Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Gender issues in After Hours - Your feedback requested.

Options
1…1415171920…28

Comments

  • Options
    #482
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    But maybe you can say "let's focus on the women first, because there's a much bigger problem of sexism towards women than towards men" - despite what a certain serial re-registering somebody would have you believe.

    But doesnt that create an issue (or perceived issue) right off the bat of discriminating against men to some degree ? Isnt that what gets peoples backs up on these issues ? Its heading in the direction of female quotas to try and force equality. When all it really does it give women equality at the expense of guys which wont create a culture of equality. I think this is what makes it so hard to really get equality. Women feel discriminated against, and the solution often seems to appear to be to discriminate against men to even things out.

    That whole "its like feminism never happened here" thing is simply absurd. The vast majority of AH users that I have encountered are intelligent people who respect individuals as individuals and dont discriminate on those grounds. But the manner in which people often engage isnt pc.

    But if its an issue for users then it should be dealt with, I dont want to see anyone feel like they are being discriminated against or intimidated. But if discrimination is the problem then deal with discrimination. Dont focus on particular groups just roll it out equally to everyone.


  • Options
    #483
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Brutal Deluxe wrote: »
    I know exactly where you going with that.
    Arguments like this isn't helping.

    Actually you don't.
    All you have done is demonstrate that you also don't know the origin of the word.

    Brutal Deluxe wrote: »
    Look, being a feminist is fine, nobody has issues with that. It's an issue when you come here and try to turn the thread from "sexism in AH" to "protecting the women in AH".

    You are the one who keeps equating it with protectionism.

    Brutal Deluxe wrote: »
    I get that you think AH is worse off for women, fine. But if you ignore the problems on one side of the fence then you're not any different from the people who dismiss you as a femnazi. I'm not saying you are one or anything but the point is, you're acting the same way the men who scream "femnazi/stupid bitch/etc/" at any woman who wants equality.

    I don't ignore sexism which effects men and your strawmanning of this thread is getting tedious.


  • Options
    #484
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,017 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Scioch wrote: »
    But doesnt that create an issue (or perceived issue) right off the bat of discriminating against men to some degree ? Isnt that what gets peoples backs up on these issues ? Its heading in the direction of female quotas to try and force equality. When all it really does it give women equality at the expense of guys which wont create a culture of equality. I think this is what makes it so hard to really get equality. Women feel discriminated against, and the solution often seems to appear to be to discriminate against men to even things out.

    I'm sorry that is absolute nonsense. Sexism is a problem in AH. The problem is predominantly one of sexism against women. Adressing this issue is in no way whatsoever discriminating against men. It is creating a more respectful culture for men and women in AH.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #485
    Tombi!
    Registered Users Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Actually you don't.
    All you have done is demonstrate that you also don't know the origin of the word.




    You are the one who keeps equating it with protectionism.




    I don't ignore sexism which effects men and your strawmanning of this thread is getting tedious.

    Sigh, I think it's just best if you and I don't respond to one another. I think you're using terms that are over the top and acting that way.
    I don't think either of us will see eye to eye, ever. So agree to disagree?


  • Options
    #486
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Scioch wrote: »
    But doesnt that create an issue (or perceived issue) right off the bat of discriminating against men to some degree ?
    Honestly? No. Sexism against women is a bigger problem in AH than sexism against men. As a bigger problem, it more urgently needs to be addressed.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #487
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    mango salsa wrote: »
    I'm sorry that is absolute nonsense. Sexism is a problem in AH. The problem is predominantly one of sexism against women. Adressing this issue is no way whatsoever discriminating against men. It is creating a more respectful culture for men and women in AH.

    It is when you focus on one and ignore the other no matter the big difference in the size of the issue. As I said if you want to tackle discrimination then tackle discrimination. But there is an air of protectionism about this when you allow the non pc, insulting, hostile, discriminatory stuff to continue but say "Hey, women feel intimidated, watch what you say".

    Why isnt it users feel intimidated by hostile, discriminatory posting, watch what you say. ?


  • Options
    #488
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Scioch wrote: »
    But doesnt that create an issue (or perceived issue) right off the bat of discriminating against men to some degree ?

    Surely that would only be the case from those presuming that the status quo is correct and fair? If the aim is to shift the balance from being disproportionately unwelcoming to one gender so that both sexes are able to enjoy the forum equally then I'm not sure how that could be viewed as discriminatory?


  • Options
    #489
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But the fact that it is hyperbole is what frustrates those who are attempting to add to the debate.

    I get that but this was that posters first post to the thread in which they vented their frustration, yes there was hyperbole but instead of seeing they were frustrated they were labeled as hysterical and rounded on.

    Which is part of the reason most people won't post in these feedback threads.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Unfortunately there are people out there whose minds will never be changed and who will never accept that women are equal. There is little we, as posters, can do about their own personal views,what we can do though is make sexism unacceptable on this site, which is the ultimate objective here.

    We are always going to treat men and women differently it's the way of the world all we can do it try and not use those differences to denigrate either gender.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The issue though, is that men don't appear to feel intimidated in After Hours in the same way that women do.

    That I think comes down to numbers and unthinking sexism.


  • Options
    #490
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Honestly? No. Sexism against women is a bigger problem in AH than sexism against men. As a bigger problem, it more urgently needs to be addressed.

    But surely its part of a bigger issue of discrimination as a whole.


  • Options
    #491
    Tombi!
    Registered Users Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    Scioch wrote: »
    It is when you focus on one and ignore the other no matter the big difference in the size of the issue. As I said if you want to tackle discrimination then tackle discrimination. But there is an air of protectionism about this when you allow the non pc, insulting, hostile, discriminatory stuff to continue but say "Hey, women feel intimidated, watch what you say".
    That was my concern too.
    But I feel that it'll never happend and I trust the mods not to let it happen.
    Why isnt it users feel intimidated by hostile, discriminatory posting, watch what you say

    It is that just with sexism. It'll ideally get stopped about men and women but as of now, women are getting it worse so the focus is on them moreso. It's not being dropped though for men.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #492
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Scioch wrote: »
    It is when you focus on one and ignore the other no matter the big difference in the size of the issue.
    I don't think anyone's proposing that we ignore the other.
    Scioch wrote: »
    But surely its part of a bigger issue of discrimination as a whole.
    Yes, it is. And it's the bigger part of that bigger issue, so it would be remiss not to give it the extra attention it deserves.


  • Options
    #493
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    Brutal Deluxe wrote: »
    It is that just with sexism. It'll ideally get stopped about men and women but as of now, women are getting it worse so the focus is on them moreso. It's not being dropped though for men.

    There is no need to focus on them more so because the problem is universal. A fix for one is a fix for all. And sexism comes from discriminatory attitudes in my view, so the fix should be implemented on that level and apply it to everyone and we will all be equally as accountable for what we say no matter who its directed at.


  • Options
    #494
    Tombi!
    Registered Users Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    Scioch wrote: »
    There is no need to focus on them more so because the problem is universal. A fix for one is a fix for all. And sexism comes from discriminatory attitudes in my view, so the fix should be implemented on that level and apply it to everyone and we will all be equally as accountable for what we say no matter who its directed at.

    Yes but when there is more of one part (sexism against women) it should be dealt with and have more focus towards it.


  • Options
    #495
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Kooli wrote: »
    What's wrong with the term rape culture?
    Feminazi is a derogatory term for a feminist, but rape culture is a widely accepted term that is used in academic circles and isn't derogatory about anyone?
    A widely accepted term in very rarified and leftist gender studies circles in US colleges. The same kinda circles where Black studies came up with and rigidly believe in such notions as Cleopatra was black. Outside such circles it's open to serious debate. A debate usually ignored because of it's sacred cow position.

    When it was brought up earlier in the thread(for god knows what reason) and a defintion was posted I went though it point by point and with the exception of one example(which was still highly debatable) there was bugger all evidence of it to be found in After Hours. When examples were requested the paucity of subsequent replies was plain for all to see. Ranged against that are the consistent and pretty long standing actions of the mods of that forum to stamp it out, when it occurs. We've all seen enough mod actions that do so. I saw one this very morning where a couple of yahoo's jumped in early on the engagement ring thread and were snipped by Dr. B. It's not a new thing either.
    And I'm sorry people think my term was sensationalist, but I do find After Hours like a time warp when it comes to issues of gender.
    Actually no I take that back, I'm not really sorry...
    Of course it was sensationalist. "literally like feminism was never invented" is sensationalist and wildly inaccurate to boot, never mind insulting to the vast majority of the folks who post and moderate the After Hour forum. You heard it first folks according to a minority, we're all unthinking anti feminists supporting a rape culture. Jesus.
    I don't see the point of a thread that aims to test the water and see what people's feelings are, if the aim is to argue against people's feelings.
    Sorry I don't understand this at all. I'm afraid that's called discussion. It's a discussion forum.
    Maybe this thread is actually supposed to be a debate where we get to the 'right answer' and reach an 'objective conclusion'?? If so, that's fine but that should have been made more clear and I wouldn't have joined in.
    Why? Because your claims may not stack up? Because it wont be in whatever image of feminism you extol? Yea it's called discussion where everyone gets the chance to put their opinion in and that opinion gets to stand tall or fall flat on it's arse for the benefit of all. Or maybe you'd like some sort of gender sensitive handbook handed down from on high? So long as it agreed with some of course.
    Sharrow wrote: »
    Kooli they just don't get it
    What? Unless this is a quasi religious type debate then the examples you gave either have or do not have any evidence behind them with some grey areas in the middle. So far beyond nebulous hunches and feelings and rhetoric about anti feminist/rape culture the examples given for this in AH are thin on the ground.
    and honestly don't want to be seen to be capitulating by using terms which they consider 'extremist.
    Because it is extremist. It's nothing to do with "capitulating" or any of that. If your evidence stacks up it requires no capitulation, merely agreement and then action to stop it.

    When folks have contributed non histrionic* thoughts on the real silliness and examples of stuff that isn't on, there has been widespread agreement and widespread action has been taken by the AH mods. To be fair to the mods, they'd already got a pretty good handle on most of it to start with.
    There are too many who will nit pick and have knee jerk reactions to certain terms
    and will spend too much time on that.
    If calling AH part of a rape culture and a place where feminism never happened isn't kneejerk I don't know what is.
    The acceptance of the moderate feminist philosophy
    If terms like "rape culture" is a part of the "moderate feminist philosophy" then some rejigging of moderate may be due. Of course it's not part of it for the majority of feminists male or female. Or maybe they "just don't get it"?
    G'em wrote:
    And calling someone hysterical for a comment like that is too far. It's yet another term that's used to put down women in an argument of which there isn't a parallel for men
    It's pretty much used for both these days G. Given the fact that most people, men and women are blissfully unaware of the root of the term, that kinda backs that up. There was a male equivalent, "neurasthenia", basically neurotic, but if you called someone or their argument neurasthenical people would look at you funny. :D

    Don't get me wrong G I have most certainly seen women being put down as hysterical, but equally have seen it used where the person male or female wasn't genderising the term. I've also seen neurotic used on women and that's technically the male term, yet no comment is passed. People are either being dicks or not, the terms used just add to their dickery.





    *no it doesn't have the same root. Comes from the latin for dramatic actor.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Options
    #496
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,017 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Scioch wrote: »
    There is no need to focus on them more so because the problem is universal. A fix for one is a fix for all. And sexism comes from discriminatory attitudes in my view, so the fix should be implemented on that level and apply it to everyone and we will all be equally as accountable for what we say no matter who its directed at.

    The problem of sexism isn't universal.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #497
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    mango salsa wrote: »
    The problem of sexism isn't universal.

    The problem of discrimination is and thats where it all emanates from.


  • Options
    #498
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,017 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Scioch wrote: »
    The problem of discrimination is and thats where it all emanates from.

    In this case the mods want to tackle sexist discrimination. That is not a universal problem.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #499
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    mango salsa wrote: »
    In this case the mods want to tackle sexist discrimination. That is not a universal problem.

    Sexist discrimination in relation to women. Hence my point. Instead of dealing with the problem of discrimination and how it affects users its broken up into sub problems to suit which ever group is most aggrieved at any particular time.

    The problem wont go away no matter how much you pick at it. If you want equality you have to enforce it on a level where it will apply to everyone equally.


  • Options
    #500
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,017 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Scioch wrote: »
    Sexist discrimination in relation to women. Hence my point. Instead of dealing with the problem of discrimination and how it affects users its broken up into sub problems to suit which ever group is most aggrieved at any particular time.

    The problem wont go away no matter how much you pick at it. If you want equality you have to enforce it on a level where it will apply to everyone equally.

    You can't adress the issue of sexism equally if there is clearly an existing massive inequality in the first place. Sexism in AH and in the world in general is predominantly a problem faced by women.
    Scioch wrote: »
    Instead of dealing with the problem of discrimination and how it affects users its broken up into sub problems to suit which ever group is most aggrieved at any particular time.

    This makes no sense whatsoever. Dealing with sexism is actually a part of dealing with discrimination.

    How would you suggest dealing with the problem of discrimination?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #501
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Scioch wrote: »
    Instead of dealing with the problem of discrimination and how it affects users its broken up into sub problems to suit which ever group is most aggrieved at any particular time.
    Yes. As I've explained, that's a fairly standard approach to problem solving: fix the bigger problems, while keeping an eye on the smaller ones to make sure they don't turn into big ones.

    So far, what I'm seeing from you is a criticism of this approach, but not a reasoned criticism. Why would it be better to apply equal weight to what are clearly unequal problems?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #502
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Yes. As I've explained, that's a fairly standard approach to problem solving: fix the bigger problems, while keeping an eye on the smaller ones to make sure they don't turn into big ones.

    So far, what I'm seeing from you is a criticism of this approach, but not a reasoned criticism. Why would it be better to apply equal weight to what are clearly unequal problems?

    I'm not sure your understanding me. I see one main problem that has multiple off shooting problems that affect many users of the forum. That problem is the discriminatory/non pc/dismissive way in which people are allowed to post in AH.

    The sexism towards women I think is an offshoot of that as are many other things which lead to people feeling unwelcome on the forum. I'm saying tackle the main problem, not the biggest problem that arises from it.

    I'm not criticising what your doing I'm just suggesting that tackling the underlying issue (as I see it) might be an approach that would benefit all users. And if equality is what the site wants to achieve I believe that would be a better way to achieve it.


  • Options
    #503
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    mango salsa wrote: »
    This makes no sense whatsoever. Dealing with sexism is actually a part of dealing with discrimination.

    How would you suggest dealing with the problem of discrimination?

    By viewing it as a problem in itself. You tackle all discriminatory posts, not just those that happen to fall into the category of "whats not popular these days".


  • Options
    #504
    Tombi!
    Registered Users Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    Scioch wrote: »
    By viewing it as a problem in itself. You tackle all discriminatory posts, not just those that happen to fall into the category of "whats not popular these days".
    Except we're kinda focused on the issues of sexism at the moment. You tackle one issue at a time.


  • Options
    #505
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    Brutal Deluxe wrote: »
    Except we're kinda focused on the issues of sexism at the moment. You tackle one issue at a time.

    *Bangs head off table*

    Thats what I have been discussing :( I think a solution to the issues of sexism is to tackle the cause of sexism in relation to the forum which I believe to be the common and acceptable discriminatory style of posting.


  • Options
    #506
    Tombi!
    Registered Users Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    Scioch wrote: »
    *Bangs head off table*

    Thats what I have been discussing :( I think a solution to the issues of sexism is to tackle the cause of sexism in relation to the forum which I believe to be the common and acceptable discriminatory style of posting.

    The cause of that is either: dicks being dicks or else ignorance. In either case it's being dealt with.


  • Options
    #507
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Wibbs wrote: »
    A widely accepted term in very rarified and leftist gender studies circles in US colleges.


    That maybe where it started but it is accepted a hell of a lot more widely these days and is the common parlance when talking about the way sexist denigrating comments can add up to the type of attitude which results in 'slut shaming' and victim blaming (targeted at men and women).


  • Options
    #508
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,017 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Scioch wrote: »
    By viewing it as a problem in itself. You tackle all discriminatory posts, not just those that happen to fall into the category of "whats not popular these days".

    I don't necessarily disagree with you but I think its probably easier to tackle issues of discrimination in a piecemeal fashion. If you wanted to tackle all of them you are looking at a massive amount of issues and groups - I mean you could be talking about discrimination on the basis of; sex, gender identity (or lack of), age, race, ethnic minority, nationality, skin colour, travelling community, marital status, civil status, family status, disability, religion (or lack of), socioeconomic status, membership of a trade union, political opinion, philosophical belief

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #509
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Don't get me wrong G I have most certainly seen women being put down as hysterical, but equally have seen it used where the person male or female wasn't genderising the term. I've also seen neurotic used on women and that's technically the male term, yet no comment is passed. People are either being dicks or not, the terms used just add to their dickery.

    Well you learn something new.. :D I didn't know that was a male-originated term at all. If anything I'd associate 'being neurotic' as more of a female term now... but maybe that's just a whole other tin of worms that can wait to be opened...


  • Options
    #510
    Scioch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Scioch


    mango salsa wrote: »
    I think its probably easier to tackle issues of discrimination in a piecemeal fashion. If you wanted to tackle all of them you are looking at a massive amount of issues and groups - I mean you could be talking about discrimination on the basis of; sex, gender identity (or lack of), age, race, ethnic minority, nationality, skin colour, travelling community, marital status, civil status, family status, disability, religion (or lack of), socioeconomic status, membership of a trade union, political opinion, philosophical belief

    But it shouldnt be acceptable to discriminate on any grounds. And how can you deal with it in piecemeal fashion considering how many groups and issues it applies to ? Should one group wait a few years for the site to get around to stopping them being discriminated against ?

    To me we are all users and if a user feels alienated or unwelcome then its the same no matter what form the discrimination takes. Everyone should have equal rights not to feel like that if the cause is always the same.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #511
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,017 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Scioch wrote: »
    But it shouldnt be acceptable to discriminate on any grounds. And how can you deal with it in piecemeal fashion considering how many groups and issues it applies to ? Should one group wait a few years for the site to get around to stopping them being discriminated against ?

    To me we are all users and if a user feels alienated or unwelcome then its the same no matter what form the discrimination takes. Everyone should have equal rights not to feel like that if the cause is always the same.

    I don't disagree with you that discrimination is a problem but you need to be able to identify what the discrimination is, who it's against and why it's discriminatory before you can tackle it. You can't just say lets tackle discrimination without defining it. AH has improved over the years - there is a lot less racism (against ethnic minorities and travellers) and homophobia than previously (presumably because the mods tackled these issues)

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement