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Pussy Riot

245

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,836 ✭✭✭Colmustard


    Biggins wrote: »
    It might have been disrespectful of the worshippers - they might have decided to protest during a religious moment - however the very facts is that they DID NOT say anything that espoused they were inciting hatred towards religion.

    They were actually protesting against Putin inserting himself and abusing religious orders to get his way.
    They were by effect, standing up for religion - not espousing hatred of it.

    Go actually learn the facts and/or listen to their very words.

    Anyone that says they were guilty of religious hatred is bloody uneducated idiot!
    A person devoid of the actual facts or one that refuses to actually look at them.

    It doesn't matter what they said its were they said it. Spin it what way you will but it was still disrespectful to say the least.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Mr Whirly


    Nah. if it happened in Dublin no one would give two ****es. That's the difference between a Putin led regime and us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    frag420 wrote: »
    I thought title said Pussy Rot....................Disapointed!
    Anti-fungal cream helps with that!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Originally Posted by jaykay74 View Post
    Just seen that Garry Kasparov has been arrested outside the trial. If you don't believe me then check mate
    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Bad move. :D
    .

    Zapp: If we can hit that bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards, checkmate!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,836 ✭✭✭Colmustard


    Mr Whirly wrote: »
    Nah. if it happened in Dublin no one would give two ****es. That's the difference between a Putin led regime and us.

    Yeah you are more then likely right my folks are religious and I imagine they would be slightly amused if something like that happened at their church.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭brimal


    Another more worrying piece of news to come out of Russia today has been the top court in Moscow has upheld a ban on gay pride marches for the next 100 years.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19293465


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Colmustard wrote: »
    It doesn't matter what they said its were they said it. Spin it what way you will but it was still disrespectful to say the least.

    Learn the law - being disrespectful of one thing does not make one legally guilty of another.

    So by your mentality and though process, if I protest at a race meeting about our present government or any person in it - I'm inciting hatred against horse racing too?

    Stupidity!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Mr Whirly wrote: »
    Nah. if it happened in Dublin no one would give two ****es. That's the difference between a Putin led regime and us.

    I am always wary of people substituting the word 'Government' with 'Regime', Regime is an absolutely loaded term. The notion that the Russian judiciary and various churches are under the control of Putin is unproven (to put it mildly).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Mr Whirly


    Not in my opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,836 ✭✭✭Colmustard


    brimal wrote: »
    Another more worrying piece of news to come out of Russia today has been the top court in Moscow has upheld a ban on gay pride marches for the next 100 years.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19293465

    LOL
    100 years,
    They should have their march with the mayday parades. Make red square pink.
    Biggins wrote: »
    Learn the law - being disrespectful of one thing does not make one legally guilty of another.

    Would a protest group who did something similar here in a synagogue a church or a mosque get public support here, I don't think so.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Morlar wrote: »
    ...The notion that the Russian judiciary and various churches are under the control of Putin is unproven (to put it mildly).

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1622544,00.html
    the reunification has political resonance as well because the Russian Orthodox Church is increasingly a symbol and projection of Russian nationalism.

    Indeed, rather than first give thanks to God in his speech, the head of the ROC, Patriarch Alexy, paid homage to Russian President Vladimir Putin. The Patriarch emphasized that the reunification could happen only because the ROCOR saw in Putin "a genuine Russian Orthodox human being." Putin responded in his speech that the reunification was a major event for the entire nation.

    Nationalism, based on the Orthodox faith, has been emerging as the Putin regime's major ideological resource. Thursday's rite sealed the four-year long effort by Putin, beginning in September 2003, to have the Moscow Patriarchate take over its rival American-based cousin and launch a new globalized Church as his state's main ideological arm and a vital foreign policy instrument.

    Putins efforts to insert himself, his government and use the Orthodox org and faith, has been seen by some for some time now. Its well reported upon. A simple google search will show this.

    Pussy riots was protesting against Putin and he using the faith for political ends.
    There was NO "religious hatred" as such, spoken of and NO evidence was put forth in their legal case that the girls had done so.

    Their protest about Putin being involved in religion, happened to just be on religious property - even if it was disrespectful of some worshippers.
    Some whom by the way, might have felt the same way as the girls, disgusted at Putins involvement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭brimal


    Colmustard wrote: »
    LOL
    100 years,
    They should have their march with the mayday parades. Make red square pink.

    I'm trying to understand what you find funny about this news? I can only assume you are laughing at the ridiculousness of the Moscow court's decision.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Biggins wrote: »
    Putins efforts to insert himself and use the Orthodox org and faith, has been seen by some for some time now. . . .

    Aside from the difference between 'reported' and 'proven' . . . Not exactly the same thing as what was said however is it ?
    Originally Posted by Morlar View Post
    ...The notion that the Russian judiciary and various churches are under the control of Putin is unproven (to put it mildly).


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Colmustard wrote: »
    Would a protest group who did something similar here in a synagogue a church or a mosque get public support here, I don't think so.

    No, there would be an amount of ire I expect - however in the eyes of the law - just because they did it on a particular piece of land, does NOT make them automatically guilty of hating or inciting hatred of something that also is on that land!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Morlar wrote: »
    Aside from the difference between 'reported' and 'proven' . . . Not exactly the same thing as what was said however is it ?

    However the many reports which can be found, speak for themselves as to Putins use and abuse of Russia faith for his own ends.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭JohnMarston


    jaykay74 wrote: »
    Just seen that Garry Kasparov has been arrested outside the trial. If you don't believe me then check mate

    looks like the pawns have captured the white knight :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 965 ✭✭✭CucaFace


    That Nadezhda Tolokonnikova is so hot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Morlar wrote: »
    Zapp: If we can hit that bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards, checkmate!

    "Qif, in the game of chess, you must never let your opponent see your pieces."

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,836 ✭✭✭Colmustard


    brimal wrote: »
    I'm trying to understand what you find funny about this news? I can only assume you are laughing at the ridiculousness of the Moscow court's decision.

    Exactly
    I am laughing at the whole notion of a 100 year ban. Every other nation is progressing on the issues of gay people and they say nah sorry not for another 100 years.

    I know what I am about to post is a very broad generalisation and very politically incorrect. I generally do not like Russians especially the males, its a serious macho culture and they are very quick to violence. I just give them a very wide berth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭indioblack


    CucaFace wrote: »
    That Nadezhda Tolokonnikova is so hot.
    Been watching this on BBC News and if I had a hat I'd take it off to those presenters who kept a straight face whilst having to continually repeat the name of this girl band.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    If anyone wants to bother with the actual facts and know why exactly Putin is now looking, favouring and using the Russian Orthodox church for his own ends, they just need to do their research instead of thinking what they see on the surface, by quick glance, is just true.

    Some quick points to mull over:

    * The Russian Orthodox Church—nostalgic for the leading position it had held in Russian society before the Bolsheviks—soon pushed for a law to restrict, if not ban, the activities of foreign religious workers and of non-orthodox Christians (as well as dissident Orthodox groups).

    * The 1997 Religion Law discriminates among religions and violates Russia’s international commitments under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. It restricts the rights, powers and privileges of smaller, or newer, or foreign religious communities, while giving special status to Russia’s "traditional" religions— primarily Russian Orthodoxy, Judaism, Islam and Buddhism. It also creates an onerous and intrusive registration process

    * Upon taking office this spring, Putin quietly signed a significant and double-edged amendment to the 1997 law. On the positive side, he extended to Dec. 31 of this year the deadline by which religious groups must register with officials. On the negative side, however, he required that unregistered groups be "liquidated" after that date.

    * Vladimir Putin previously threatened the "liquidation" of thousands of religious groups who did not 'register' with his government.

    You tow his religious line or your done for!

    http://religiousfreedom.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=401&Itemid=399

    The band was protesting AGAINST Putin and his insertion into religious affairs.
    They were protesting for a more freedoms in relation to religion within Russia - religions without governmental/Putin interference.

    "Religious Hatred" my arse.
    They were standing up for religions by protesting - against Putin and nothing else except government insertions!


    Another point to ponder - does anyone seriously think the likes of Madonna, Björk and Sir Paul McCartney are going to stand-up for a group of people that are espousing "religious hatred" - seriously?

    Wake up people and see the bigger picture!
    Stop just swallowing the stupid Official Russian government spiel!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    Biggins wrote: »
    * Upon taking office this spring, Putin quietly signed a significant and double-edged amendment to the 1997 law. On the positive side, he extended to Dec. 31 of this year the deadline by which religious groups must register with officials. On the negative side, however, he required that unregistered groups be "liquidated" after that date.

    * Vladimir Putin previously threatened the "liquidation" of thousands of religious groups who did not 'register' with his government.
    You tow his religious line or your done for!
    I don't think the idea of enforcing registration of religious groups is necessarily a bad thing. Especially since many of these groups operate and benefit from public goodwill and sizeable tax breaks akin to most charities.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Biggins wrote: »
    If anyone wants to bother with the actual facts and know why exactly Putin is now looking, favouring and using the Russian Orthodox church for his own ends, they just need to do their research instead of thinking what they see on the surface, by quick glance, is just true.

    Some quick points to mull over:

    * The Russian Orthodox Church—nostalgic for the leading position it had held in Russian society before the Bolsheviks—soon pushed for a law to restrict, if not ban, the activities of foreign religious workers and of non-orthodox Christians (as well as dissident Orthodox groups).

    * The 1997 Religion Law discriminates among religions and violates Russia’s international commitments under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. It restricts the rights, powers and privileges of smaller, or newer, or foreign religious communities, while giving special status to Russia’s "traditional" religions— primarily Russian Orthodoxy, Judaism, Islam and Buddhism. It also creates an onerous and intrusive registration process

    * Upon taking office this spring, Putin quietly signed a significant and double-edged amendment to the 1997 law. On the positive side, he extended to Dec. 31 of this year the deadline by which religious groups must register with officials. On the negative side, however, he required that unregistered groups be "liquidated" after that date.

    * Vladimir Putin previously threatened the "liquidation" of thousands of religious groups who did not 'register' with his government.
    You tow his religious line or your done for!

    http://religiousfreedom.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=401&Itemid=399

    The band was protesting AGAINST Putin and his insertion into religious affairs.
    They were protesting for a more freedoms in relation to religion within Russia - religions without governmental/Putin interference.

    That website is run 'Dan Fefferman, President, International Coalition for Religious Freedom'. = "Daniel G. Fefferman (known as Dan Fefferman) is a prominent member of the Unification Church of the United States, a branch of the international Unification Church, founded by Sun Myung Moon in South Korea in 1954."

    Not exactly my idea of a reliable, impartial, trustworthy source. Notwithstanding the fact that all of the above is irrelevant smoke and mirrors.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Morlar wrote: »
    That website is run 'Dan Fefferman, President, International Coalition for Religious Freedom'. = "Daniel G. Fefferman (known as Dan Fefferman) is a prominent member of the Unification Church of the United States, a branch of the international Unification Church, founded by Sun Myung Moon in South Korea in 1954."

    Not exactly my idea of a reliable, impartial, trustworthy source. Notwithstanding the fact that all of the above is irrelevant smoke and mirrors.

    There are many sites that state the same news facts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Biggins wrote: »
    There are many sites that state the same news facts.

    I think you are confusing facts with opinions or beliefs / views. There are also different opinions, beliefs and views hence putin's widespread support in Russia.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    I don't think the idea of enforcing registration of religious groups is necessarily a bad thing. Especially since many of these groups operate and benefit from public goodwill and sizeable tax breaks akin to most charities.

    Putin is ONLY allowing religions that are (a) so big that they cannot be denied while (b) denying others that are more Russia based because they do not tow the line that Putin wishes.

    Its not enough that Putin wishes to be rid of such opposition leaders like Alexey Navalny and organisations that espouse more freedoms for the Russian people, Putin now wishes to control the religions also within his borders.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Morlar wrote: »
    I think you are confusing facts with opinions or beliefs / views. There are also different opinions, beliefs and views hence putin's widespread support in Russia.

    There is those that vote for Putin - why they vote for him is another question!

    Just as FG here gained not because some say, they were better than FF and/or Enda kenny was/is the best man.

    I think your mixing "support" for Putin with people also maybe voting for him because there was little alternative (thanks in part via Putin and his cohorts many efforts and methods in killing off any possible viable opposition!)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭brimal


    They just got their sentence.

    They each got 2 years.

    Disgrace.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,836 ✭✭✭Colmustard


    brimal wrote: »
    They just got their sentence.

    They each got 2 years.

    Disgrace.

    That is rough and very out of proportion to the said crime.

    Plus it will be a Russian prison famed for their luxury and respect for human right (not fukcen total holes in the earth and hells the worse prisons in the world).


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Biggins wrote: »
    There is those that vote for Putin - why they vote for him is another question!

    Just as FG here gained not because some say, they were better than FF and/or Enda kenny was/is the best man.

    I think your mixing "support" for Putin with people also maybe voting for him because there was little alternative (thanks in part via Putin and his cohorts many efforts and methods in killing off any possible viable opposition!)

    That's not really your call to make, I'd apply that to foreign based NGO's who pump funding into the domestic Russian Political scene with a view to interfere with their internal matters. I'd recommend this for some light reading, it's intended to be critical but I would fully support Putin on this one at least
    New Legislation is a Setback for Russian NGOs
    August 2, 2012 by eJP
    Filed under Life in the FSU Countries, Opinion / Letters
    Leave a Comment

    by Polina Philippova

    Recently, and in great haste, the Russian Parliament adopted a new piece of legislation with a name that would have been appropriate for cold war times: ‘On regulation of activities of the NGOs, which fulfill the functions of “foreign agents”’. Sadly, the name adequately reflects the essence of the law, which presents the biggest threat that the not-for-profit sector has faced in the last 20 years.

    The law requires that all NGOs that have any foreign funding and ‘participate in political activities on the territory of the Russian Federation’ get registered in a special registry with the Ministry of Justice. ‘An NGO is recognized as one … if it participates in the organization and implementation of political activities which aim to influence decisions of state authorities, their policy, as well as in the formation of public opinion …’

    These NGOs, which get voluntarily registered, will have to include this newly acquired status of a ‘foreign agent’ in all their documents, publications and PR materials. There are quite a few other responsibilities that these foreign agents have to fulfill in order to comply with the law. Among other things, they will have to submit reports on their activities quarterly (currently it is once a year) and will undergo an annual audit (now compulsory only for foundations).

    The fate of those NGOs that do not register is even more exciting – their activities can be suspended by authorities for up to 6 months and their bank accounts can be frozen. An NGO is provided with the right to appeal to a court to overrule this suspension and prove that it has not been engaged in ‘political activities’ using foreign money. This task seems to be impossible, and not only because of the notorious corruption of Russian courts. The problem is that the definitions of ‘political activities’ and ‘foreign money’ are drawn so broadly that almost anything can fall under them.

    In fact, this is the first time that the term ‘political activities’ has been defined in Russia at all. Apparently, any attempt to influence public opinion or the decisions of authorities is a political activity. An example of such an activity was presented in between the first and the final hearings of this piece of legislation, when a great number of public organizations – many of which have some foreign grants – publicly expressed their strong concern that this law would damage the not-for-profit sector in Russia, and that it contradicts the Russian constitution. Obviously, they were trying to influence both the decision-making process and public opinion at the same time! If the law had been adopted by then, they all would have been fined, shut down or obliged to wear the label of a foreign agent for all honest people to know that they operate in the interests of some alien and presumably hostile states.

    In fairness there were some changes introduced into the draft in between two readings. Religious, municipal and charitable organizations have been excluded, as have NGOs that work in the fields of culture, healthcare and some other innocent topics. However, education is not in this list and I do not think this is an accidental omission.

    In the global economy, the notion of ‘foreign money’ also leaves lots of space for interpretation. If a Russian firm trades both domestically and internationally or buys Russian or foreign bonds and equities, it can be argued whether its donation to a suspicious NGO is foreign or domestic.

    The idea behind this law is quite transparent – there is a noose hung above all organizations and as long as they wish to continue their operations they should very carefully censor each step they take, and make sure they do not interfere with the state or its individual representatives.

    Russian legislators claim that this law is identical to a certain piece of legislation in the USA. In fact, this is not exactly correct. The Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) is a US law passed in 1938 requiring that agents representing the interests of foreign powers in a ‘political or quasi-political capacity’ disclose their relationship with the foreign government and information about related activities and finances. The act was passed in response to German propaganda in the lead-up to World War II. It was used in 23 criminal cases during the war. In 1966 the Act was amended and narrowed to emphasize agents actually working with foreign powers who sought economic or political advantage by influencing governmental decision-making. This increased the government’s burden of proof and there have been no successful implementations since then.

    The Russian piece of legislation is quite consistent with a number of laws that have been adopted very recently and which seriously infringe basic human rights guaranteed by the Russian constitution – freedom of speech (internet law, libel/defamation law), freedom of assembly (law on meetings) etc. The Russian authorities have laid another brick in the wall, which is meant to protect them from any public control or criticism by civil society institutes. The stronger the public outcry against the draft of this law, the faster legislators worked to adopt it.

    Apparently, a desire to shut down a number of Russian NGOs was so strong that the legislators totally ignored the risks of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Many NGOs that represent different vulnerable groups will think twice now before voicing the problems of their target audiences (for example, in efforts to influence state policy) or apply for foreign financing.

    Well, we all know that any challenge is an opportunity. There is only one bright spot in this grim picture – this threat might help the not-for-profit sector of Russia to consolidate and to learn how to raise funds among the Russian middle class, which so far largely donates only to dying children. Russian NGOs have to convince the general public that their efforts to build a mature civil society and to establish the rule of law in Russia affect every person’s individual well-being. It is a difficult task but it has to be done.

    Polina Philippova is director of programmes and donor relations for CAF Russia.

    Source: http://ejewishphilanthropy.com/new-legislation-is-a-setback-for-russian-ngos/

    He is not popular with billionaire oligarchs or foreign interests but he's the legitimate Russian choice for President & I have not seen anything that would cause me to to question their choice.


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