS going to be compromised entering into a coalition.

So what you're telling me, by simply throwing out more unsubstantiated claims, is that you can't provide any examples of decisions as damaging as the bailout?

And is Obama corrupt? Answer the questions...you're the one making the claims. Either back them up or keep quiet.

tayto lover

leggo wrote: »

I've read articles in the Indo this week both blasting and praising Enda.

I live in Varadkar's constituency and that's not the vibe I got off the voters there. More they were voting FG because they felt they were the only party capable of real change.

And again you appear very naive to the mechanisms of democracy and how our party system works, such as taking pre-election promises as golden when they are ALWAYS going to be compromised entering into a coalition.

So what you're telling me, by simply throwing out more unsubstantiated claims, is that you can't provide any examples of decisions as damaging as the bailout?

And is Obama corrupt? Answer the questions...you're the one making the claims. Either back them up or keep quiet.

What is unsubstantiated about "not another cent into Anglo" ?
What is unsubstantiated about "there will be no hospital closures" ?
Those were the promises and are on numerous links here, you don't need e to find them for you i'm sure you are well aware of them. They are blatant LIES.
If the Bailout was wrong in many peoples opinions then FG are wrong to continue with it regardless of FF promises. They are doing nothing IN MY OPINION to rectify the situation and are just as guilty.
Now you might know some nice people in your constituency but I also know nice people and they are expressing the "traitor" view towards FG. I attended a meeting in Drogheda recently regarding the Cottage Hospital where the FG T.D. actually got his face slapped by an angry woman. She was wrong to do that by the way but the Govt representatives there had to leave in a hurry such was the anger of the crowd. NOW maybe I imagined that. Hope this link works.
http://hoganstand.com/Louth/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=160786

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGUJ_TrDvJs

Dannyboy83

john reilly wrote: »

wanton abandoment of the ecconomy. did you sleep through the internationally lauded celtic tiger. when we were held up as a shining example of how a third world ecconomy could become a leading first world ecconomy

john reilly wrote: »

you dont like to exagerate much.......

No further comment.

john reilly

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

No further comment.

hopefully you are a man of your word

scotty1

have2flushtwice wrote: »

Have we voted in the same old style, by choice or lack of options?

Despite Enda coming out before the budget and telling us "its not your fault", and then telling the EU that "people" borrowed, (words can be twisted by whomever wants to twist them, being the media, FG or opposition,) I don't see how we are any better off with out new leader.

In my opinion, Brian Cowen was as unlucky as you can get to be handed the responsibility when Bertie shot out the back door. But he took it, he tried, and yes he was minister for finance prior to that, so there was a history - he had to know what was coming. But I cannot see how, to date, Enda has done more than Cowen, so are they both in the same league? I dont see obvious progress for the people or the country? do you? Have things improved for you?

Yes, bankers have played musical chairs, NAMA has been doing its thing, but in the grand scale of things, we continue to emigrate, become unemployed, growth hasnt improved, our "jobs budget" is nowhere it be seen, our hospitals are still closing, and there has been no significant impression on the economy.

By the way, heres half a million: cut the laundry allowance for TD's, €3250 *168 = a start.

PS
I didn't realise how hard it is to keep a post on topic and not descend into a rant!!

I just think that you might be a FF sympathiser Both bertie and Brian Cowen have left this Country broke and if I had my way with those two monkeys I would sign them up to one of the most troubled spots in the world on the front line and hope we would never see or hear the likes of them again.

leggo

tayto lover wrote: »

What is unsubstantiated about "not another cent into Anglo" ?
What is unsubstantiated about "there will be no hospital closures" ?
Those were the promises and are on numerous links here, you don't need e to find them for you i'm sure you are well aware of them. They are blatant LIES.
If the Bailout was wrong in many peoples opinions then FG are wrong to continue with it regardless of FF promises. They are doing nothing IN MY OPINION to rectify the situation and are just as guilty.
Now you might know some nice people in your constituency but I also know nice people and they are expressing the "traitor" view towards FG. I attended a meeting in Drogheda recently regarding the Cottage Hospital where the FG T.D. actually got his face slapped by an angry woman. She was wrong to do that by the way but the Govt representatives there had to leave in a hurry such was the anger of the crowd. NOW maybe I imagined that. Hope this link works.
http://hoganstand.com/Louth/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=160786

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGUJ_TrDvJs

I'm not saying you imagined anything, I'm saying that the claim you're making is that Fine Gael are as bad as Fianna Fail and you've yet to substantiate that with anything more than buzzwords.

The potential closure of one or two hospitals, while unfortunate and possibly even devastating for the local community, does not an entire country ruin.

However, granting a blanket guarantee to all dodgy banks - regardless of bad practises within Anglo etc - then surrendering our economic sovereignty to the EU/IMF...does.

I don't wish to be drawn into defending Enda and co. As I've stated early into this debate, I didn't even vote for them.

Whether they've gone back on promises or not (and I still think you're naive to believe every word that politicians say...especially when they are democratically elected and people-pleasing is a requirement of the job), that doesn't mean they've been as bad as FF. And, by the way, going back on pre-election or even current promises doesn't make a government corrupt.

You've dodged my questions about Obama several times now, I have to imagine that's because you don't feel he is corrupt...else of course you'd make that point. The reason I ask is because his promises (both pre-election and current) on the likes of immigration and foreign policy are in direct contradiction to his actions in those fields. I don't believe that makes him corrupt or even a particularly poor President in the grand scheme, it just shows that there is a long way between pledging something and making it so. The coalition, in particular, are limited in their capacity to make changes and live up to pledges by the fact that we no longer have full control over our own economy.

Whether they go on to become as bad as FF in the future is a different story. Had you made the point that you were concerned about them doing so eventually, we might've been closer to agreement.

The points you have made, however, are hyperbolic, downplaying the damage FF have done and misguided in the extreme.

Now, at this juncture we are going around in circles, so I suggest we cease hijacking this thread and agree to disagree.

tayto lover

leggo wrote: »

I'm not saying you imagined anything, I'm saying that the claim you're making is that Fine Gael are as bad as Fianna Fail and you've yet to substantiate that with anything more than buzzwords.

The potential closure of one or two hospitals, while unfortunate and possibly even devastating for the local community, does not an entire country ruin.

However, granting a blanket guarantee to all dodgy banks - regardless of bad practises within Anglo etc - then surrendering our economic sovereignty to the EU/IMF...does.

I don't wish to be drawn into defending Enda and co. As I've stated early into this debate, I didn't even vote for them.

Whether they've gone back on promises or not (and I still think you're naive to believe every word that politicians say...especially when they are democratically elected and people-pleasing is a requirement of the job), that doesn't mean they've been as bad as FF. And, by the way, going back on pre-election or even current promises doesn't make a government corrupt.

You've dodged my questions about Obama several times now, I have to imagine that's because you don't feel he is corrupt...else of course you'd make that point. The reason I ask is because his promises (both pre-election and current) on the likes of immigration and foreign policy are in direct contradiction to his actions in those fields. I don't believe that makes him corrupt or even a particularly poor President in the grand scheme, it just shows that there is a long way between pledging something and making it so. The coalition, in particular, are limited in their capacity to make changes and live up to pledges by the fact that we no longer have full control over our own economy.

Whether they go on to become as bad as FF in the future is a different story. Had you made the point that you were concerned about them doing so eventually, we might've been closer to agreement.

The points you have made, however, are hyperbolic, downplaying the damage FF have done and misguided in the extreme.

Now, at this juncture we are going around in circles, so I suggest we cease hijacking this thread and agree to disagree.

I didn't answer about Obama because I have absolutely no interest in Obama or his politics. I know nothing about the U.S.A. However I do care about my own country and how it has been raped by corrupt politicians on both sides. Both sides sold us down the Swanee and looked after their own cronies, of that there is no doubt. Cronyism is still alive and well under Enda just it was under Brian. F.G. despite promising to cut it out took part in it by appointing family members to positions and breaking pay agreements.
I actually believed that things would change but silly me.

Dannyboy83

john reilly wrote: »

hopefully you are a man of your word

......I'm not the Fianna Fail sycophant, why would my integrity be compromised?

delaad

Cowen was intelligent; kenny's a poser, or should that be "poseur", given how pro-European he is.

have2flushtwice

There is a lot of critism of the current govt in relation to broken promises which were made. I came accross the below article today, on the fine gael website.....

Also, I do remember when FF were in power, on six-one saying the "IMF are not here, they are not coming" with two more FF ministers standing behind him shaking their heads, mouthing "no, no, no".
two days later the IMF arrived, and stayed in the hotel they had booked the week before, booked by the FF govt!

so back on topic, is the debate focussing on Kenny vs cowen, or one govt vs the other?


because if the people vote in the govt, and the govt vote the leader, then its up to the govt to provide the leader, which is what we are comparing here, leaders, not govts.


http://www.finegael2011.com/pressreleases.asp?artId=5A5D

Wednesday, 2nd February 2011

Fine Gael’s 5 Point Plan to Get Ireland Working - Kenny

Fine Gael Party Leader, Enda Kenny T.D. along with members of his Front Bench will today (Wednesday) outline the core elements of the Party’s 5 Point Plan to Get Ireland Working. The Plan is designed to create jobs, reform the health system, fix the budget crisis, make Government smaller and more cost effective and put the burden on politicians first.




“At the heart of the current economic crisis is an unemployment crisis. Over the last three years 300,000 people have lost their jobs – the biggest fall in employment in the OECD and 100,000 mostly young people will emigrate over the next two years.




“Fine Gael has a clear credible jobs plan which will create 20,000 jobs every year over the next four years by focusing on spending cuts rather than job-destroying tax increases. We will invest in our future through our NewERA plan to pump €7 billion in green infrastructure. We will invest in small and medium sized businesses through a new partial loan guarantee scheme which will give them the credit they so desperately need. In addition, we intend to abolish the lower rate of employer PRSI to encourage the creation and retention of jobs.


“No economy has ever taxed its way back to recovery. Our budgetary plan will not increase income taxes, the 12.5% corporation tax or taxes on employment. We remain committed to reducing the Budget deficit by 2014 and our goal is to achieve a current budget surplus. By cutting down on waste and inefficiency Fine Gael will keep the Old Age Contributory and Non-Contributory Pensions at itheir current level. Working-age payments to carers, the blind and the disabled will also be maintained. We will minimise further reductions in job-seekers’ payments and other working age social welfare payments by getting more people back to work, and by reducing the massive levels of fraud and administrative cost in the current welfare system.
“Fine Gael is convinced that the public sector has a crucial role to play in Ireland’s future. Public service is about enriching the lives of people and helping the most vulnerable in our society. But Fine Gael also believes that reform is essential. Put simply, Government must become smallerand Government must perform better. Government has to deliver better value in order to reduce the deficit, avoid job-destroying tax increases and protect frontline services. As part of this reform Fine Gael will: Abolish 145 state bodies and companies; reduce the total public service headcount by 30,000 by 2014 compared to 2010 while protecting frontline services; introduce a salary cap of €200,000 for everyone; gradually dismantle the HSE and FÁS, and create a single, more powerful Competition and Utilities Commission to champion the consumer.
“In order to have the moral authority to take the tough decisions that will need to be taken, the political system must first look to itself.Fine Gael will implement the most ambitious programme for political reform since the 1930s. We will reduce the total number of Oireachtas members by a third by abolishing the Seanad and cutting the number of TDs by 20. We will significantly strengthen Freedom of Information; establish a “whistleblowers charter”; register all lobbyists; create a new Electoral Commission; amend the constitution to give Dáil committees full powers of investigation and strengthen the power of local government. Fine Gael is serious about political reform, it is overdue and the people are rightfully demanding it.
“Our health system has been broken for many years and Fine Gael has a plan to fix it. FairCare will gradually dismantle the HSE and replace it with a system of Universal Health Insurance (UHI) starting in 2016, based on the very efficient Dutch model of healthcare. Once UHI is fully introduced the unfair and inefficient two-tier health system will be eliminated. Under the Fine Gael system hospitals will be paid for the number of patients they treat rather than giving block grants (Money Follows the Patient). We will introduce more affordable GP care by opening up contracts to all qualified doctors. Fine Gael will reduce waiting lists by establishing a Special Delivery unit, which reports directly to the Minister, to better manage waiting lists.

“Fine Gael’s 5 Point Plan to Get Ireland Working can work, and will work. I believe that there exists within the Fine Gael team the talent and energy to implement the change of direction needed in Ireland to allow this country get back on it its feet.”

tayto lover

have2flushtwice wrote: »

There is a lot of critism of the current govt in relation to broken promises which were made. I came accross the below article today, on the fine gael website.....

Also, I do remember when FF were in power, on six-one saying the "IMF are not here, they are not coming" with two more FF ministers standing behind him shaking their heads, mouthing "no, no, no".
two days later the IMF arrived, and stayed in the hotel they had booked the week before, booked by the FF govt!

so back on topic, is the debate focussing on Kenny vs cowen, or one govt vs the other?


because if the people vote in the govt, and the govt vote the leader, then its up to the govt to provide the leader, which is what we are comparing here, leaders, not govts.


http://www.finegael2011.com/pressreleases.asp?artId=5A5D

Wednesday, 2nd February 2011

Fine Gael’s 5 Point Plan to Get Ireland Working - Kenny

Fine Gael Party Leader, Enda Kenny T.D. along with members of his Front Bench will today (Wednesday) outline the core elements of the Party’s 5 Point Plan to Get Ireland Working. The Plan is designed to create jobs, reform the health system, fix the budget crisis, make Government smaller and more cost effective and put the burden on politicians first.




“At the heart of the current economic crisis is an unemployment crisis. Over the last three years 300,000 people have lost their jobs – the biggest fall in employment in the OECD and 100,000 mostly young people will emigrate over the next two years.




“Fine Gael has a clear credible jobs plan which will create 20,000 jobs every year over the next four years by focusing on spending cuts rather than job-destroying tax increases. We will invest in our future through our NewERA plan to pump €7 billion in green infrastructure. We will invest in small and medium sized businesses through a new partial loan guarantee scheme which will give them the credit they so desperately need. In addition, we intend to abolish the lower rate of employer PRSI to encourage the creation and retention of jobs.


“No economy has ever taxed its way back to recovery. Our budgetary plan will not increase income taxes, the 12.5% corporation tax or taxes on employment. We remain committed to reducing the Budget deficit by 2014 and our goal is to achieve a current budget surplus. By cutting down on waste and inefficiency Fine Gael will keep the Old Age Contributory and Non-Contributory Pensions at itheir current level. Working-age payments to carers, the blind and the disabled will also be maintained. We will minimise further reductions in job-seekers’ payments and other working age social welfare payments by getting more people back to work, and by reducing the massive levels of fraud and administrative cost in the current welfare system.
“Fine Gael is convinced that the public sector has a crucial role to play in Ireland’s future. Public service is about enriching the lives of people and helping the most vulnerable in our society. But Fine Gael also believes that reform is essential. Put simply, Government must become smallerand Government must perform better. Government has to deliver better value in order to reduce the deficit, avoid job-destroying tax increases and protect frontline services. As part of this reform Fine Gael will: Abolish 145 state bodies and companies; reduce the total public service headcount by 30,000 by 2014 compared to 2010 while protecting frontline services; introduce a salary cap of €200,000 for everyone; gradually dismantle the HSE and FÁS, and create a single, more powerful Competition and Utilities Commission to champion the consumer.
“In order to have the moral authority to take the tough decisions that will need to be taken, the political system must first look to itself.Fine Gael will implement the most ambitious programme for political reform since the 1930s. We will reduce the total number of Oireachtas members by a third by abolishing the Seanad and cutting the number of TDs by 20. We will significantly strengthen Freedom of Information; establish a “whistleblowers charter”; register all lobbyists; create a new Electoral Commission; amend the constitution to give Dáil committees full powers of investigation and strengthen the power of local government. Fine Gael is serious about political reform, it is overdue and the people are rightfully demanding it.
“Our health system has been broken for many years and Fine Gael has a plan to fix it. FairCare will gradually dismantle the HSE and replace it with a system of Universal Health Insurance (UHI) starting in 2016, based on the very efficient Dutch model of healthcare. Once UHI is fully introduced the unfair and inefficient two-tier health system will be eliminated. Under the Fine Gael system hospitals will be paid for the number of patients they treat rather than giving block grants (Money Follows the Patient). We will introduce more affordable GP care by opening up contracts to all qualified doctors. Fine Gael will reduce waiting lists by establishing a Special Delivery unit, which reports directly to the Minister, to better manage waiting lists.

“Fine Gael’s 5 Point Plan to Get Ireland Working can work, and will work. I believe that there exists within the Fine Gael team the talent and energy to implement the change of direction needed in Ireland to allow this country get back on it its feet.”

Your re-programming date is 29.2.2013.

have2flushtwice

tayto lover wrote: »

Your re-programming date is 29.2.2013.

your point being?

have2flushtwice

so 6 months later my post has been repeated, kenny vs cowen.

watch the panic between now and the budget day, the contradictions, the "must tighten our belts more" speeches etc.

however, while employers are being asked to deal with sick days, and so on, there is no sign of the govt regining in its own expenditure, from the dail bar, to transport to work, in fairness, who else can submit expenses to drive to and from the regular place of work on a daily basis? yes, you may live in cork, and have to driver to dublin, but you knew that before you took the job right?!

and expenses, lets account for them, and show us you are able to do it. im not an accountant either, but i can manage my own when i have to purchase materials for work.
so come on Enda, go set an example and put the boot into your own guys before you put the boot into the rest of the country, and lead by example, the same way as you got the bus to the Aras when you were elected with the rest of the boys!

leggo

I hate when people call for TDs' salaries to be reduced. It's such a distraction from the actual problems.

For a start, reducing salaries wouldn't make any particular dent in our sovereign debt or IMF repayments.

Secondly, what's the phrase? If you pay peanuts etc. Do people want govt ministers to work for what? €20k a year? And yet we want well educated, qualified people to run our country. The reality is that if you want them, you need to pay attractive salaries to keep them from being snapped up by the private sector. Whether you feel these people are actually qualified for the job or not isn't relevant, that's why the system is the way it is.

Fenian Army

tayto lover wrote: »

What is unsubstantiated about "not another cent into Anglo" ?
What is unsubstantiated about "there will be no hospital closures" ?
Those were the promises and are on numerous links here, you don't need e to find them for you i'm sure you are well aware of them. They are blatant LIES.
If the Bailout was wrong in many peoples opinions then FG are wrong to continue with it regardless of FF promises. They are doing nothing IN MY OPINION to rectify the situation and are just as guilty.
Now you might know some nice people in your constituency but I also know nice people and they are expressing the "traitor" view towards FG. I attended a meeting in Drogheda recently regarding the Cottage Hospital where the FG T.D. actually got his face slapped by an angry woman. She was wrong to do that by the way but the Govt representatives there had to leave in a hurry such was the anger of the crowd. NOW maybe I imagined that. Hope this link works.
http://hoganstand.com/Louth/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=160786

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGUJ_TrDvJs

I was at the protest... what happened was that if you wanted to speak from the podium you needed to sign a pledge saying you would do your utmost to keep it open (Ie vote against the cut) the govt people refused to do so, hence were not allowed speak their empty words of hollow promises. O Dowd lost the plot and called the people of Drogheda fascists... no wonder he got (lightly) slapped.

tayto lover

Fenian Army wrote: »

I was at the protest... what happened was that if you wanted to speak from the podium you needed to sign a pledge saying you would do your utmost to keep it open (Ie vote against the cut) the govt people refused to do so, hence were not allowed speak their empty words of hollow promises. O Dowd lost the plot and called the people of Drogheda fascists... no wonder he got (lightly) slapped.

He'll get some kick in the arse next election.

have2flushtwice

Leggo,
it isnt, in the private sector, when things go bad, the salaries are the first thing to be cut. in a company i have worked for, it was announced that there was no rise in salary one particular year, and anyone over 50k woiuld get a 5% cut. it got the company through.
Along with other measures, such as reducing salaries to 100k will make a difference, as will removing the 2300 allowance per seat for "dry cleaning". (claimable whether used or not, as the expenses are unvouched)

the government as a team are not well educated. are we forgetting the report which showed that the dept of finance had very fer accountants two years ago? show me a minister who has a qualifcation in business management? the expected response - his advisors do that. the ultimate decision lies with the particular minister.
as for being snapped up, what planet are you on?!
who is going to employ somoone who comes from a pool which will not submit expeses, who cannot enforce dress code, and who wont sign in for work? these people are unemployable in the real world.
i will agree the system is the way it is, and FG have been voted in because of lack of an alternative.

leggo wrote: »

I hate when people call for TDs' salaries to be reduced. It's such a distraction from the actual problems.

For a start, reducing salaries wouldn't make any particular dent in our sovereign debt or IMF repayments.

Secondly, what's the phrase? If you pay peanuts etc. Do people want govt ministers to work for what? €20k a year? And yet we want well educated, qualified people to run our country. The reality is that if you want them, you need to pay attractive salaries to keep them from being snapped up by the private sector. Whether you feel these people are actually qualified for the job or not isn't relevant, that's why the system is the way it is.

ednwireland

leggo wrote: »

I hate when people call for TDs' salaries to be reduced. It's such a distraction from the actual problems.

For a start, reducing salaries wouldn't make any particular dent in our sovereign debt or IMF repayments.

Secondly, what's the phrase? If you pay peanuts etc. Do people want govt ministers to work for what? €20k a year? And yet we want well educated, qualified people to run our country. The reality is that if you want them, you need to pay attractive salaries to keep them from being snapped up by the private sector. Whether you feel these people are actually qualified for the job or not isn't relevant, that's why the system is the way it is.

i hate it when people say it wouldnt make a difference when it would,you start at the top (it sets an example dont you know). course the taosaichs 200k salary should be cut, he should never have broken his self imposed salary cap for advisors either.
but no, lets attack front line services (cos doing thats making such a difference to the budget deficit eh)
could start by cutting through the huge swathes of middle management in councils and civil service for a start. how about receipted expenses.

anyway this lot are hust as devoid of any parctical ability to do anything (apart from maintain there own inflated salaries and expenses)

leggo

If you were to make an objective list of things that would boost the economy, I doubt reducing TDs salaries would be in the Top 100.

But it would probably be one of the top 10 solutions according to public opinion.

Whereas nobody seems to be addressing the fact that we need to attract well educated and qualified people to lead our country. Offer them €30k a year and they'd be better off getting an area manager job with Dunnes.

Do you want your begrudgery-filled bloodlust satiated? Or do you want the country fixed? If it's the latter, then cop on and start using your democratic right to an opinion to push politicians towards workable solutions, and not popular distractions.