2013 budget preliminaries

Nody · 25-08-2012 09:36AM #1

All the usual suspects appear to be going in for 2013 as per this article in yet another nip and tuck style budget.

Less tax relief(s)
Moving the tax bands downwards
Higher motor tax
Higher alcohol & duty tax
Reduction (in unspecified ways) to the social expenditure bill (I guess those below 25 will get another hit with a minor touch for the rest)
Minor cuts to pensions/elder benefits
Increase in VAT

Am I the only one depressed to still, four years in, still not see some politician with big enough balls to actually take decisive action? I'd welcome SF if for nothing else that someone will actually (hopefully?) take some decisive action and show they are brave enough to lead rather then plodding along as nothing has happened.

sarumite · 25-08-2012 10:27AM

Nody wrote: »

All the usual suspects appear to be going in for 2013 as per this article in yet another nip and tuck style budget.
Less tax relief(s)

Moving the tax bands downwards

Higher motor tax

Higher alcohol & duty tax

Reduction (in unspecified ways) to the social expenditure bill (I guess those below 25 will get another hit with a minor touch for the rest)

Minor cuts to pensions/elder benefits

Increase in VAT

Am I the only one depressed to still, four years in, still not see some politician with big enough balls to actually take decisive action? I'd welcome SF if for nothing else that someone will actually (hopefully?) take some decisive action and show they are brave enough to lead rather then plodding along as nothing has happened.

Ah, but you see SF's economic policies are based on the reality that they won't actually have to make decisive action or lead. They know that they won't be in government so they can design their economic policies to sounds appealing without actually having to work.

Farmer Pudsey · 25-08-2012 11:59AM

Nody wrote: »

All the usual suspects appear to be going in for 2013 as per this article in yet another nip and tuck style budget.
Less tax relief(s)

Moving the tax bands downwards

Higher motor tax

Higher alcohol & duty tax

Reduction (in unspecified ways) to the social expenditure bill (I guess those below 25 will get another hit with a minor touch for the rest)

Minor cuts to pensions/elder benefits

Increase in VAT

Am I the only one depressed to still, four years in, still not see some politician with big enough balls to actually take decisive action? I'd welcome SF if for nothing else that someone will actually (hopefully?) take some decisive action and show they are brave enough to lead rather then plodding along as nothing has happened.

Yes you are right you can add
increased property tax
Increased college fees
water rates
Generally anything that effects workers of your above there will harly be any increase in Vat as it got hammered last year, little or no extra tax on alachol oe cigs effects the unemployed the most no reduvtion on welfare and no reduction on PS wage rates even though they are one of the highest in Europe.

Tax the private sector out of existance.

ParkRunner · 25-08-2012 12:01PM

Nody wrote: »

All the usual suspects appear to be going in for 2013 as per this article in yet another nip and tuck style budget.
Less tax relief(s)

Moving the tax bands downwards

Higher motor tax

Higher alcohol & duty tax

Reduction (in unspecified ways) to the social expenditure bill (I guess those below 25 will get another hit with a minor touch for the rest)

Minor cuts to pensions/elder benefits

Increase in VAT

Am I the only one depressed to still, four years in, still not see some politician with big enough balls to actually take decisive action? I'd welcome SF if for nothing else that someone will actually (hopefully?) take some decisive action and show they are brave enough to lead rather then plodding along as nothing has happened.

What brave decisive action do you mean?

Nody · 25-08-2012 12:20PM

EF wrote: »

What brave decisive action do you mean?

Restructure the whole social welfare payment and front loading benefits (making benefits go down the longer you stay on but give you more up front to give you a good cushion at the start to get into a new job rather then waiting), doing a proper restructure of HSE services, actually challenging every quango to see where the double work is done and stream line it, give proper incentives and benefit for people starting up their own companies (instead of kicking on them by denying them social benefits), to step up and say I'm cutting every salary above 100k by 25% and my own and my governments by 30% and all benefits by 50% (i.e. leading by example).

I could go on but actually trying to fix some of the root issues instead of cutting a bit on the top at the same corners they have been cutting in for the last four years.

Welease · 25-08-2012 12:27PM

Nody wrote: »

Restructure the whole social welfare payment and front loading benefits (making benefits go down the longer you stay on but give you more up front to give you a good cushion at the start to get into a new job rather then waiting), doing a proper restructure of HSE services, actually challenging every quango to see where the double work is done and stream line it, give proper incentives and benefit for people starting up their own companies (instead of kicking on them by denying them social benefits), to step up and say I'm cutting every salary above 100k by 25% and my own and my governments by 30% and all benefits by 50% (i.e. leading by example).

I could go on but actually trying to fix some of the root issues instead of cutting a bit on the top at the same corners they have been cutting in for the last four years.

The problem is.. that would guarantee you a massacre at the next election. Whereas saying you will keep SW benefits, Elderly benefits, Hit the banks/rich etc.. and keep taxes the same will guarantee you votes..

Turkey's wont vote for xmas.. and who can blame them.. If they did what we need done, they will be out of a job..

ParkRunner · 25-08-2012 01:50PM

Welease wrote: »

Nody wrote: »

Restructure the whole social welfare payment and front loading benefits (making benefits go down the longer you stay on but give you more up front to give you a good cushion at the start to get into a new job rather then waiting), doing a proper restructure of HSE services, actually challenging every quango to see where the double work is done and stream line it, give proper incentives and benefit for people starting up their own companies (instead of kicking on them by denying them social benefits), to step up and say I'm cutting every salary above 100k by 25% and my own and my governments by 30% and all benefits by 50% (i.e. leading by example).

I could go on but actually trying to fix some of the root issues instead of cutting a bit on the top at the same corners they have been cutting in for the last four years.

The problem is.. that would guarantee you a massacre at the next election. Whereas saying you will keep SW benefits, Elderly benefits, Hit the banks/rich etc.. and keep taxes the same will guarantee you votes..

Turkey's wont vote for xmas.. and who can blame them.. If they did what we need done, they will be out of a job..

True that! Perhaps the budget should be the responsibility of an independent body or representatives from each political party regardless of who is in government. The current system is putting huge debts onto the country just to try to win elections

paddy147 · 25-08-2012 03:43PM

Lets fcuk up the domestic economy more and more and more,but lets keep on paying the german bondholders.

Oh wait,we actually dont legally need to pay them,we were forced to do so by the ECB.......

Colm McCarthy digs up the truth on the ECB and front bench minister Pat Rabbit finally admits the truth too........

http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/41/52207/1/Tonight-with-Vincent-Browne

PS-I wonder will Kenny and Noonan now finally stand up to the ECB and Germany,or will they still suck up to them both.

liammur · 25-08-2012 03:46PM

sarumite wrote: »

Ah, but you see SF's economic policies are based on the reality that they won't actually have to make decisive action or lead. They know that they won't be in government so they can design their economic policies to sounds appealing without actually having to work.

Exactly, these SF crowd are so out of touch it's almost unreal. Austerity is the only game in town for the next 15 years.

paddy147 · 25-08-2012 03:48PM

liammur wrote: »

Exactly, these SF crowd are so out of touch it's almost unreal. Austerity is the only game in town for the next 15 years.

Eh no its not..not with France and soon to be Holand too.

Both have now realized that Austerity is not the way forwrd.

liammur · 25-08-2012 03:57PM

paddy147 wrote: »

Eh no its not..not with France and soon to be Holand too.

Both have now realized that Austerity is not the way forwrd.

You are coming at this from completely the wrong angles.

1. Holland don't want austerity, not because their economy is in turmoil, but because they are paying for the PIIGS. In other words, they don't want to be taking other's debts on.

2. France wants growth measures put in place, to try and get some money back. But they still side with the fiscally prudent Germans.

rainbowdash · 25-08-2012 04:05PM

Agree 100% that welfare should be front loaded, the more you pay in while working the more you get back the day you lose your job, the longer you are on the dole the less you get.

Give credits for people who go on FAS courses, go back to college, take short term contracts etc. This will silence the "you are hurting the poorest in society" brigade, if credits are given for course and enough places available there will be no hiding place.

Ditto illness benefit, just because somebody is suffering from depression for example, does not prevent them from going on a FAS course or community employment scheme.

Public sector pensions should be capped at say 2 x the basic state pension, after that pay your own contributions like the private sector.

At least Lenny started cutting hard when the going got tough, unlike FG and LAB who seem to be trying to appease everybody.

Bullseye1 · 25-08-2012 04:06PM

Trying to finish off the domestic economy.

liammur · 25-08-2012 04:09PM

rainbowdash wrote: »

Agree 100% that welfare should be front loaded, the more you pay in while working the more you get back the day you lose your job, the longer you are on the dole the less you get.

Give credits for people who go on FAS courses, go back to college, take short term contracts etc. This will silence the "you are hurting the poorest in society" brigade, if credits are given for course and enough places available there will be no hiding place.

Ditto illness benefit, just because somebody is suffering from depression for example, does not prevent them from going on a FAS course or community employment scheme.

Public sector pensions should be capped at say 2 x the basic state pension, after that pay your own contributions like the private sector.

At least Lenny started cutting hard when the going got tough, unlike FG and LAB who seem to be trying to appease everybody.

That's news to me. He gave high payed civil serveants pay rises, levied the blind and the deaf.

I do agree with everything else you've said.

rainbowdash · 25-08-2012 04:16PM

liammur wrote: »

That's news to me. He gave high payed civil serveants pay rises, levied the blind and the deaf.

I do agree with everything else you've said.

Welfare rates were cut, as was public sector pay and income tax levies slapped on everybody upto 6% for high earners.

The welfare rate for a family of 4 was cut by something like €30 per week and the bonus week at Christmas abolished.

Do you remember the emergency budgets?

liammur · 25-08-2012 04:20PM

rainbowdash wrote: »

Welfare rates were cut, as was public sector pay and income tax levies slapped on everybody upto 6% for high earners.

The welfare rate for a family of 4 was cut by something like €30 per week and the bonus week at Christmas abolished.

Do you remember the emergency budgets?

We need to get real here, these need to be slashed. We need a dose of realism in this country, taking €4/5 off the dole doesn't constitute getting tough, when the country was leaking €18bln a year. How many pensions does bertie ahern have? were the touched?

paddy147 · 25-08-2012 04:21PM

Can we cut FG advisor salaries aswell??

Instead of giving them all 3k salary increases,ontop of their 127k salaries (which broke the 98k pay cap deal)

The goverment could and should lead by example.......

Bannasidhe · 25-08-2012 04:25PM

rainbowdash wrote: »

Agree 100% that welfare should be front loaded, the more you pay in while working the more you get back the day you lose your job, the longer you are on the dole the less you get.

Give credits for people who go on FAS courses, go back to college, take short term contracts etc. This will silence the "you are hurting the poorest in society" brigade, if credits are given for course and enough places available there will be no hiding place.

Ditto illness benefit, just because somebody is suffering from depression for example, does not prevent them from going on a FAS course or community employment scheme.

Public sector pensions should be capped at say 2 x the basic state pension, after that pay your own contributions like the private sector.

At least Lenny started cutting hard when the going got tough, unlike FG and LAB who seem to be trying to appease everybody.

All very well and good - but what happens to those who lost well paid jobs but received the same SW as everyone else - will their front loading be backdated to reflect the contributions the paid or will their rates just be cut if they haven't managed to secure employment?

My sister began work in 1977, up until 2 1/2 years ago she was unemployed in that time for a total of 3 weeks in the mid 80s. She had a very highly paid job in the construction sector since 1990 - her boss went bankrupt in 2009. She claimed JSB part-time for a year while working part-time. Her JSB has now run out and she is claiming JSA but still working one day a week - her hours were cut back. There are many people like her - should her money be cut?

What about people who already have degrees up to and including post-graduate. College is not an option for them unless they can pay fees? They will also not get any form of grant of BTEA.

I know of 7 people with PhD's, funded by the Irish taxpayer, who cannot get jobs in Ireland - all of them are looking to emigrate. Do we fund more people to get university qualifications so they can also emigrate?
This doesn't even take into consideration the fact that our 3rd level institutions are so chronically underfunded that they are on the point of collapse. I know - I work in an Irish university and we can't even afford photocopies any more.

FÁS courses are a joke and everyone know it.

Take a short-term contract and then when it ends wait up to 15 weeks for your 'repeat' claim to be processed?
What do people live on in the mean-time?

Bullseye1 · 25-08-2012 04:28PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I know of 7 people with PhD's, funded by the Irish taxpayer, who cannot get jobs in Ireland - all of them are looking to emigrate. Do we fund more people to get university qualifications so they can also emigrate?
This doesn't even take into consideration the fact that our 3rd level institutions are so chronically underfunded that they are on the point of collapse. I know - I work in an Irish university and we can't even afford photocopies any more.

I'm all for people getting PhD's etc but if its not going to benefit our economy they should not be funded by the taxpayer and now they are leaving the island with their qualifications and basically giving the tax payer the two fingers. nice.

liammur · 25-08-2012 04:28PM

paddy147 wrote: »

Can we cut FG advisor salaries aswell??

Instead of giving them all 3k salary increases,ontop of their 127k salaries (which broke the 98k pay cap deal)

The goverment could and should lead by example.......

How about we just cut the advisors altogether. And about 100 quangos such as the bertie bowl quango, because I for one can't see any value being added.

paddy147 · 25-08-2012 04:30PM

liammur wrote: »

How about we just cut the advisors altogether. And about 100 quangos such as the bertie bowl quango, because I for one can't see any value being added.

Yep,get rid of them all.

Bannasidhe · 25-08-2012 04:43PM

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I'm all for people getting PhD's etc but if its not going to benefit our economy they should not be funded by the taxpayer and now they are leaving the island with their qualifications and basically giving the tax payer the two fingers. nice.

The situation as it now stands is that while it may be possible to get fees paid for post-grad there is no form of financial support (grant/BTEA) available so people have to work (lack of part-time jobs being an issue here) - this used to be manageable when universities could afford to pay post-grads to work as tutors but is now pretty much impossible.
Only those doing the H.Dip can get BTEA - but there is a job freeze so few secondary school positions are available.

Do you think these people want to leave? They have no choice. One of them is a woman in her 50s with 3 adult children and grand-children- do you think she wants to up sticks and go work in some US college so she can stick up two fingers up at the Irish taxpayer? No - she wants to be an Irish taxpayer paying tax in Ireland.

The situation now is that people will be funded to get their primary degree and that's it. They will then be looking at a job market that averages 26 applicants for every position or they will emigrate.

Sending people to college (and I am all for education) or on useless FÁS is not going to help - it's just more kicking the can down the road.

We need jobs - not internships, not degrees for the sake of getting a degree not a FÁS course on some outdated piece of software. JOBS.

hmmm · 25-08-2012 04:46PM

FG would do well to remember that they were elected on a platform of 2:1 cuts to new taxes. I'd prefer to see them walk rather than kowtow to Labour on this.

liammur · 25-08-2012 04:46PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The situation as it now stands is that while it may be possible to get fees paid for post-grad there is no form of financial support (grant/BTEA) available so people have to work (lack of part-time jobs being an issue here) - this used to be manageable when universities could afford to pay post-grads to work as tutors but is now pretty much impossible.
Only those doing the H.Dip can get BTEA - but there is a job freeze so few secondary school positions are available.

Do you think these people want to leave? They have no choice. One of them is a woman in her 50s with 3 adult children and grand-children- do you think she wants to up sticks and go work in some US college so she can stick up two fingers up at the Irish taxpayer? No - she wants to be an Irish taxpayer paying tax in Ireland.

The situation now is that people will be funded to get their primary degree and that's it. They will then be looking at a job market that averages 26 applicants for every position or they will emigrate.

Sending people to college (and I am all for education) or on useless FÁS is not going to help - it's just more kicking the can down the road.

We need jobs - not internships, not degrees for the sake of getting a degree not a FÁS course on some outdated piece of software. JOBS.

Fas should be shut down, complete waste of money.

Jobs,,,that's where the real problem lies, because most economies are now needing jobs. The US unemployment of over 8%

Bullseye1 · 25-08-2012 04:46PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you think these people want to leave? They have no choice. One of them is a woman in her 50s with 3 adult children and grand-children- do you think she wants to up sticks and go work in some US college so she can stick up two fingers up at the Irish taxpayer? No - she wants to be an Irish taxpayer paying tax in Ireland.

Has the woman ever worked or has she always been in collage?

paddy147 · 25-08-2012 04:48PM

hmmm wrote: »

FG would do well to remember that they were elected on a platform of 2:1 cuts to new taxes. I'd prefer to see them walk rather than kowtow to Labour on this.

Id say that it will be Labour who walks out 1st.

The unions still do have alot of pulling power over Eamon Gillmore.

25-08-2012 04:51PM

rainbowdash wrote: »

Agree 100% that welfare should be front loaded, the more you pay in while working the more you get back the day you lose your job, the longer you are on the dole the less you get.

I wish people would stop with that. In a boom, sure, it makes sense, but at the moment there are no jobs for people to go to.

You'd be just taking money from them on a gradual scale knowing that they won't find any employment.

(that said, I am in favour of community employment and the likes. Keep your Welfare at the highest rate if you work, say 20 hours a week for the local council or such, doing jobs they can no longer afford to do themselves without outside help).

liammur · 25-08-2012 04:52PM

hmmm wrote: »

FG would do well to remember that they were elected on a platform of 2:1 cuts to new taxes. I'd prefer to see them walk rather than kowtow to Labour on this.

For the good of the country that is not an option.

Bannasidhe · 25-08-2012 04:54PM

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Has the woman ever worked or has she always been in collage?

Ran her own very successful business for 25 years. It was wound up as part of her divorce settlement as her ex-husband claimed half of it and forced the sale. She also worked at least 20 hours a week all through university - paying tax and PRSI.

Given that I said she is in her 50s - how long do you think it takes to get a PhD?

hmmm · 25-08-2012 05:09PM

liammur wrote: »

For the good of the country that is not an option.

The "good of the country" is to cut back our deficit to manageable levels - all sensible parties agree on this.

What is up for discussion is how that is achieved. FG are the largest party and the most important part of their manifesto was clear - it is up to them now to implement this, and if they cannot they should walk rather than implement an alternative.

Bullseye1 · 25-08-2012 05:12PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ran her own very successful business for 25 years. It was wound up as part of her divorce settlement as her ex-husband claimed half of it and forced the sale. She also worked at least 20 hours a week all through university - paying tax and PRSI.

Given that I said she is in her 50s - how long do you think it takes to get a PhD?

I've no idea how long she took but there are professional or maybe a better word be life-long students who love nothing more than accumulating PhD's and Master Degrees.

2013 budget preliminaries

Comments