Croke Park Agreement beyond 2014

Rabidlamb · 16-08-2012 09:51AM #1

Many regard this FF death twitch lifebuoy as a noose upon the state while other see it as a major tool in PS reform.
If nothing else it's provided harmony during dark times.

A few questions if I may.
What month in 2014 does the CPA lapse ?.
Have the unions already begun discussions on it's replacement ?.
What shape would you like to see the new agreement take ?.
Is a new agreement actually needed ?.

femur61 · 16-08-2012 09:58AM

You've started a very contntious issue, can see the thread being closed. Just heard on radio1 that we borrow 55million/day to fund public services so we do need an alternative - wage cuts - not cuts in services.

FANTAPANTS · 16-08-2012 10:05AM

wage cuts!!!!! If the ordinary PDF person takes another cut its dole time. Id say that 40/50% of us are already on FAMILY INCOME SUPPORT if we take any more hits i dont know what will happen :mad:

D1stant · 16-08-2012 10:09AM

Rabidlamb wrote: »

.
What shape would you like to see the new agreement take ?.

Oh perhaps something along the guidlines the rest of society operate under

- perform or get out
- accept market conditions
- accept risk in pensions
- say goodbye to automatic increments

- have the ability to advance much faster than is normal in PS if the performance warrants it

ParkRunner · 16-08-2012 10:09AM

As far as I know unions will start discussing their plans for post Croke Park in September. While the agreement has been heavily criticised some savings & reforms
,including two pay cuts, have been achieved & there has been industrial peace.

The public service will need a combination of new entrants and promotions to fill the many gaps that are starting to emerge as a result of the thousands of early retirements and ever increasing complex demands which are placed on the public service.

In the meantime i would like to see the agreement used to its full extent in terms of redeployment and performance management to make sure resources are used as best as possible.

I expect it will be some time before the exchequer deficit is closed so pay rises to match inflation is probably the most realistic way forward. As many civil/public servants now qualify for FIS any pay cuts would have minimal impact, especially with the raft of compulsory deductions at source.

I anticipate many will disagree with me but I expect that the public service will not be cut a whole lot further as long as there are politicians making economic decisions.

Sleepy · 16-08-2012 11:57AM

The first thing I'd like to see is the application of the new pay scales to existing workers. We're not about to get pay for performance/contribution across the PS so I'd like to see the ministers responsible turn on those who've screwed their junior colleagues.

A teacher who's been in service since the 80/90's is not automatically of such higher quality than a new entrant that they deserve a more generous salary scale on top of their higher position on that scale.

Stuff like this makes an utter farce of collectivised bargaining which is a flawed enough practice in the first instance.

Tea drinker · 16-08-2012 11:58AM

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

wage cuts!!!!! If the ordinary PDF person takes another cut its dole time. Id say that 40/50% of us are already on FAMILY INCOME SUPPORT if we take any more hits i dont know what will happen :mad:

Not knowing your particulr situation but isn't there many alternatives to hitting low income earners as you imply you are?
There are 100's of pseudo quango's with a multitude of the usual suspects floating between them in exceedingly well paid positions in these groups? I wonder how come I haven't held several of directorships but they seem to be given to people with no regard for experience. Where do I put my name down?
A quick google found this, serious diggin needed on many of these, and on adding to the list:
http://quangos-ireland.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Irish_Quangos

After that there are a lot of your colleagues quite well heeled, aren't there? So the only way you will get my support is if ye start shopping the quangoes and push for salary reform. My mood is such that I will go without public services rather than pay more for less. Early retirements for high earners ... on huge pensions is not an increase in efficiency. It means lower earners such as yourself get hit with more work.
We are truly madly deeply fvcked and externally it's getting worse.
If you guys do the heavy lifting we'll back you. If not the reform will come through collapse.

sarumite · 16-08-2012 02:45PM

EF wrote: »

The public service will need a combination of new entrants and promotions to fill the many gaps that are starting to emerge as a result of the thousands of early retirements and ever increasing complex demands which are placed on the public service.

In the meantime i would like to see the agreement used to its full extent in terms of redeployment and performance management to make sure resources are used as best as possible.

I expect it will be some time before the exchequer deficit is closed so pay rises to match inflation is probably the most realistic way forward. As many civil/public servants now qualify for FIS any pay cuts would have minimal impact, especially with the raft of compulsory deductions at source.

I anticipate many will disagree with me but I expect that the public service will not be cut a whole lot further as long as there are politicians making economic decisions.

I would say the emboldened parts are going to be pretty much the arguments made by the unions in any future negotiations on a CPA-2. Although considering the pay cuts were not actually part of the CPA and the biggest savings came from early retirement, I am not sure how new entrants and promotions would work in terms of savings.

galway2007 · 16-08-2012 03:04PM

D1stant wrote: »

Oh perhaps something along the guidlines the rest of society operate under

- perform or get out
- accept market conditions
- accept risk in pensions
- say goodbye to automatic increments

- have the ability to advance much faster than is normal in PS if the performance warrants it

God are you still living in a fools world
Labour are in government and both party will be facing 2014 local election
Now can you see any politician changing the croke park deal???
They will come up with some more so called reform but they will not risk strikes etc.
Where is Leo now???

galway2007 · 16-08-2012 03:27PM

Sleepy wrote: »

The first thing I'd like to see is the application of the new pay scales to existing workers. We're not about to get pay for performance/contribution across the PS so I'd like to see the ministers responsible turn on those who've screwed their junior colleagues.

A teacher who's been in service since the 80/90's is not automatically of such higher quality than a new entrant that they deserve a more generous salary scale on top of their higher position on that scale.

Stuff like this makes an utter farce of collectivised bargaining which is a flawed enough practice in the first instance.

What I want to see is a reverse ofbenchmarking 1 and 2

So I would suggest that they would first ofall reverse the pay cut and at same time reverse benchmarking

Benchmarking was managers awarding managersmassive wage increases

Benchmarking1

Principal Officer 11.7%

Assistant principle officer 13.8%

Clerical officer (lowest paid) 8.5%

Lab technician 3%

Nurse manager 3 15%

Nurse 8%

Benchmarking2

Principle office 1.1% (none to any othergrade)

Executive officer local authority 5%

Nurse manager 3 6.8% (none to you frontline nurse)

Nurse 0%

n97 mini · 16-08-2012 04:06PM

What Leo Varadkar said:
Provision for pay cuts
Provision for involuntary redundancy

Head The Wall · 16-08-2012 05:32PM

galway2007 wrote: »

What I want to see is a reverse ofbenchmarking 1 and 2

So I would suggest that they would first ofall reverse the pay cut and at same time reverse benchmarking

Benchmarking was managers awarding managersmassive wage increases

Benchmarking1

Principal Officer 11.7%

Assistant principle officer 13.8%

Clerical officer (lowest paid) 8.5%

Lab technician 3%

Nurse manager 3 15%

Nurse 8%

Benchmarking2

Principle office 1.1% (none to any othergrade)

Executive officer local authority 5%

Nurse manager 3 6.8% (none to you frontline nurse)

Nurse 0%

Those at the top have had the biggest paycuts while those at the bottom get paid way above market value for what they do. Based on the ESRI report it's at the bottom we should start

ESRI - The Public-Private Sector Pay Gap in Ireland: What Lies Beneath?

Brussels Sprout · 16-08-2012 09:21PM

Sleepy wrote: »

The first thing I'd like to see is the application of the new pay scales to existing workers. We're not about to get pay for performance/contribution across the PS so I'd like to see the ministers responsible turn on those who've screwed their junior colleagues.

A teacher who's been in service since the 80/90's is not automatically of such higher quality than a new entrant that they deserve a more generous salary scale on top of their higher position on that scale.

Stuff like this makes an utter farce of collectivised bargaining which is a flawed enough practice in the first instance.

This will never happen for the simple reason that all of the union leaders are drawn from the more senior workers. Screw the newbies, I'm alright Jack.

Farmer Pudsey · 16-08-2012 10:31PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Those at the top have had the biggest paycuts while those at the bottom get paid way above market value for what they do. Based on the ESRI report it's at the bottom we should start

ESRI - The Public-Private Sector Pay Gap in Ireland: What Lies Beneath?

I would take no notice of the ERSI all you have to do is see the difference in pay between judges, consultants and top CS and there counterparts in Germany, France etc.

Head The Wall · 16-08-2012 10:57PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I would take no notice of the ERSI all you have to do is see the difference in pay between judges, consultants and top CS and there counterparts in Germany, France etc.

Whats your reason for ignoring that report? is it a case of cut everyone but me or someone close to me.

Anyone that's overpaid should be looked at, judges and top PS included. Cutting the few at the top who have had the largest cuts so far will only save so much, so yes we should cut them and all others who are overpaid.

femur61 · 17-08-2012 06:06AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I would take no notice of the ERSI all you have to do is see the difference in pay between judges, consultants and top CS and there counterparts in Germany, France etc.

I have been saying this point for so long. How can we borrow 55 million a day - why are we still been lent this money?

17-08-2012 08:21AM

femur61 wrote: »

I have been saying this point for so long. How can we borrow 55 million a day - why are we still been lent this money?

Can you provide some additional information about this borrowing €55 million please. The I heard it on the radio isnt the best source and I would like to see for myself how this figure is reached.

galway2007 · 17-08-2012 08:32AM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Those at the top have had the biggest paycuts while those at the bottom get paid way above market value for what they do. Based on the ESRI report it's at the bottom we should start

ESRI - The Public-Private Sector Pay Gap in Ireland: What Lies Beneath?

I am proposing giving them back the pay cut first

Read the report and take a look at % increase

We have a crap public service and those running it rewarded themselves inbenchmarking one and two. Managers awarding managers pay increases.

Reverse benchmarking now and also remove about 50% of the managers as thereis no need for them.

Management / senior positions were created for no reason and once theybecame a manager they were over paid and sit behind desks.

17-08-2012 08:52AM

galway2007 wrote: »

I am proposing giving them back the pay cut first

Read the report and take a look at % increase

We have a crap public service and those running it rewarded themselves inbenchmarking one and two. Managers awarding managers pay increases.

Reverse benchmarking now and also remove about 50% of the managers as thereis no need for them.

Management / senior positions were created for no reason and once theybecame a manager they were over paid and sit behind desks.

When you have no facts just generalise.

Brussels Sprout · 17-08-2012 09:13AM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Can you provide some additional information about this borrowing €55 million please. The I heard it on the radio isnt the best source and I would like to see for myself how this figure is reached.

I think this figure is thrown around a lot as the budget deficit was 20 billion last year and 20 billion divided by 365 amounts to 55 million a day (which is borrowed from the Bailout fund). A more realistic figure would be 33 million a day since 8 billion of that deficit was bank-related. Also this 33 million a day is used to fund everything from social welfare to capital spending as well as public sector wages. Overpaid workers in the public sector are just part of the problem along with overly generous welfare and a low tax take.

deise blue · 17-08-2012 09:48AM

When it comes to negotiating terms & conditions the outcome is generally hugely influenced by the quality of the cards held by the negotiating parties.

PS employees via their unions would appear to have the better hand currently.

1. A hugely unionised workforce
2. The fact that the question of Public Sector reform has been handed to the Labour Party.
3. The fact that all reports to date have shown that the CPA is delivering , reports that the Government have been happy to accept.
4. The fact that Mr. Varadkar has effectively been gagged.

It would appear that the Government are the most anxious of the 2 parties to raise the question of a CPA 2 - perhaps the Unions are more than happy to keep their powder dry until closer to the end of the current agreement ?

sarumite · 17-08-2012 10:25AM

deise blue wrote: »

When it comes to negotiating terms & conditions the outcome is generally hugely influenced by the quality of the cards held by the negotiating parties.

PS employees via their unions would appear to have the better hand currently.

1. A hugely unionised workforce
2. The fact that the question of Public Sector reform has been handed to the Labour Party.
3. The fact that all reports to date have shown that the CPA is delivering , reports that the Government have been happy to accept.
4. The fact that Mr. Varadkar has effectively been gagged.

It would appear that the Government are the most anxious of the 2 parties to raise the question of a CPA 2 - perhaps the Unions are more than happy to keep their powder dry until closer to the end of the current agreement ?

PS employees always have the better hand (and not just currently). Their employer is the state, i.e. the government which is made up of elected politicians who are more concerned with getting re-elected. The fact that the government chose the economically unwise decision of gutting capital expenditure instead of the politically difficult decision of genuine reform of the PS or SW shows where there priorities lie imo.

Farmer Pudsey · 17-08-2012 11:02AM

deise blue wrote: »

1. A hugely unionised workforce
2. The fact that the question of Public Sector reform has been handed to the Labour Party.
3. The fact that all reports to date have shown that the CPA is delivering , reports that the Government have been happy to accept.
4. The fact that Mr. Varadkar has effectively been gagged.
QUOTE]

It is veyr easy to blame the labour party however the CPA was put in place by FF. Look at present FG want to prevent the any wealth means testing of college grants as it effects there constituenty.

Accross europe all CS staff are heavily unionised, and in germany both PS workers and those in the private sector are all in Unions I believe. The IFA, IBEC and the group represint SME's are also unions. And a lot of the top officials in unions were of a FF background.

FG accept the CPA reports as well I did not see FG insist on taking Social Welfare and giving Joan Bruton finance.
If Mr Vradaker has an issue he should speak out like John Mcguniness did

Head The Wall wrote: »

Whats your reason for ignoring that report? is it a case of cut everyone but me or someone close to me.

Anyone that's overpaid should be looked at, judges and top PS included. Cutting the few at the top who have had the largest cuts so far will only save so much, so yes we should cut them and all others who are overpaid.

The reason I would ignore it is in your orginal post you stated that those at the top took the biggest pay cuts and those at the bottom got payed above market value and you used the ERSI report to back it up.

The impression I got was that you believed that senior CS are not over paid because they took larger pay cuts. The reality is that they took pay cuts of less than 5% more in real terms than lower paid staff when tax was taken into account and also I believe that they kept there bonus scheme.

Lower CS such as clerical officers and assistant CO got very little under bench marking I believe, It was Senior CS anf Guards and teachers that were the benficerys. Maybe not the guards as they got a sweetheart deal from FF in the early noughties after the blue Flu.

Also it is obsene to see the level of pensions that Senior CS's/politicains/Oqango executive's retire on the max pension that any PS should get should be 50K as if you are earning above 100K you should finance it your self

Geuze · 17-08-2012 11:08AM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Can you provide some additional information about this borrowing €55 million please. The I heard it on the radio isnt the best source and I would like to see for myself how this figure is reached.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/meb%202012/August2012.pdf

See page 13 of this DoF monthly economic bulletin.

The forecast 2012 Gen Govt deficit is 13,117m.

That's 36m per day of a deficit in the public finances.

17-08-2012 11:35AM

Geuze wrote: »

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/meb%202012/August2012.pdf

See page 13 of this DoF monthly economic bulletin.

The forecast 2012 Gen Govt deficit is 13,117m.

That's 36m per day of a deficit in the public finances.

So its not as the poster stated €55 million a day borrowed to fund public services.
Its €36m a day to fund the entire state, and there are many more issues related to that than just public sector pay.

sarumite · 17-08-2012 11:44AM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So its not as the poster stated €55 million a day borrowed to fund public services.
Its €36m a day to fund the entire state, and there are many more issues related to that than just public sector pay.

The 55 million included bank debt I believe. Also, the poster did imply that it was to fund the entire state, and not just public sector pay.

17-08-2012 12:18PM

sarumite wrote: »

The 55 million included bank debt I believe. Also, the poster did imply that it was to fund the entire state, and not just public sector pay.

Perhaps when they are referring to public services and by that meaning public service pay, welfare, interest on the bank loans and other costs of state.
I dont think thats how I would use the term "public services" though especially not in a thread about the CPA.

femur61 wrote: »

You've started a very contntious issue, can see the thread being closed. Just heard on radio1 that we borrow 55million/day to fund public services so we do need an alternative - wage cuts - not cuts in services.

Sleepy · 17-08-2012 01:27PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

This will never happen for the simple reason that all of the union leaders are drawn from the more senior workers. Screw the newbies, I'm alright Jack.

Which is why, were I Ruari Quinn, I wouldn't include the unions in the conversation. I'd simply inform the teachers and announce it to the press.

The teachers unions actions in this are indefensible, they'd get next-to-no support from the public and should they strike, there's plenty of qualified teachers who would be only too happy to work at the new rates. A good case in point would be Evelyn O' Connor who was awarded the Secondary School Teacher of the Year this year link.

To be fair, I'd be more tactical about it than that: I'd slightly increase the rates for the new teachers and then move all the teachers onto that scale. Divide and conquer.

sarumite · 17-08-2012 01:32PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Perhaps when they are referring to public services and by that meaning public service pay, welfare, interest on the bank loans and other costs of state.
I dont think thats how I would use the term "public services" though especially not in a thread about the CPA.

Fair enough. Outside of bank debt (which is why we are now referring to the corrected €36 million), it could be argued everything from SW to PS pay etc is a 'public service'. That was how I read it anyway. On boards.ie I tend to find people are far more specific and will state "PS pay" as opposed to "public services" when specifically referring to PS pay.

galway2007 · 17-08-2012 01:44PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

When you have no facts just generalise.

Go read the benchmarking reports and you might be able to understand the facts

Jogathon · 17-08-2012 01:55PM

Well, I know that Ireland is in dire straits, but teachers, gardaí and nurses etc are not on fantastic money.

I am a teacher, have a huge mortgage (bought in 2006), have had my take-home pay cut dramatically with two paycuts and the pension levy (the pension levy alone means that I'm down €250 every month) and I seriously struggle to make ends meet. Any more cuts and I'll have to sell my house cos I won't be able to afford the mortgage.

Croke Park Agreement beyond 2014

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