Is Wing Tsun an effective Martial Art?

FeckArseInc · 29-08-2012 01:59PM #1

I thought about doing Wing Tsun, but I have mixed ideas.

On the one hand, it specialises specifically on self-defense for street scenarios.

On the other hand, I've heard that it's wrapped too much on traditional moves which are no longer effective.

Craptacular · 29-08-2012 02:14PM

A punch to the face is a traditional move but it's still pretty effective.

Why not try a session and see what you think? These guys have clubs in Dublin City Centre, Blanchardstown, Maynooth, Wexford & Sligo so there may be one near you. http://www.wingtsun.ie

OLDMAN1 · 29-08-2012 02:43PM

FeckArseInc wrote: »

I thought about doing Wing Tsun, but I have mixed ideas.

On the one hand, it specialises specifically on self-defense for street scenarios.

On the other hand, I've heard that it's wrapped too much on traditional moves which are no longer effective.

Yes if it is taught properly, it is also not a self-defense system , although it is marketed as one by a lot of people...

Peetrik · 29-08-2012 03:03PM

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Yes if it is taught properly

I'd go along with that, I only gave it 6 months before moving on as there was no live sparring... just speeded up choreography. Maybe just the place I was training but any videos I've seen with the style pressure tested against other styles or even against itself it turns into a messy brawl with neither side displaying much actual Wing Tsun, which to me speaks volumes.

It can be effective but there are better styles, or at least in my limited experience there are other styles that are trained more effectively.

Lassard · 29-08-2012 05:42PM

Hi Oldman 1,

You said that Wing Tsun " it is also not a self-defense system" ,would you care to expand on this. I always thought of WT as a very stripped-down, "get the job done" type art.

Niall Keane · 29-08-2012 06:12PM

Lassard wrote: »

Hi Oldman 1,

You said that Wing Tsun " it is also not a self-defense system" ,would you care to expand on this. I always thought of WT as a very stripped-down, "get the job done" type art.

Like other kung fu styles it is a "fighting" system.

Of course fighting can be used in self defence. But these days self defence seems to carry the tone of if A does this, you do that. Kung fu is somewhat more subtle than that. And often such systems tend to suggest poking eyes, groin shots etc., suggesting that power and ability is not so important an can be overcome, which Kung fu would not agree with, an old expression:
"One strength/ power defeats ten best techniques"

Also there is the concept of "defence", some suggest this means "only to defend" so disregarding aggressive tactics. This method of reaction only can be dangerous.
Of course as a TCC man, I would suggest that reaction may not be the secondary action, if the attack has been "enticed". But this carries past the current discussion.

Traditionally many kung fu systems talk about 3 timings...

After the fact, where you will be hit etc.
As a technique is applied where the outcome of your counter has a 50/50 chance of success
And "before it lands" , anticipating or enticing CERTAIN actions and to use the classic line:
"he starts first, but I arrive first!"

Most "self defence" systems I've seen demoed seem to be focused in the two low level timings.

Also most "self defence" systems seem opposed to sport fighting, traditionally "lei tai" (Sanshou) is used by kung fu schools to develop good timing, angle and range, useful attributes in fighting, on or off a platform!

bill buchanan · 29-08-2012 06:21PM

Peetrik wrote: »

I'd go along with that, I only gave it 6 months before moving on as there was no live sparring..

I did it overseas where there was live sparring and enjoyed it. But in Dublin there was no live sparring, outwith chi sau, so I gave it up and did kickboxing instead.

OLDMAN1 · 29-08-2012 08:33PM

Lassard wrote: »

Hi Oldman 1,

You said that Wing Tsun " it is also not a self-defense system" ,would you care to expand on this. I always thought of WT as a very stripped-down, "get the job done" type art.

Niall Keane wrote: »

Like other kung fu styles it is a "fighting" system.

Of course fighting can be used in self defence. But these days self defence seems to carry the tone of if A does this, you do that. Kung fu is somewhat more subtle than that. And often such systems tend to suggest poking eyes, groin shots etc., suggesting that power and ability is not so important an can be overcome, which Kung fu would not agree with, an old expression:
"One strength/ power defeats ten best techniques"

Also there is the concept of "defence", some suggest this means "only to defend" so disregarding aggressive tactics. This method of reaction only can be dangerous.
Of course as a TCC man, I would suggest that reaction may not be the secondary action, if the attack has been "enticed". But this carries past the current discussion.

Traditionally many kung fu systems talk about 3 timings...

After the fact, where you will be hit etc.
As a technique is applied where the outcome of your counter has a 50/50 chance of success
And "before it lands" , anticipating or enticing CERTAIN actions and to use the classic line:
"he starts first, but I arrive first!"

Most "self defence" systems I've seen demoed seem to be focused in the two low level timings.

Also most "self defence" systems seem opposed to sport fighting, traditionally "lei tai" (Sanshou) is used by kung fu schools to develop good timing, angle and range, useful attributes in fighting, on or off a platform!

Basically what Niall said, he writes much nicer than i do...

Michael O Leary · 29-08-2012 09:30PM

FeckArseInc wrote: »

I thought about doing Wing Tsun, but I have mixed ideas.

On the one hand, it specialises specifically on self-defense for street scenarios.

On the other hand, I've heard that it's wrapped too much on traditional moves which are no longer effective.

Hi,

I teach Wing Tsun in Blanchardstown and have been studying it since 1993.

When talking about traditional moves which are no longer effective it all depends on how you use the movements. There are many Wing Tsun/Chun clans or linages and we share most of the same movements. However there is a vast difference in how we apply the movements.

When talking about Wing Tsun moves, this is it in a nutshell. We move close to our opponent to limit their ability to punch and kick us. At the same time we launch signature Wing Tsun punches to our opponent which are ideally suited for close range. We also employ Wing Tsun footwork to give more power to our bodymass and therefore our punches.

When punching to our opponents head, the triceps and anterior deltoids are working under concentric tension. If they meet an obsticle such as our opponents hands, they will fold/bend under eccentric tension and when our arms are free and the eccentric tension is released, they spring towards the target again. If they fold one way, we can call this a Bong Sau or a Tan Sau if they fold another way.

Other Wing Chun/Ving Tsun families will actively create the shape of a Bong Sau with the biceps and anterior deltoids under concentric tension which means that the punch is secondary and we feel that this is risky and leaves them open to feints.

So I feel we have to be specific when talking about Wing Tsun, its principles and movements.

You are more than welcome to come down any Tuesday or Saturday for a free first class where along with all beginners you will work on some simple defences against some of the most common attacks you are likely to face and you will work on the idea of eccentric tension which is core to Wing Tsun.

Regards,

Michael
www.wingtsun.ie

Michael O Leary · 03-09-2012 09:25PM

Niall Keane wrote: »

Like other kung fu styles it is a "fighting" system.

Of course fighting can be used in self defence. But these days self defence seems to carry the tone of if A does this, you do that. Kung fu is somewhat more subtle than that. And often such systems tend to suggest poking eyes, groin shots etc., suggesting that power and ability is not so important an can be overcome, which Kung fu would not agree with, an old expression:
"One strength/ power defeats ten best techniques"

Also there is the concept of "defence", some suggest this means "only to defend" so disregarding aggressive tactics. This method of reaction only can be dangerous.
Also most "self defence" systems seem opposed to sport fighting, traditionally "lei tai" (Sanshou) is used by kung fu schools to develop good timing, angle and range, useful attributes in fighting, on or off a platform!

Hi,

Just wanted to follow up on one or two points.

Wing Tsun/Wing Chun/Ving Tsun is of course a fighting system with inter-related principles, mottos and bio-mechanical drills. We do teach techniques but only as examples to show how the principles work.

When we say that Wing Tsun is a self-defence orientated martial art, it does not mean that we teach X response for Y attack or that we focus on defending, it just means that we don't enter competitions. All my students spar and it begins on night one. However the sparring or pressure testing is based upon what would happen outside the ring rather than what happens inside it.

As an aside, I did enter a full contact competition years ago fighting under Sanshou rules. Niall's coach Paul Mitchell was the referee and I was fighting one of Dave Joyce's Thai-Boxers. I won my fight decisively but had no further interest in competing.

Regards,

Michael
www.wingtsun.ie

OLDMAN1 · 03-09-2012 11:27PM

Michael O Leary wrote: »

Hi,

All my students spar and it begins on night one.
www.wingtsun.ie

That's great to hear, are you still part of the EWTO? its not long ago that the EWTO stated on there website that they did not believe in sparing! i was wondering why there were selling mma gloves on there website..i realise that your group is not really into competitions but there's a Wing Chun competition in China at the end of next year run by Yip Chun if your intrested ...

Tony

Michael O Leary · 05-09-2012 08:59PM

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

That's great to hear, are you still part of the EWTO? its not long ago that the EWTO stated on there website that they did not believe in sparing! i was wondering why there were selling mma gloves on there website..i realise that your group is not really into competitions but there's a Wing Chun competition in China at the end of next year run by Yip Chun if your intrested ...

Tony

Hi Tony,

The EWTO doesn't have a problem with sparring. The problem with the word "sparring" is that different people mean different things by it. The EWTO does not agree with the type of sparring where two people attack and defend sequentally in a tit for tat manner as it has little to do with self-defence and Wing Tsun in general.

Wing Tsun is a system and one definition of a system that I like is that it is "an inter-related set of elements viewed as a whole and designed to achieve a set purpose". Wing Tsun's elements are principles, forms, applications, chi-sau, etc. The key thing for these elements to make a system is that they have to be inter-related. Therefore any sparring or pressure testing should have a relationship to the other elements.

The problem with some Wing Tsun/Chun people is that once they start "sparring", all the other elements go out the window. They start bobbing, feinting like a boxer or go hell for leather, trying to hit each other with cheap shots that take no skill but lots of inappropriate strength.

Regards,

Michael
www.wingtsun-blanchardstown.ie

bill buchanan · 05-09-2012 11:43PM

Michael O Leary wrote: »

Hi Tony,

The EWTO doesn't have a problem with sparring. The problem with the word "sparring" is that different people mean different things by it. The EWTO does not agree with the type of sparring where two people attack and defend sequentally in a tit for tat manner as it has little to do with self-defence and Wing Tsun in general.

Wing Tsun is a system and one definition of a system that I like is that it is "an inter-related set of elements viewed as a whole and designed to achieve a set purpose". Wing Tsun's elements are principles, forms, applications, chi-sau, etc. The key thing for these elements to make a system is that they have to be inter-related. Therefore any sparring or pressure testing should have a relationship to the other elements.

The problem with some Wing Tsun/Chun people is that once they start "sparring", all the other elements go out the window. They start bobbing, feinting like a boxer or go hell for leather, trying to hit each other with cheap shots that take no skill but lots of inappropriate strength.

Regards,

Michael
www.wingtsun-blanchardstown.ie

Hi Michael,

What is sparring like in your club? Do the students get in the ring/on the mat and fight?

DannyBoy92 · 06-09-2012 02:04PM

i trained wing tsun for 2 years , and thought it was great , till i went to a mma school and learned it wasnt really worth a lot ,

this is because the martial art training in wing tsun lacks aliveness

look up a vid on youtube called matt thornton aliveness ......if you understand what he says in the video it should be easy for you to make up your mind ,

my advice if u want to learn to fight ...take up boxing or mma or bjj ....something were u will get to put your technique under pressure

Civilian Personal Protection · 06-09-2012 05:03PM

My TKD teacher, who was also my Muay Thai teacher, was also a Shaolin Kung Fu teacher. He refused to teach me Shaolin in 1996 as he said "it is too soft". I know nothing bout it. Only repeating what he said.

A freind of mine is a Wing Chun teacher in the lineage of Ip Man/IP Chun. I wont speak for him directly, but him and I have had lots of chat's about street self defense. He has indicated to me that it isn't easy adapting it for the street. A view i found refreshing, and responsible. He does also learn Muay Thai. I've advised him on lots of occasions that with what he already knows maybe all that is lacking is for him to create the psychological and physiological dramas that are in street combat. Including leading up to the actual physical. not only focusing on the physical = A last stage of street conflict.

Again, i'm not trained in WT, so only got anecdotal view.

warmest wishes

Wayne

OLDMAN1 · 06-09-2012 08:25PM

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

A freind of mine is a Wing Chun teacher in the lineage of Ip Man/IP Chun. I wont speak for him directly, but him and I have had lots of chat's about street self defense. He has indicated to me that it isn't easy adapting it for the street.
Wayne

He's wrong, it's as good as anything else that people are SELLING...

Michael O Leary · 08-09-2012 08:54AM

bill buchanan wrote: »

Hi Michael,

What is sparring like in your club? Do the students get in the ring/on the mat and fight?

Hi Bill,

We start by pressure testing one technique, for example against a left lead punch. We drill the technique and increase the pressure until the opponent is pretty much going 100% with the attack and the role of the Wing Tsun student is to counter with minimum percieved effort. Then we do the same with another technique, for example a right rear punch and drill until about 100% intensity. Then the opponent will launch either punch and the Wing Tsun student has to chose between two variables and we start this on day one. This usually causes the new student to tense up so we lower the intensity to a manageable level and then increase it as they become more proficient. Then we add other attacks into the mix gradually. The Wing Tsun student holds back once contact is made however in order to practise their striking power, they will also hit pads.

Then they also pressure test Wing Tsun against Wing Tsun and this gives them the opportunity to sharpen their chi-sau reflexes so that it easier when with a non-Wing Tsun opponent. We then divide the two partners into Wing Tsun and non-Wing Tsun roles and this time when the Wing Tsun student counters, rather than playing dead the non-Wing Tsun opponent will continue to launch attacks which the Wing Tsun student must learn how to counter at a much closer range.

This is a brief overview of how we pressure test and I have noticed a big difference between those Wing Tsun students who do this exercise and Wing Tsun/Chun students from other schools/organisations who don't do it.

Regards,

Michael
www.wingtsun-blanchardstown.ie

Civilian Personal Protection · 11-09-2012 08:04PM

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

He's wrong, it's as good as anything else that people are SELLING...

He's 'wrong'? I'm pretty certain his opinion is right, to him and his experience. I dunno maybe he's actually tried to use it in a street brawl or something, and got his C*** knocked in.

Anyhow, what is the litmus test for wing chun being effective on the streets in Ireland over the last decade?

And in that quantitative testing, what conditions/variables are present for the 1000's that exist in street combat? Surely people are not that foolish, in that they believe one little bitch-slapping in a housing estate constitutes 'street-effective'.

warmest wishes

Wayne

crosstrainer1 · 11-09-2012 10:52PM

Ive trained with Thomas Lamount in lisburn who is in my opion the best wing tsun instructor in ireland , and as hes an ex world cage fighting champion and has used wing chun in the enviroment hes the man to ask

Peetrik · 11-09-2012 11:04PM

This Thomas Lamount?

Doesn't use any Wing Chun I can see... unless this was before he took it up?

Civilian Personal Protection · 12-09-2012 08:47AM

I had some private tuition from Tom back in 2000, when he was UK number 1 full contact fighter. Met him again some years later. Chum sut ain't wing tsun. It's Chum sut. But i get you're point.

So, cos Tom has a background in WT and then created his own style - chum sut, and Tom was a Vale Tudo world champ in Brazil, that somehow implies WT is applicable to the street?

How does that work?

Peetrik, that's Tom in the video yeah. and he was teaching chum sut at that time. Cos i trained with him in Chum Sut few years before that.

CS has a foundation of WT, but also uses fillipino and ground stuff from other systems, btw crosstrainer1.

To be proven in any combat arena the combat must take part in THAT arena. ALL the time. Peolple assume that because Tom can handle himself, and has a background in WT then he must:

1. Use it in the street
2. Not have any other tools.

People forget that all, in fact, few, are at Tom's level. If tom is able to use any martial art for the street, it may be because he has also had the experience of the street. And i dont mean walking up it to go to the shop. It is quite acceptable, and i can quote many serious dan grade martial artists, that the more they are exposed to real world violence, the more they see what would work and what wouldn't. To say or imply one traditional system is street-effective is imo, a fallacy. Bit's may or may not work.

Peetrik pointed out something in that fight clip. And i havn't watched it proper, so i'm genuinely asking, what WT is being used, if any? In the safety of a fight with rules.

Actually, let me put it like this. Fighting based on rules, in safety, where folks taake their time over rounds, and get rested, etc, is not street violence. Hopefully that is agreeable. So.. how popular is WT in the safe, rule based fights? UFC, K1, Vale Tudo, etc? I ai9n't done the research on it, but if it isn't popular, or if it fails in rule based contests, then it is an indication of potential weaknesses. The more right throughout that WT fails to make it's mark, the more it might indicate systematic issues.

Before anyone get's their knickers in a twist, i ain't anti-Wt. I ain't anti anything. But when we are talking about peoples lives, as we are on the street, and Ireland, if not the world are watching the forums looking advise. It falls to us to be upfront and honest. About what is proven.

warmest wishes

Wayne

Peetrik · 12-09-2012 09:43AM

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

Actually, let me put it like this. Fighting based on rules, in safety, where folks taake their time over rounds, and get rested, etc, is not street violence. Hopefully that is agreeable.

If something works (causes damage) in a ring/cage against a fully resisting trained athlete then you can be pretty sure it will work on 'the street'. Personally I would be way more suspect of techniques that have only ever worked on drunk people or unfit people who have never trained a day in their life.
Dismissing martial arts that compete as being 'not street effective' because there are rules involved is on par with dismissing cars as a form of transport because some people race in cars on a track with rules in safety.
The whole original idea of competition was to find out whose techniques actually work.

Niall Keane · 12-09-2012 09:51AM

It is fairly well known that in Hong Kong many WT schools (and other kung fu schools) are recruiting grounds for Triads.
In fact the Triads sprang from martial art patriotic societies.
They do tend to like their hatchets and machetes, to deal out that "death by a thousand cuts"!
I guess some WT lads must be very well versed in "the streets"?

Fighting looks like fighting always! Styles simply are strategic and tactical peculiarities and training regimes that go along with them. Some training methods may look strange, and strangely some people expect a direct translation of skill training methods into live combat.

One would expect a western boxer to have good footwork in an encounter, but hardly to bring along his skipping rope and hop up and down on the one spot to "make it" boxing!

Niall Keane · 12-09-2012 09:58AM

"Dismissing martial arts that compete as being 'not street effective' because there are rules involved is on par with dismissing cars as a form of transport because some people race in cars on a track with rules in safety."

Exactly! And I'd expect a sports rally driver would make a pretty good "get away" driver if so inclined!

Civilian Personal Protection · 12-09-2012 10:41AM

Peetrik wrote: »

If something works (causes damage) in a ring/cage against a fully resisting trained athlete then you can be pretty sure it will work on 'the street'.

Causes what kind of damage? The street ain't a safe place where the fight is paced out over rounds. The victim hasn't got the luxury of mentally preparing themselves for a fight. Hasn't got the luxury of being against one opponent of similar weight, and same sex. Gimme a break.. Lol!

This is about being set upon from behind at the kebab shop. Getting a bottle in the face or neck. biting like a rabid dog on someones throat. ending the confrontation within seconds.

i'll give another example of how street personal protection is vastly different from the ring. Renzo Gracie. Look at his recent exploits he talked bout on twitter. Those martial artists who know nothing about street self defence thought what eh done was great. The people who actually know about street self defence all agree he is a prat. There is a huge discrepancy.

Of course, all the talk here is about fighting. Fighting is merely one of the stages of street combat. One of the last stages.

Peetrik wrote: »

Dismissing martial arts that compete as being 'not street effective' because there are rules involved is on par with dismissing cars as a form of transport because some people race in cars on a track with rules in safety.
The whole original idea of competition was to find out whose techniques actually work.

Analogies sound lovely but are useless when it is facts that are required.

Did i dismiss martial arts as not being effective? I missed that. Do i need to once again quote myself! I've said on this forum that all training is applicable, i said in this months edition of Irish Fighters the same thing. It has to be applied, as in trained in the right manner.

warmest wishes

Wayne

Niall Keane · 12-09-2012 11:47AM

Just because a school competes does not mean its all they do!

However it's hard once your eyes have been opened on the Lei tai, ring or cage to see people who don't compete any differently than this boxing coach does:

http://vimeo.com/m/42209600

It's not just "experiencing violence", though its a damn better way than running through a gauntlet of shouting shoving class mates or playibg with toy weapons, but it develops far more self awareness and peripheral and envirnomental awareness as where you're blind or move bad you get punished. Also you learn how to receive force, and to dish it out, the intensity of a fighters training means he's travelling 100 miles a day in his martial development for every mile the player is.

Yesterday on 2fm there was some joker saying how a 24 hour course in krav maga would bring someone up to navy seal standard. And that fittness didn't matter.
I guess this type of stuff harms any credibility "street self defence systems" could have. Avoidance of trouble is of course best but really that kind of awareness / posturing / common sense is like learning the safe cross code. Like if I couldn't swim and wanted to learn and most of the course was based around being careful near water, and included some safe paddling I'd not be impressed!

Also I've noticed over the years that although such systems are great at pointing out te flaws of other styles and how "unrealistic" they are they have never posted up a demo of how they train for adrenal stress in a realistic manner. I've seen plenty of shouting and flailing and kicks at te balls aimed to miss - supposed to stop a determined attacker, but no drills with explanations of te training aim with evidence based results.

I guess this lack of transparency bothers me, I know they got to "sell" something, but when you look at styles that also compete as part of their syllabus you can find their training drills, their fight footage, it's all out in the open, because they know that the only secret is practice, and most people are too lazy!

Peetrik · 12-09-2012 12:00PM

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

The street ain't a safe place where the fight is paced out over rounds.

People who train effectively have vastly better cardio than people who don't train, to even make this point shows a large gap in your knowledge.

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

The victim hasn't got the luxury of mentally preparing themselves for a fight.

The whole point of training full contact and regular heavy sparring is to mentally prepare yourself not go to pieces after being hit hard.

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

Hasn't got the luxury of being against one opponent of similar weight, and same sex. Gimme a break.. Lol!

So what? The whole point of training technique is to close the advantage gap over someone who is bigger/stronger than you.
Being matched by weight just ensures that your techniques aren't only working because you are bigger. They work because they are effective.

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

Getting a bottle in the face or neck. biting like a rabid dog on someones throat. ending the confrontation within seconds.

Ah get real, no way you are actually trying to glass each other full contact each training session. If you don't train it each week then you have no idea if it will work in a fight.
At best you practise slow motion, stopping just before the biting or whatever with both parties 'agreeing to these rules of no one actually getting bitten or stabbed so that its safe. How is that any different from the ring rules you disparage?

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

Analogies sound lovely but are useless when it is facts that are required.

What facts? Facts about what?

Doug Cartel · 12-09-2012 12:19PM

Niall Keane wrote: »

Yesterday on 2fm there was some joker saying how a 24 hour course in krav maga would bring someone up to navy seal standard.

Ah, but who said Navy Seal standard is a high standard?

Peetrik · 12-09-2012 12:52PM

Niall Keane wrote: »

Also I've noticed over the years that although such systems are great at pointing out te flaws of other styles and how "unrealistic" they are they have never posted up a demo of how they train for adrenal stress in a realistic manner.

Open to being corrected but I think this might be Civilian Personal Protections demo

RainMaker · 12-09-2012 01:26PM

Peetrik wrote: »

Open to being corrected but I think this might be Civilian Personal Protections demo

Looks quite Krav Maga-ish...

Damo W · 12-09-2012 02:30PM

Niall Keane wrote: »

Yesterday on 2fm there was some joker saying how a 24 hour course in krav maga would bring someone up to navy seal standard. And that fittness didn't matter.

'Colm Hayes' show on 2FM and while it was only on the the background, I believe they ran some sort of competition for a place on the course. I think you had to ring in and tell why you needed it.
Good publicity...

Is Wing Tsun an effective Martial Art?

Comments