Those nuns who ran the Magdelene Laundries...

Mr. Loverman · 22-08-2012 09:53AM

tigger123, can I ask:

Do you think the Magdelene Laundries were wrong?

tigger123 · 22-08-2012 09:55AM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Even though they are the same people who ran the Magdelene Laundries and ran Ruhama concurrently for 7 years?

I am surprised and saddened you have no problem with this.

As another posted said, alot of organisations have links to the Catholic Church, which itself has a questionable past. But ut doesnt follow that the organisation itself isnt doing good work. I'm not saying it is or it isnt, what I'm saying is that you've still yet to post anything which Ruhama has done which you find questionable.

Mr. Loverman · 22-08-2012 09:57AM

tigger123 wrote: »

As another posted said, alot of organisations have links to the Catholic Church, which itself has a questionable past. But ut doesnt follow that the organisation itself isnt doing good work. I'm not saying it is or it isnt, what I'm saying is that you've still yet to post anything which Ruhama has done which you find questionable.

They ran the Magdelene Laundries and Ruhama concurrently.

If you can't see how this means Ruhama is a problematic organisation, I think we need to agree to disagree.

tigger123 · 22-08-2012 10:01AM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

They ran the Magdelene Laundries and Ruhama concurrently.

If you can't see how this means Ruhama is a problematic organisation, I think we need to agree to disagree.

I don't agree to that.

So, do you think Ruhama should be shut down now because of that? Are they not doing good work and helping people now?

getz · 22-08-2012 10:01AM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

The organisation was created to "help" prostitutes but was later expanded to include "promiscuous" women.

Their name, Magdalene, comes from the reformed prostitute Mary Magdalene.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/world/europe/25iht-abuse25.html?_r=4

mary magdalene was never a prostitute ,even the pope has now admitted to this,the kind of children who was put into the laundries,yes they were children, were of under age,some had babies,some were mentally retarted,or too ugly to beautiful ,or even put in by their parent/or courts for being morally promiscuous in the eyes of a catholic run ireland,the survivors of those institutions are still fighting in the courts against ireland and the church,for the years abuse they were put through

liamhana · 22-08-2012 10:04AM

no the religious organizations ran the laundries the voluntary lay board run ruhama. again yes the have a religious past but so do most schools, social work, youth groups etc.

Mr. Loverman · 22-08-2012 10:08AM

I strongly question Ruhama's motivations due to their sordid history; their definition of trafficking is dishonest; their belief that all prostitution is controlled and forced is incorrect; and their inability to provide the Gardai with sufficient evidence for most of their claims makes me doubt their honesty.

I do not believe the Government should provide funding to religious organisations which have a proven history of kidnapping and forced labour, which ironically is what they claim to be defending women from today.

I do not want to get in a debate with you as you have already made your beliefs quite clear.

kunst nugget · 22-08-2012 10:10AM

tigger123 wrote: »

As another posted said, alot of organisations have links to the Catholic Church, which itself has a questionable past. But ut doesnt follow that the organisation itself isnt doing good work. I'm not saying it is or it isnt, what I'm saying is that you've still yet to post anything which Ruhama has done which you find questionable.

I don't think an organisation with a strongly Catholic bias is the best fit when it comes to dealing with prostitutes. I'd prefer that any government money would go to a secular organisation that would take a more pragmatic approach.

It's one thing to say that many organisation might have had a less than ideal past but the fact of the matter is that it is only 16 years since the last laundry closed down and by that time Ruhama had been running for 7 years. I'm sorry but the 2 orders' twisted preconceptions about sexuality are not what is needed in terms of a contemporary evaluation of what needs to done with prostitution.

Mr. Loverman · 22-08-2012 10:10AM

liamhana wrote: »

no the religious organizations ran the laundries the voluntary lay board run ruhama. again yes the have a religious past but so do most schools, social work, youth groups etc.

I'm sorry to say you are incorrect.

http://www.ruhama.ie/page.php?intPageID=4

Ruhama was founded as a joint initiative of the Good Shepherd Sisters and Our Lady of Charity Sisters, both of which had a long history of involvement with marginalised women, including those involved in prostitution.

Their current board of directors also contains members of the Good Shepherd Sisters and Our Lady of Charity Sisters.

They are not a non-religious organisation.

tigger123 · 22-08-2012 10:11AM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I strongly question Ruhama's motivations due to their sordid history; their definition of trafficking is dishonest; their belief that all prostitution is controlled and forced is incorrect; and their inability to provide the Gardai with sufficient evidence for most of their claims makes me doubt their honesty.

I do not believe the Government should provide funding to religious organisations which have a proven history of kidnapping and forced labour, which ironically is what they claim to be defending women from today.

I do not want to get in a debate with you as you have already made your beliefs quite clear.

Why did you start a thread then if you don't want to get into a debate? So people would tell you you're right?

Fuinseog · 22-08-2012 10:14AM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

There are a group of nuns called the Good Shepherd Sisters and Our Lady of Charity Sisters who used to run the Magdelene Laundries and now run an organisation called Ruhama.

For about 7 years they ran both the Magdelene Laundries and Ruhama at the same time.

For those of you who don't know, the Magdelene Laundries were forced labour camps for prostitutes. They have since been closed down but the nuns refuse to accept they did anything wrong and are yet to apologise.

Ruhama is their new organisation for dealing with prostitution. (Obviously they cannot use labour camps anymore as they are outlawed.)

They believe all prostitution is forced prostitution and all foreign prostitutes are trafficked prostitutes.

They run a campaign called www.turnofftheredlight.ie which is in direct conflict with the campaign run by sex workers in Ireland, www.turnoffthebluelight.ie

Due to their history we know these women are "misguided" and we know they unapologetically committed tens of thousands of criminal acts including kidnapping and forced labour, yet for some reason the media continues to publish their stories without asking for evidence or mentioning their history.

For example, RTE currently has this story as one of their headlines: http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0822/prostitution-support-group-sees-cases-increase.html

They claim they helped 200 trafficked women last year. They have made similar claims for many, many years. Yet, there have been hardly any arrests nevermind any convictions.

I understand the media have slow news days and will publish press releases as news, but please, these are the same people who ran the Magdelene Laundries.

The also receive over EUR 700,000 in funding from the government each year.

Does anyone else have a problem with this?

nobody else wants anything to do with prossies as society has labelled them unclean.
I wonder to what extent the nuns are being scapegoated. it was not only prossies in the magdalenes. the families of the girl often brought her there. her own family disowned her and she had no where else to go. If you wish to finger point then do so at Irish society which supported such institutions.

it was also the nuns that ran hospitals in te dazs when hospitals were clean and well run palces.

Mr. Loverman · 22-08-2012 10:15AM

tigger123 wrote: »

Why did you start a thread then if you don't want to get into a debate? So people would tell you you're right?

I said I don't want to get into a debate with you.

You have made your beliefs quite clear.

kunst nugget · 22-08-2012 10:16AM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I'm sorry to say you are incorrect.

http://www.ruhama.ie/page.php?intPageID=4

Ruhama was founded as a joint initiative of the Good Shepherd Sisters and Our Lady of Charity Sisters, both of which had a long history of involvement with marginalised women, including those involved in prostitution.

Their current board of directors also contains members of the Good Shepherd Sisters and Our Lady of Charity Sisters.

They are not a non-religious organisation.

List of Trustees and Board of Directors:
Trustees

Sisters of Our Lady of Charity (O.L.C.)
Good Shepherd Sisters (R.G.S.)

Board of Directors

Chairperson: Ms. Valerie Judge
Company Secretary: Mr. Peter O Neill
Sr. Sheila Murphy, O.L.C.
Sr. Bernadette Mc Nally, R.G.S.
Dr. Mary Scully
Mr Colm O Dwyer
Ms. Catherine Joyce
Sr. Frances Robinson, O.L.C
Ms. Catherine Nolan
Ms. Zuilmah Wallis
Mr John O Reilly

http://www.ruhama.ie/page.php?intPageID=138

Mr. Loverman · 22-08-2012 10:17AM

Fuinseog wrote: »

nobody else wants anything to do with prossies as society has labelled them unclean.

That actually is not true.

There are many NGOs who offer non-judgemental assistance to prostitutes.

I am involved in one. A friend of mine is involved in another.

Ruhama is a different kettle of fish.

tigger123 · 22-08-2012 10:23AM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I said I don't want to get into a debate with you.

You have made your beliefs quite clear.

Bad form dude. I'm engaging on the topic here.

kunst nugget · 22-08-2012 10:28AM

Fuinseog wrote: »

nobody else wants anything to do with prossies as society has labelled them unclean.

And why are they labelled unclean?

Fuinseog wrote: »

I wonder to what extent the nuns are being scapegoated. it was not only prossies in the magdalenes. the families of the girl often brought her there. her own family disowned her and she had no where else to go. If you wish to finger point then do so at Irish society which supported such institutions.

You have got to be kidding me. Have you not read the personal testimonies of the women put into these laundries? Also, if these women, some of whom were the victims of rape, were disowned by their families the reason is because of the fire and brimstone teachings of the Catholic Church in this country.

Fuinseog wrote: »

it was also the nuns that ran hospitals in te dazs when hospitals were clean and well run palces.

I would like to see that backed up with facts, please. Can you let me know what the difference in cleanliness between when the nuns ran them and now? Also, have you a breakdown in terms of infection risks in wards now and then as well?

Mr. Loverman · 22-08-2012 10:28AM

tigger123 wrote: »

Bad form dude. I'm engaging on the topic here.

You have already stated you have no issue with Ruhama being run by the same people who ran the Magdelene Laundries.

Let's not forget these are the same people who believe they did nothing wrong.

I asked you if you agree they did nothing wrong. You chose to ignore this question.

That tells me -- and I am sure most readers here -- everything we need to know about your opinion on this matter.

No further discussion with you is necessary.

tigger123 · 22-08-2012 10:31AM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

You have already stated you have no issue with Ruhama being run by the same people who ran the Magdelene Laundries.

Let's not forget these are the same people who believe they did nothing wrong.

I asked you if you agree they did nothing wrong. You chose to ignore this question.

That tells me -- and I am sure most readers here -- everything we need to know about your opinion on this matter.

No further discussion with you is necessary.

I answered your question, not according to anything you've posted here. I was asking you to back up what you were saying about Ruhama.

Mr. Loverman · 22-08-2012 10:33AM

tigger123 wrote: »

I answered your question, not according to anything you've posted here. I was asking you to back up what you were saying about Ruhama.

Do you think the Magdelene Laundries were wrong?

Jimminy Mc Fukhead · 22-08-2012 10:34AM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

They run a campaign called www.turnofftheredlight.ie which is in direct conflict with the campaign run by sex workers in Ireland,

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Didn't prime time expose the turn off the blue light website as being run by pimps.

Can we clarify - Is this light Red, or is it Blue?

Mr. Loverman · 22-08-2012 10:37AM

Jimminy Mc Fukhead wrote: »

Can we clarify - Is this light Red, or is it Blue?

The red one is by Ruhama, the blue one is by prostitutes and possibly pimps.

kunst nugget · 22-08-2012 10:37AM

Jimminy Mc Fukhead wrote: »

Can we clarify - Is this light Red, or is it Blue?

Turn off the Red Light is the anti-prostitution site
Turn off the Red Light is the pro-prostitution site

kunst nugget · 22-08-2012 10:40AM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

The red one is by Ruhama, the blue one is by prostitutes and possibly pimps.

Tbf, Turn Off the Red Light is made up of a core group from all these organisations:

AkiDwA

Aoibhness Refuge

APT (Act to Prevent Trafficking)

Barnardos

Bray Women’s Refuge

Children’s Rights Alliance

Communications Workers’ Union

Domestic Violence Advocacy Service

Doras Luimni

Dublin Rape Crisis Centre

Focus Ireland

FOF (Feminist Open Forum)

FOMACS (Forum on Migration and Communications)

Freedom From Pornography Campaign

ICTU

Immigrant Council of Ireland

Impact Trade Union

Inchicore Women’s support Group

Irish Country Women’s Association

Irish Feminist Network

Irish Girl Guides

Irish Medical Organisartion

Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation

Labour Party

Macra na Feirme

Men’s Development Network

MRCI

NASC Cork

National Child Protection Training Centre

National Women’s Council of Ireland

One in Four Ireland

Pavee Point Travellers’ Centre

Public Service Executive Union committee

Rape Crisis Network Ireland

Rathmines Women’s Refuge

Religious Sisters of Charity

Ruhama

SAFE Ireland

Saoirse Refuge

SARI

SIPTU

Sligo Rape Crisis Centre

SONAS Housing

Soroptimist International Ireland

Stop Sex Trafficking Cork

TEEU (Technical, Engineering and Electrical Union)

Tirzah Ireland

UNITE

VAW Exhibition 365

Viva House

Women’s Aid

Young Social Innovators Ireland

Fuinseog · 22-08-2012 10:41AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

And why are they labelled unclean?

You have got to be kidding me. Have you not read the personal testimonies of the women put into these laundries? Also, if these women, some of whom were the victims of rape, were disowned by their families the reason is because of the fire and brimstone teachings of the Catholic Church in this country.

I would like to see that backed up with facts, please. Can you let me know what the difference in cleanliness between when the nuns ran them and now? Also, have you a breakdown in terms of infection risks in wards now and then as well?

I also read Cathys story which turned out to be a work of fiction. times were hard back then and folks just got on with things.
prossies are regarded as unclean. who would want one as a neighbour or friend (not friend with benefits)?
those who experienced hospitals under the nuns will tell you they were far better run than secular staff.
their families could have had the balls to stand up to the church. its not as if we were a bunch of thickos back then and are living now in an age of enlightenment. i do not buy the calm the church for all your woes argument.

a lot of people experience bad things in their lives. some get over themselves and others make a career of their suffering and bask in the media limelight.

krudler · 22-08-2012 10:43AM

ROOOXXXXXXXAAANNNNEEEE!

Sorry all this talk of red lights made that stick in my head

subway · 22-08-2012 10:43AM

conspiracy theories ?
humanities ?
but after hours, cmon, wtf?

you've been posting about this for years, do a study or some research, no one involved in supporting the at risk members of our society seems to agree with your ramblings on any level. Ruhama appear to do good work and offer good support, they have a catholic background and an "end prostitution" agenda which they dont particularly hide.

if you're so hell bent against them, ranting on boards is not having much effect, so perhaps a support org that is pro-prostitution to couterpoint them would be a better start. preferably an independent one (not just run by pimps, sex-workers or religious folk), do some research to support the sex industry in ireland, publish it etc.

Mr. Loverman · 22-08-2012 10:45AM

Thanks.

It was originally started by Ruhama and The Immigrant Council of Ireland (who btw use Ruhama's data for their own publications).

subway · 22-08-2012 10:47AM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Thanks.

It was originally started by Ruhama and The Immigrant Council of Ireland (who btw use Ruhama's data for their own publications).

what alternative data is there to support a counterclaim?

subway · 22-08-2012 10:54AM

I'm trying to decipher your position here, this is what I've got so far:

magdalene laundries - bad (I agree)
ruhama - run by people associated with the running of the laundries therefore bad by association (this is where we deviate)

this leads to:
all ruhama data and studies being tainted
therefore any postion ruhama hold on traffcing or prostition is untenable
anyone associated with ruhama or there actions is questionable (many charity organisations, the national broadcaster, etc)

now, we agree on the laundries, but disagree on the rest. ruhama produce reports and data, you produce rhetoric and posts on boards.ie. you are allowing the connection to taint your judgement. provide one counter report that backs up your claims and accusations and i will happily read it.

these claims:

their definition of trafficking is dishonest; their belief that all prostitution is controlled and forced is incorrect; and their inability to provide the Gardai with sufficient evidence for most of their claims makes me doubt their honesty

Cienciano · 22-08-2012 10:58AM

liamhana wrote: »

Ridiculous assumption that there is anything not above board with Ruhama...

fact is most long serving NGOs/Charities in Ireland have some past that involves orphanages/laundries etc Not a 'glorious' past or something to be proud of but Ruhama is a Legit organisation with a board made up of lay people and funded on the basis of work plans/audited accounts etc.

Trying to say they are problematic is like saying we shouldnt support Trocaire or Vincent de Paul who both have their past/present in catholic organisations.

they are only one of the groups that support the turn off the red light project, which is up front and named...the blue light campaign? a piece of pimp led crap. Nearly 100% of prostitution in ireland is pimped and therefore forced....websites are controlled by gangs/pimps and nearly all girls are moved around the place.
Any 'buyer' should be named and shamed.

Don't agree with any of that, and if any police interviews I've seen on the news or documentaries, the garda dont believe it either. Sex trafficing is almost non existing in Ireland.

Those nuns who ran the Magdelene Laundries...

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