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Finally theres a move for equality in education!

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    #32
    Mysteriouschic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,391 ✭✭✭Mysteriouschic


    I think the personal statement is a great thing they should do it similar to the ucas. I applied twice with ucas. I like writing the personal statement as you really need to try and understand the course and think about why it's right for you. It also gives you a chance to try and "sell yourself" and then it's a great feeling knowing you were accepted by the tutors to do the course and not from an electronic system that automatically randomly finds you a place.


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    #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Larianne wrote: »
    A lot of college courses have continous assessment, why not start it in secondary school?
    The stress argument was what I was addressing.
    I'm pretty sure there is something already in place where if you live in a disadvantage area you can have lower points to get into courses. I remember a girl in 1st year wanted to get into medicine but although she lived in a 'poor' area her Dad's job title wouldn't allow her to qualify for it. :confused:
    Yeah there is and it's seems like the most ahem, "flexible" system I've come across based on people I know who did and didn't get it. I was told my school wasn't included in it when a mate got in through it for example. There's a ridiculous mishmash of "accessibility" programmes for university in this country.


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    #34
    Ficheall
    Registered Users Posts: 9,024 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    So who is going to write a student's personal statement for them? There's a good online business write there. PM me if someone sets it up and is looking for writers.

    Also, will this scheme not lead to an influx of "good schools"' children into LC of some of the crappier schools in an effort to get those few extra points?


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    #35
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Ficheall wrote: »
    So who is going to write a student's personal statement for them? There's a good online business write there. PM me if someone sets it up and is looking for writers.

    Also, will this scheme not lead to an influx of "good schools"' children into LC of some of the crappier schools in an effort to get those few extra points?

    Ill do one for you for a tenner ;)


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    #36
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    JohnMarston wrote: »
    How would one be able to get the most out of 3rd level education if they cannot grasp the english language, in a country that primarily speaks english?
    Grasping the English language is one thing and having the necessary mastery and flair for the language to write a convincing personal statement is another.

    Someone with relatively poor English but a mathematical genius applying for a Maths degree wouldn't benefit at all from a personal statement.


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    #37
    Mysteriouschic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,391 ✭✭✭Mysteriouschic


    I must say I'd say it's better to write it yourself and then just get the teachers/career guidance to help you make it read better. I think it's good too because all you do is try to say why you want to do the course and how it will be right for you. It might not work as well as the English system as they're more colleges/universities to choose from over there.


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    #38
    PieForPi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 112 ✭✭PieForPi


    Leave it to some Trinner's neckbeard to make some pretentious yet vacuous statement on admissions on the very day people are celebrating their future.

    There must have been lots of sighing amongst the sisters-jeans-wearing, thick framed glass wearing radicals today in order to provoke this. I'm sure it was the topic of many conversations had over the top of Macbooks in Starbucks.


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    #39
    Rocket19
    Registered Users Posts: 451 ✭✭Rocket19


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Aside from that, any changes to the system will just result in money being spent on different kinds of grinds. Giving bonus points for being poor is something that I think would be pretty ridiculous as well.

    You haven't worded this very eloquently, but I agree with you! :P

    What TCD is basically saying is that, if two students get 500 points, one disadvantaged, and one not, they will give the place to the disadvantaged student????
    Why?? It's ridiculous. Being from an "elite fee paying school" does not get you 500 or 600 points. Fee paying schools do NOT have better teachers, and they certainly cannot guarantee you points. They may have better facilities, sports, etc, but does that really matter in the end?? The expectation is high in fee-paying schools, study/hard work is very much encouraged, probably more so than some other schools. HOWEVER, only hard word, dedication, and many hours of hitting the books will get you the points in the end.

    While I completely agree with giving disadvantaged students the platform and help they need to enter college (they have just as much right as anyone, obviously), this is on a whole other level. It's reverse discrimination. While the current system has it's flaws, at least it's anonymous. Whether the student is from Blackrock or Ballymun, it is virtually impossibly for them to get fcucked over, they are just a number to the examiner.


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    #40
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    bleg wrote: »
    Sounds like the work of a crusty old dean.

    NEEEEEEEEEEERRRRD!


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    #41
    Lando Griffin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,952 ✭✭✭Lando Griffin


    .....and who will train as plumbers, carpenters, plasterers etc to build the new boom? There they will be all doctors, dentists layers. This country is fecked and the sooner I get off my sorry ass and leave then so be it ll have to be.


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    #42
    TheBegotten
    Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭TheBegotten


    Lando Griffin wrote: »
    .....and who will train as plumbers, carpenters, plasterers etc to build the new boom? There they will be all doctors, dentists layers. This country is fecked and the sooner I get off my sorry ass and leave then so be it ll have to be.
    No matter how easy it may become to train as a doctor, there will always be those who prefer manual work as plumbers, etc. Furthermore, I think we've had enough property based booms. Are you implying that increased education access will be detrimental to the country? Or that those from disadvantaged areas should be 'kept in their place' so we can have an oversupply of plumbers and other manual labourers?
    Rocket19 wrote: »
    What TCD is basically saying is that, if two students get 500 points, one disadvantaged, and one not, they will give the place to the disadvantaged student????
    Err, no. It means that students will be able to present their case. Why should some lazy asshole get their preferred place instead of someone who studied for 3 hours a day 6 days a week?


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    #43
    garv123
    Registered Users Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭garv123


    How is it fair this year that someone who worked their arse off to get something like journalism and aced English but did pass maths lose out his/her place to someone who did honours maths and scraped English but s/he gets the course because of 25 extra points for maths.


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    #44
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Giving bonus points for being poor is something that I think would be pretty ridiculous as well.
    Well, for years before the famous Free Fees Initiative we gave "bonus points" for being rich (not literally, but in practical terms). In fact we never quite stopped doing that in a number of ways; it's difficult to avoid, in fairness, and Ireland isn't the worst example in that respect ... but it's probably becoming more of an issue again in the last few years.
    Ficheall wrote: »
    So who is going to write a student's personal statement for them? There's a good online business write there. PM me if someone sets it up and is looking for writers.
    I would be inclined to support the approach in principle, the points race is becoming more and more ridiculous; but yes, you and others who mentioned this have a valid point.

    The points race has led to a whole industry in "education" as it is with grinds schools and private grinds and what have you; the HPAT led to expensive prep courses for a personal assessment which supposedly couldn't be "taught"; I could see this going the same way.
    PieForPi wrote: »
    Leave it to some Trinner's neckbeard to make some pretentious yet vacuous statement on admissions on the very day people are celebrating their future.

    There must have been lots of sighing amongst the sisters-jeans-wearing, thick framed glass wearing radicals today in order to provoke this. I'm sure it was the topic of many conversations had over the top of Macbooks in Starbucks.
    Wow.

    I'm glad you decided to avoid blatant stereotypes there at any rate.


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    #45
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Rocket19 wrote: »
    You haven't worded this very eloquently, but I agree with you! :P
    Would never guess I was a poor kid who went to Trinity eh? :P
    What TCD is basically saying is that, if two students get 500 points, one disadvantaged, and one not, they will give the place to the disadvantaged student????
    Why?? It's ridiculous. Being from an "elite fee paying school" does not get you 500 or 600 points. Fee paying schools do NOT have better teachers, and they certainly cannot guarantee you points. They may have better facilities, sports, etc, but does that really matter in the end?? The expectation is high in fee-paying schools, study/hard work is very much encouraged, probably more so than some other schools. HOWEVER, only hard word, dedication, and many hours of hitting the books will get you the points in the end.

    While I completely agree with giving disadvantaged students the platform and help they need to enter college (they have just as much right as anyone, obviously), this is on a whole other level. It's reverse discrimination. While the current system has it's flaws, at least it's anonymous. Whether the student is from Blackrock or Ballymun, it is virtually impossibly for them to get fcucked over, they are just a number to the examiner.
    In fairness the difference in results between fee-paying and non-fee-paying schools can't be put down to genetics. Fee-paying schools will have better facilities etc. which makes a big difference. Kids will be more likely to work harder because they know their family are paying for it. Even if only a few kids per class work harder it makes a massive difference in environment. Then aside from the schools there's the whole grinds sector. They tried making entry to medicine less dependent on LC results so grinds schools for the aptitude test started. Do they make a massive difference? Probably not for everyone but for some they will make a difference. Have personal statements and there'll be grinds or "help" available for that.
    It's unfair but I can't see how to fix it and penalising others for having money isn't my idea of fairness.


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    #46
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Grasping the English language is one thing and having the necessary mastery and flair for the language to write a convincing personal statement is another.

    Someone with relatively poor English but a mathematical genius applying for a Maths degree wouldn't benefit at all from a personal statement.

    In fairness if hes a maths genius he can use mathematical proofs. If hes applying for the arts his/her grasp of english should be fairly good anyway.


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    #47
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Anyone know how this effects foreign students? Anyone see how this stops the sheer waste that we see in training, then exporting people?


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    #48
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    squod wrote: »
    Anyone know how this effects foreign students?
    Well, students from Ireland or any country applying to American or UK universities apply through a similar system, so I'm not sure why it should have any major impact or cause great perturbation there.
    squod wrote: »
    ... anyone see how this stops the sheer waste that we see in training, then exporting people?
    I don't think it's targeted at any such issue, or claims to be.

    Besides, I'm not sure the young people of the country who are growing up facing a bleak prospect for employment at the moment due to the relentless follies of their elders would see the provision of third level education as a "sheer waste".

    What would you suggest, that we revert to a previous era and export them on cattle boats at 17/18 with no further education or training to serve as navvies / labourers to the rest of the world?


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    #49
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    randylonghorn wrote: »
    Well, students from Ireland or any country applying to American or UK universities apply through a similar system, so I'm not sure why it should have any major impact or cause great perturbation there.

    Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't some part of the problem to do with foreign students taking jerbs places in universities?
    randylonghorn wrote: »

    Besides, I'm not sure the young people of the country who are growing up facing a bleak prospect for employment at the moment due to the relentless follies of their elders would see the provision of third level education as a "sheer waste".

    What would you suggest, that we revert to a previous era and export them on cattle boats at 17/18 with no further education or training to serve as navvies / labourers to the rest of the world?

    Sheer waste nonetheless.


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    #50
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    squod wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't some part of the problem to do with foreign students taking jerbs places in universities?
    Which problem exactly?

    I suppose that, on the surface, foreign students taking places means less places for Irish students; on the other hand though, foreign students taking places means income for an under-funded system, which helps to protect or even increase the number of places for Irish students, not to mention the other spin-offs to the economy. Few things are as simplistic or as black and white as AH would have us believe.
    squod wrote: »
    Sheer waste nonetheless.
    From whose perspective?

    That of the young people, or their parents and extended families? ... in other words, of a sizeable proportion of the Irish population?

    Is healthcare a sheer waste too? Should we just let people die if they fall sick?

    Sure that would also reduce the numbers vying for scarce jobs, not to mention cutting government expenditure, and help further to put us on the road to recovery, wouldn't it?

    What defines "sheer waste"? Who defines it? By what right and by what criteria?


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    #51
    bren2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,114 ✭✭✭bren2001


    I think what Trinity are doing doesn't improve the system in any manner. Anybody can fake a huge interest in a letter and it I apply to 7 courses in Trinity I've to write 7 letters etc.

    What was mentioned on the radio earlier today makes more sense in that bonus points for subjects relevant to the course makes sense. There is no point in giving students an additional 25 points in Mathematics when they go off and study Philosophy. Bonus points in Mathematics should be for Engineering courses, Biology for medicine etc.


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    #52
    Sala
    Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭Sala


    I can imagine all the pre-interview courses popping up that the children in fee-paying schools will avail of. If there is some sort of interview process it could be open to abuse, imagine the University academics children coming in and being refused a place??
    That said, in theory it is a good idea. I know a lot of people who say nursing should never have gone onto the points system as the best candidates are those with good people skills, communication skills and able to deal with difficult emotional situations, none of which are assessed by the leaving cert


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    #53
    SocSocPol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭SocSocPol


    bleg wrote: »
    Sounds like the work of a crusty old dean.
    Actually quite a young Dean.


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    #54
    SocSocPol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭SocSocPol


    bren2001 wrote: »
    I think what Trinity are doing doesn't improve the system in any manner. Anybody can fake a huge interest in a letter and it I apply to 7 courses in Trinity I've to write 7 letters etc.

    What was mentioned on the radio earlier today makes more sense in that bonus points for subjects relevant to the course makes sense. There is no point in giving students an additional 25 points in Mathematics when they go off and study Philosophy. Bonus points in Mathematics should be for Engineering courses, Biology for medicine etc.
    You post is both misinformed and mis-representative.
    The persoal statement is just one aspect of the pilot programme being introduced, the school attended by the applicant will also be taken into account as will other factors including possible interviews. Basically, it will mirror in part the selection systyem applied to most Mature student applications.
    All in all it has to be a good thing.


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    #55
    JohnMarston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭JohnMarston


    If you are a foreign student and are determined to get into (insert irish university here) to do a degree, then wouldn't you do whatever you needed to to get into it. A personal statement is required for UK universities but they still accept foreign students


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    #56
    ZzubZzub
    Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭ZzubZzub


    I much prefer the UCAS system here in the UK, having applied through both CAO, and UCAS.

    With UCAS, you include a personal statement, and references. So if you've gotten a part time job, or have gotten experience in the field you want to go into, the universities can take that into consideration.

    There is none of this automated search nonsense, where it goes through all your choices, until you've enough points for your #8 course that you don't really want.

    When interviewed, first it is a group session with other applicants. They give you more information about the course, you get a chance to talk to other students and when it comes to the one on one, you can convey how much you want the course.

    It definitely weeds out *some* applicants that aren't really suited to the course. Of course, some slip through the cracks. But the amount of people I know in Ireland who are doing medicine, nursing etc because they have the points and are totally unsuited to that profession.


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    #57
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    Ficheall wrote: »
    So who is going to write a student's personal statement for them? There's a good online business write there. PM me if someone sets it up and is looking for writers.

    Think I'll pass, sorry :p


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    #58
    Diapason
    Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭Diapason


    A friend of mine is on the interview panel for admissions to Oxford. There's nothing "fair" about that system either. Some people come in from schools who prepare the students, some people don't. Guess who gets in? And for those who think the LC is too stressful, some people in those interviews flip out so much they simply can't function.

    The points system obviously has many flaws, and I completely agree that the wrong people often end up on courses, but I'd hate to see change for its own sake. Just because what we have isn't ideal, it doesn't mean that everything else is great.


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    #59
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Ridiculous idea.

    All that will happen is people will open Saturday classes in writing personal statements and rich kids will be hiring professional writers to draft theirs.

    How do people not get this - the point system has it's flaws, but it s inherent anonymity make it the superior system in a country where nepotism reigns supreme.

    The reason people end up on the 'wrong' course is because parents make them pick something whether they like it or not.


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    #60
    Ficheall
    Registered Users Posts: 9,024 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    Herb Powell wrote: »
    Ficheall wrote: »
    There's a good online business write there. PM me if someone sets it up and is looking for writers.
    Think I'll pass, sorry :p

    :pac:
    The only spelling error in any of my boards posts. Typical.

    I was, of course, going for a witty pun.
    >_>
    <_<


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    #61
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    opinion guy wrote: »
    Ridiculous idea.

    All that will happen is people will open Saturday classes in writing personal statements and rich kids will be hiring professional writers to draft theirs.

    Then why is that not a problem in the UK:confused:
    How do people not get this - the point system has it's flaws, but it s inherent anonymity make it the superior system in a country where nepotism reigns supreme.
    Qualitative assessments of students' applications can be anonymous, you know... a faculty doesn't have to know your name to look at your grades individually.


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