Finally theres a move for equality in education!

steddyeddy · 20-08-2012 9:54pm #1

As most of you will have seen Cao points have raised massively this in part is because of the extra points afforded to maths. This has prompted Trinity College Dublin's Dr Patrick Geoghegan to announce the new way Trinity is looking at admissions to Trinity. For years Patrick Geoghegan has maintained that the current system puts the wrong student in the wrong course and that the points system is currently unfair. Coming for the students sitting the leaving cert in 2014 as well as being assessed on their leaving cert results they will also have to submit personal statements regarding their chosen course.

For me the best to come out of this is the consideration of the context of the student. In Patrick Geoghegan’s own words “If a student who got four hundred and fifty points, where they were top of their class and the school didn’t have a tradition of sending people to college. Then that would be a greater more significant achievement than a student from an elite fee paying school who got over 500 points.” The playing field will hopefully be well and truly evened.

To me this is an absolutely brilliant move. It’s how they admit students in other universities around the world. I’m a UCD student not a Trinity one but I have nothing but respect for the way they have opened up university to all students in the past few years with access courses and other programs. It can’t be long before UCD follow suit with this admittance policy. Heres RTE's interview with Patrick Geoghegan about the new policies.

There has been some objections to this but what does everyone else think. Should other universities pick up this?

LoonyLovegood · 20-08-2012 9:55pm

Definitely. People will have to think about a job they want, instead of it being "Mammy said I should do primary teaching." (Something I've heard a lot)

bren2001 · 20-08-2012 9:56pm

Waste of time, all thats going to happen is students are going to get taken away from their studies to write some ****ty letter. Ill be honest, I didnt have a clue what I wanted to do at the end of sixth year.

Students will still end up on the wrong courses. Waste of time!

steddyeddy · 20-08-2012 9:56pm

CTYIgirl wrote: »

Definitely. People will have to think about a job they want, instead of it being "Mammy said I should do primary teaching." (Something I've heard a lot)

And its one less thing for me to moan about which cant be a bad thing!

steddyeddy · 20-08-2012 9:58pm

bren2001 wrote: »

Waste of time, all thats going to happen is students are going to get taken away from their studies to write some ****ty letter. Ill be honest, I didnt have a clue what I wanted to do at the end of sixth year.

Students will still end up on the wrong courses. Waste of time!

Well Im also happy that the students school and enviroment will be taken into consideration. As far as the letter goes I dont see how it would be bad for a person who wants to do science or law to explain why he should do it over someone else.

El Guapo! · 20-08-2012 10:01pm

It's a step in the right direction but the whole education system needs to be overhauled from the bottom up. We need to change the way we teach in our schools, and we need to change the exam situation too. Students should be graded on a continuous assessment basis aswell as a final exam like the leaving cert, but without as much weight put on the final exam.
Then the admission system into 3rd level needs to also be looked at. As was said, the points system alone is not fair. When applying, you should have to include a letter regarding your course choice and also maybe aptitude tests and interviews for the chosen course should be introduced.
As I said though, it is a step in the right direction.

steddyeddy · 20-08-2012 10:02pm

Dean09 wrote: »

It's a step in the right direction but the whole education system needs to be overhauled from the bottom up. We need to change the way we teach in our schools, and we need to change the exam situation too. Students should be graded on a continuous assessment basis aswell as a final exam like the leaving cert, but without as much weight put on the final exam.
Then the admission system into 3rd level needs to also be looked at. As was said, the points system alone is not fair. When applying, you should have to include a letter regarding your course choice and also maybe aptitude tests and interviews for the chosen course should be introduced.
As I said though, it is a step in the right direction.

But what trinity is doing is using their admission policy to combat the unfairness in the points system.

1ZRed · 20-08-2012 10:03pm

bren2001 wrote: »

Waste of time, all thats going to happen is students are going to get taken away from their studies to write some ****ty letter. Ill be honest, I didnt have a clue what I wanted to do at the end of sixth year.

Students will still end up on the wrong courses. Waste of time!

But it will weed those students down a lot. Doing nothing at all won't help and it's just an assessment which does not take long or take away time from studying.

I see this as nothing but a good thing. If you're suited to your course, you will exel at it and that's what colleges should be looking at, getting the best results and best suited graduates by making sure it's for them.

El Weirdo · 20-08-2012 10:04pm

Dean09 wrote: »

It's a step in the right direction but the whole education system needs to be overhauled from the bottom up. We need to change the way we teach in our schools, and we need to change the exam situation too. Students should be graded on a continuous assessment basis aswell as a final exam like the leaving cert, but without as much weight put on the final exam.
Then the admission system into 3rd level needs to also be looked at. As was said, the points system alone is not fair. When applying, you should have to include a letter regarding your course choice and also maybe aptitude tests and interviews for the chosen course should be introduced.
As I said though, it is a step in the right direction.

You won't be saying that when all these newly-admitted ruffians bra bomb your office.

LoonyLovegood · 20-08-2012 10:04pm

Applying to the UK you have to do this, it's often used to weed out candidates and it works well. No system is perfect, but I far perfer theirs.

Pawwed Rig · 20-08-2012 10:05pm

But the whole point of the CAO/CAS system was so students did not have to individually apply to each course. I remember the main pain about the UK Universities was the onerous aplications.
Having said that I am sure the esteemed member of the faculty at Trinity knows a fair bit about the situation so I am not inclined to argue with him about it

Gummy Panda · 20-08-2012 10:08pm

El Weirdo wrote: »

Dean09 wrote: »

It's a step in the right direction but the whole education system needs to be overhauled from the bottom up. We need to change the way we teach in our schools, and we need to change the exam situation too. Students should be graded on a continuous assessment basis aswell as a final exam like the leaving cert, but without as much weight put on the final exam.
Then the admission system into 3rd level needs to also be looked at. As was said, the points system alone is not fair. When applying, you should have to include a letter regarding your course choice and also maybe aptitude tests and interviews for the chosen course should be introduced.
As I said though, it is a step in the right direction.

You won't be saying that when all these newly-admitted ruffians bra bomb your office.

ROBOT HOUSE!! :mad:

partyatmygaff · 20-08-2012 10:08pm

CTYIgirl wrote: »

Applying to the UK you have to do this, it's often used to weed out candidates and it works well. No system is perfect, but I far perfer theirs.

The only issue is that it puts people who don't have English as a first language or aren't particularly good at expressing themselves at a huge disadvantage. It's almost akin to putting a large points bonus on high grades in HL English.

Tombi! · 20-08-2012 10:09pm

I'm a bit confused.

Does this help the kids who didn't do too well with points or is it more of a "so you get 500 points, prove to me why I should choose you over the other 500"?

El Guapo! · 20-08-2012 10:10pm

El Weirdo wrote: »

You won't be saying that when all these newly-admitted ruffians bra bomb your office.

I, for one, welcome the removal of all bras. :pac:

steddyeddy · 20-08-2012 10:10pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

But the whole point of the CAO/CAS system was so students did not have to individually apply to each course. I remember the main pain about the UK Universities was the onerous aplications.
Having said that I am sure the esteemed member of the faculty at Trinity knows a fair bit about the situation so I am not inclined to argue with him about it

Well that system didnt take into account other advantages some students might have like grind schools ect. Its not an accurate picture of who works the hardest.

Larianne · 20-08-2012 10:11pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

As far as the letter goes I dont see how it would be bad for a person who wants to do science or law to explain why he should do it over someone else.

They use this system in the UK (and for mature student entry here).

I think some type of continuous assessment throughout 5th and 6th year would be better with less emphasis on one big exam at the end of the year. Would take the pressure off students.

People can just get someone else to write their personal statement for them. They'll start doing courses on how to write a perfect personal statement. :rolleyes:

I think some students picking courses look at how much points is required for the course and don't actually look into what the course is about. "OOh, that course must be good, its 500 points to get in". I know a few people in my class hadn't a clue what the end result of the course would be, where they'd end up working. I'm pretty sure one of the girls will end up going on to do another course. Another is being 'made' complete the course by her parents. Which is sad for someone who missed out on a place on the course.

Another way could be like the mature student entry requirements here where you have to write a personal statement, show some academic ability related to the course you want to do and, in some cases, have an interview. I don't know though how that would work with courses with large numbers, such as Arts or general science?

Stheno · 20-08-2012 10:11pm

Back in the early nineties, I did my leaving cert.

I applied to Stokes Kennedy Crowley as they were then known (KMPG) for their scholarship program.

I got interviewed and during the interview realised I'd not got the herd mentality to work for such a company and said so, in more polite terms.

I then got accepted to Commerce in UCD and dropped out as I was one of those people who learned by memory and never had to work for results.

I got very good results in LC and Matric at the time.

After dropping out, I had lots of menial jobs, then fell into IT. I've had a great career in IT, my guidance counsellor always told me I'd be a good engineer, but I fell into IT

My point?

At 18 you can know what you don't want. But applying more criteria than points makes a lot of sense.

20-08-2012 10:12pm

I should be finished before any of them start so I'm not against this measure.

bleg · 20-08-2012 10:14pm

Sounds like the work of a crusty old dean.

EchoO · 20-08-2012 10:14pm

Dean09 wrote: »

Then the admission system into 3rd level needs to also be looked at. As was said, the points system alone is not fair. When applying, you should have to include a letter regarding your course choice and also maybe aptitude tests and interviews for the chosen course should be introduced.
As I said though, it is a step in the right direction.

The "it's not what you know, but who you know" approach is too prevalent in Ireland for an interview based system to work. I think the anonymity aspect of the points system is important. Aptitude tests would'nt be a bad idea though.

20-08-2012 10:15pm

Larianne wrote: »

I think some type of continuous assessment throughout 5th and 6th year would be better with less emphasis on one big exam at the end of the year. Would take the pressure off students.

When I was in 6th year the people who felt the pressure around the Leaving Cert freaked out exactly the same for the orals and when Art stuff was due. Having more spread out assessment won't get such people to chill out.

Aside from that, any changes to the system will just result in money being spent on different kinds of grinds. Giving bonus points for being poor is something that I think would be pretty ridiculous as well.

oppenheimer1 · 20-08-2012 10:17pm

I'd be disappointed to see the points system go which is highly objective, only to be replaced by something which is highly subjective.

Try as you might, but you cannot use power and influence to get into university in Ireland currently. A few years ago in fact someone tried to buy their way into medicine by saying they would pay non-eu fees but was thrown out by the courts. Introducing a letter/interview system is opening the door for the old boys to ensure it stays an old boys club. The idea might be well intentioned but it would be roundly abused.

Unregistered. · 20-08-2012 10:17pm

Fantastic. Somebody has the balls to implement a system to tackle students applying for courses they don't really want.

TheBegotten · 20-08-2012 10:18pm

This is a GODSEND. The course I am planing to do rose to 515 today, with no sign of declining. There's 12 places for the course, no other university in Ireland does it. I was terrified that the one of the only courses in Ireland I was passionate about would be taken up by some apatethic genius whose mammy thought that nanoscience sounded nice.

steddyeddy · 20-08-2012 10:18pm

EchoO wrote: »

The "it's not what you know, but who you know" approach is too prevalent in Ireland for an interview based system to work. I think the anonymity aspect of the points system is important. Aptitude tests would'nt be a bad idea though.

Thats a good point but I cant see it applying to the sciences or anything technical. Just because I see jummy from down the road in the pub every now and again doesnt mean I trust his ability to work in a lab.

Pawwed Rig · 20-08-2012 10:19pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well that system didnt take into account other advantages some students might have like grind schools ect. Its not an accurate picture of who works the hardest.

It is a fair point. I think the education system here needs a serious shake up anyway. I am happy to see weightings for subjects coming back in after a 2 decade hiatus. Good to see all the people who attempted honours Maths

steddyeddy · 20-08-2012 10:20pm

TheBegotten wrote: »

This is a GODSEND. The course I am planing to do rose to 515 today, with no sign of declining. There's 12 places for the course, no other university in Ireland does it. I was terrified that the one of the only courses in Ireland I was passionate about would be taken up by some apatethic genius whose mammy thought that nanoscience sounded nice.

Delighted for you. You sound like you had your mind on this for sometime. Unfortunatly I meet plenty of the people who are under orders from mammy to do a fashionable course.

JohnMarston · 20-08-2012 10:22pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

The only issue is that it puts people who don't have English as a first language or aren't particularly good at expressing themselves at a huge disadvantage. It's almost akin to putting a large points bonus on high grades in HL English.

How would one be able to get the most out of 3rd level education if they cannot grasp the english language, in a country that primarily speaks english?

Larianne · 20-08-2012 10:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

When I was in 6th year the people who felt the pressure around the Leaving Cert freaked out exactly the same for the orals and when Art stuff was due. Having more spread out assessment won't get such people to chill out.

A lot of college courses have continous assessment, why not start it in secondary school?

Deleted User wrote: »

Aside from that, any changes to the system will just result in money being spent on different kinds of grinds. Giving bonus points for being poor is something that I think would be pretty ridiculous as well.

I'm pretty sure there is something already in place where if you live in a disadvantage area you can have lower points to get into courses. I remember a girl in 1st year wanted to get into medicine but although she lived in a 'poor' area her Dad's job title wouldn't allow her to qualify for it.

El Guapo! · 20-08-2012 10:34pm

bleg wrote: »

Sounds like the work of a crusty old dean.

Mysteriouschic · 20-08-2012 10:36pm

I think the personal statement is a great thing they should do it similar to the ucas. I applied twice with ucas. I like writing the personal statement as you really need to try and understand the course and think about why it's right for you. It also gives you a chance to try and "sell yourself" and then it's a great feeling knowing you were accepted by the tutors to do the course and not from an electronic system that automatically randomly finds you a place.

20-08-2012 10:39pm

Larianne wrote: »

A lot of college courses have continous assessment, why not start it in secondary school?

The stress argument was what I was addressing.

I'm pretty sure there is something already in place where if you live in a disadvantage area you can have lower points to get into courses. I remember a girl in 1st year wanted to get into medicine but although she lived in a 'poor' area her Dad's job title wouldn't allow her to qualify for it.

Yeah there is and it's seems like the most ahem, "flexible" system I've come across based on people I know who did and didn't get it. I was told my school wasn't included in it when a mate got in through it for example. There's a ridiculous mishmash of "accessibility" programmes for university in this country.

Ficheall · 20-08-2012 10:39pm

So who is going to write a student's personal statement for them? There's a good online business write there. PM me if someone sets it up and is looking for writers.

Also, will this scheme not lead to an influx of "good schools"' children into LC of some of the crappier schools in an effort to get those few extra points?

steddyeddy · 20-08-2012 10:44pm

Ficheall wrote: »

So who is going to write a student's personal statement for them? There's a good online business write there. PM me if someone sets it up and is looking for writers.

Also, will this scheme not lead to an influx of "good schools"' children into LC of some of the crappier schools in an effort to get those few extra points?

Ill do one for you for a tenner

partyatmygaff · 20-08-2012 10:46pm

JohnMarston wrote: »

How would one be able to get the most out of 3rd level education if they cannot grasp the english language, in a country that primarily speaks english?

Grasping the English language is one thing and having the necessary mastery and flair for the language to write a convincing personal statement is another.

Someone with relatively poor English but a mathematical genius applying for a Maths degree wouldn't benefit at all from a personal statement.

Mysteriouschic · 20-08-2012 10:46pm

I must say I'd say it's better to write it yourself and then just get the teachers/career guidance to help you make it read better. I think it's good too because all you do is try to say why you want to do the course and how it will be right for you. It might not work as well as the English system as they're more colleges/universities to choose from over there.

PieForPi · 20-08-2012 10:49pm

Leave it to some Trinner's neckbeard to make some pretentious yet vacuous statement on admissions on the very day people are celebrating their future.

There must have been lots of sighing amongst the sisters-jeans-wearing, thick framed glass wearing radicals today in order to provoke this. I'm sure it was the topic of many conversations had over the top of Macbooks in Starbucks.

Rocket19 · 20-08-2012 10:52pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Aside from that, any changes to the system will just result in money being spent on different kinds of grinds. Giving bonus points for being poor is something that I think would be pretty ridiculous as well.

You haven't worded this very eloquently, but I agree with you! :P

What TCD is basically saying is that, if two students get 500 points, one disadvantaged, and one not, they will give the place to the disadvantaged student????
Why?? It's ridiculous. Being from an "elite fee paying school" does not get you 500 or 600 points. Fee paying schools do NOT have better teachers, and they certainly cannot guarantee you points. They may have better facilities, sports, etc, but does that really matter in the end?? The expectation is high in fee-paying schools, study/hard work is very much encouraged, probably more so than some other schools. HOWEVER, only hard word, dedication, and many hours of hitting the books will get you the points in the end.

While I completely agree with giving disadvantaged students the platform and help they need to enter college (they have just as much right as anyone, obviously), this is on a whole other level. It's reverse discrimination. While the current system has it's flaws, at least it's anonymous. Whether the student is from Blackrock or Ballymun, it is virtually impossibly for them to get fcucked over, they are just a number to the examiner.

mikemac1 · 20-08-2012 10:52pm

bleg wrote: »

Sounds like the work of a crusty old dean.

NEEEEEEEEEEERRRRD!

Lando Griffin · 20-08-2012 10:54pm

.....and who will train as plumbers, carpenters, plasterers etc to build the new boom? There they will be all doctors, dentists layers. This country is fecked and the sooner I get off my sorry ass and leave then so be it ll have to be.

TheBegotten · 20-08-2012 11:01pm

Lando Griffin wrote: »

.....and who will train as plumbers, carpenters, plasterers etc to build the new boom? There they will be all doctors, dentists layers. This country is fecked and the sooner I get off my sorry ass and leave then so be it ll have to be.

No matter how easy it may become to train as a doctor, there will always be those who prefer manual work as plumbers, etc. Furthermore, I think we've had enough property based booms. Are you implying that increased education access will be detrimental to the country? Or that those from disadvantaged areas should be 'kept in their place' so we can have an oversupply of plumbers and other manual labourers?

Rocket19 wrote: »

What TCD is basically saying is that, if two students get 500 points, one disadvantaged, and one not, they will give the place to the disadvantaged student????

Err, no. It means that students will be able to present their case. Why should some lazy asshole get their preferred place instead of someone who studied for 3 hours a day 6 days a week?

garv123 · 20-08-2012 11:01pm

How is it fair this year that someone who worked their arse off to get something like journalism and aced English but did pass maths lose out his/her place to someone who did honours maths and scraped English but s/he gets the course because of 25 extra points for maths.

randylonghorn · 20-08-2012 11:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Giving bonus points for being poor is something that I think would be pretty ridiculous as well.

Well, for years before the famous Free Fees Initiative we gave "bonus points" for being rich (not literally, but in practical terms). In fact we never quite stopped doing that in a number of ways; it's difficult to avoid, in fairness, and Ireland isn't the worst example in that respect ... but it's probably becoming more of an issue again in the last few years.

Ficheall wrote: »

So who is going to write a student's personal statement for them? There's a good online business write there. PM me if someone sets it up and is looking for writers.

I would be inclined to support the approach in principle, the points race is becoming more and more ridiculous; but yes, you and others who mentioned this have a valid point.

The points race has led to a whole industry in "education" as it is with grinds schools and private grinds and what have you; the HPAT led to expensive prep courses for a personal assessment which supposedly couldn't be "taught"; I could see this going the same way.

PieForPi wrote: »

Leave it to some Trinner's neckbeard to make some pretentious yet vacuous statement on admissions on the very day people are celebrating their future.

There must have been lots of sighing amongst the sisters-jeans-wearing, thick framed glass wearing radicals today in order to provoke this. I'm sure it was the topic of many conversations had over the top of Macbooks in Starbucks.

Wow.

I'm glad you decided to avoid blatant stereotypes there at any rate.

20-08-2012 11:08pm

Rocket19 wrote: »

You haven't worded this very eloquently, but I agree with you! :P

Would never guess I was a poor kid who went to Trinity eh? :P

What TCD is basically saying is that, if two students get 500 points, one disadvantaged, and one not, they will give the place to the disadvantaged student????
Why?? It's ridiculous. Being from an "elite fee paying school" does not get you 500 or 600 points. Fee paying schools do NOT have better teachers, and they certainly cannot guarantee you points. They may have better facilities, sports, etc, but does that really matter in the end?? The expectation is high in fee-paying schools, study/hard work is very much encouraged, probably more so than some other schools. HOWEVER, only hard word, dedication, and many hours of hitting the books will get you the points in the end.

While I completely agree with giving disadvantaged students the platform and help they need to enter college (they have just as much right as anyone, obviously), this is on a whole other level. It's reverse discrimination. While the current system has it's flaws, at least it's anonymous. Whether the student is from Blackrock or Ballymun, it is virtually impossibly for them to get fcucked over, they are just a number to the examiner.

In fairness the difference in results between fee-paying and non-fee-paying schools can't be put down to genetics. Fee-paying schools will have better facilities etc. which makes a big difference. Kids will be more likely to work harder because they know their family are paying for it. Even if only a few kids per class work harder it makes a massive difference in environment. Then aside from the schools there's the whole grinds sector. They tried making entry to medicine less dependent on LC results so grinds schools for the aptitude test started. Do they make a massive difference? Probably not for everyone but for some they will make a difference. Have personal statements and there'll be grinds or "help" available for that.
It's unfair but I can't see how to fix it and penalising others for having money isn't my idea of fairness.

steddyeddy · 20-08-2012 11:31pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Grasping the English language is one thing and having the necessary mastery and flair for the language to write a convincing personal statement is another.

Someone with relatively poor English but a mathematical genius applying for a Maths degree wouldn't benefit at all from a personal statement.

In fairness if hes a maths genius he can use mathematical proofs. If hes applying for the arts his/her grasp of english should be fairly good anyway.

squod · 21-08-2012 1:23am

Anyone know how this effects foreign students? Anyone see how this stops the sheer waste that we see in training, then exporting people?

randylonghorn · 21-08-2012 1:40am

squod wrote: »

Anyone know how this effects foreign students?

Well, students from Ireland or any country applying to American or UK universities apply through a similar system, so I'm not sure why it should have any major impact or cause great perturbation there.

squod wrote: »

... anyone see how this stops the sheer waste that we see in training, then exporting people?

I don't think it's targeted at any such issue, or claims to be.

Besides, I'm not sure the young people of the country who are growing up facing a bleak prospect for employment at the moment due to the relentless follies of their elders would see the provision of third level education as a "sheer waste".

What would you suggest, that we revert to a previous era and export them on cattle boats at 17/18 with no further education or training to serve as navvies / labourers to the rest of the world?

squod · 21-08-2012 1:49am

randylonghorn wrote: »

Well, students from Ireland or any country applying to American or UK universities apply through a similar system, so I'm not sure why it should have any major impact or cause great perturbation there.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't some part of the problem to do with foreign students taking jerbs places in universities?

randylonghorn wrote: »

Besides, I'm not sure the young people of the country who are growing up facing a bleak prospect for employment at the moment due to the relentless follies of their elders would see the provision of third level education as a "sheer waste".

What would you suggest, that we revert to a previous era and export them on cattle boats at 17/18 with no further education or training to serve as navvies / labourers to the rest of the world?

Sheer waste nonetheless.

randylonghorn · 21-08-2012 2:04am

squod wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't some part of the problem to do with foreign students taking jerbs places in universities?

Which problem exactly?

I suppose that, on the surface, foreign students taking places means less places for Irish students; on the other hand though, foreign students taking places means income for an under-funded system, which helps to protect or even increase the number of places for Irish students, not to mention the other spin-offs to the economy. Few things are as simplistic or as black and white as AH would have us believe.

squod wrote: »

Sheer waste nonetheless.

From whose perspective?

That of the young people, or their parents and extended families? ... in other words, of a sizeable proportion of the Irish population?

Is healthcare a sheer waste too? Should we just let people die if they fall sick?

Sure that would also reduce the numbers vying for scarce jobs, not to mention cutting government expenditure, and help further to put us on the road to recovery, wouldn't it?

What defines "sheer waste"? Who defines it? By what right and by what criteria?

bren2001 · 21-08-2012 7:36am

I think what Trinity are doing doesn't improve the system in any manner. Anybody can fake a huge interest in a letter and it I apply to 7 courses in Trinity I've to write 7 letters etc.

What was mentioned on the radio earlier today makes more sense in that bonus points for subjects relevant to the course makes sense. There is no point in giving students an additional 25 points in Mathematics when they go off and study Philosophy. Bonus points in Mathematics should be for Engineering courses, Biology for medicine etc.

Finally theres a move for equality in education!

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