Who cares about the Leaving Cert?

Ficheall · 15-08-2012 02:20PM

Diapason wrote: »

I know lots of people who didn't give a sh*t about the Leaving Cert, who performed below their ability, and who now feel trapped in dead-end jobs, though.

I know lots of people who did well in their Leaving Cert, got a degree, and now can't get any jobs at all - do those two groups cancel each other out?

I learned more (academically) in my 5 years of Leaving Cert preparation than I did in my eight years of college.

Ficheall · 15-08-2012 02:22PM

Carson10 wrote: »

The only people today who are moaning about the leaving cert are the people who failed it. These are the people that are posting up on FB things such as "doesnt matter if you failed or passed, just enjoy your night, and stupid pictures like, Bill Gates failed his exams now hes the owner of microsoft.

These were the people who caused havoc at school disrupted class, were bad mannered towards teachers, never done their homework and went out of their way to make other students lifes misery.

That's quite the bull**** generalisation you have there.

Carson10 · 15-08-2012 02:23PM

has any1 ever repeated the leaving when they got to say 27/28 that wants to be a Vet or DR.?

Remember writing a foolscaped page for a leaving cert answer seemed like climing a mountain.

steddyeddy · 15-08-2012 02:25PM

Carson10 wrote: »

Personally i think the Leaving Cert really does shape your future, but its hard to see that when your 17/18.

The only people today who are moaning about the leaving cert are the people who failed it. These are the people that are posting up on FB things such as "doesnt matter if you failed or passed, just enjoy your night, and stupid pictures like, Bill Gates failed his exams now hes the owner of microsoft.

These were the people who caused havoc at school disrupted class, were bad mannered towards teachers, never done their homework and went out of their way to make other students lifes misery. And before you ask, no i wasnt bullied at school, but saw it all happen.

Anyways all i know is that iam happy i worked hard at school and got a good leaving cert/University education and now have the job i want. Puts a smile on my face every time i drive through town and see 'the trouble makers/failers from my school days" in their tracksuits pushing prams heading for the dole.

Thats a black and white opinion shaped by a black and white exam. Many people academics didnt do great in the leaving cert. They did acccess courses and went in as a mature student.

The syllabuses for the science students are crazy and dumbed down to a large level. They in know way indicate who will make the best scientist. Also while you may have had good teachers many people do not.

Its definatly not down to trouble makers. I was a natural scientist and do extremely well in college. Nothing in the leaving cert good test that.

Carson10 · 15-08-2012 02:25PM

Ficheall wrote: »

That's quite the bull**** generalisation you have there.

maybe bull for you but its not for me. suppose the TRUTH hurts

Gee Bag · 15-08-2012 02:27PM

SocSocPol wrote: »

International Baccalaureate, Some english private schools have switched to this.

http://www.ibo.org/

"The IB Diploma Programme is designed as an academically challenging and balanced programme of education with final examinations that prepares students, normally aged 16 to 19, for success at university and life beyond. The programme is normally taught over two years and has gained recognition and respect from the world's leading universities."

Thanks SocSocPol,

I had heard of the I.B. before. I kind of assumed it was meant for the children of diplomats or business people who were spending a relativley short period of time in a foreign country. I was specifically interested in the history curriculum, some of which appears to be quite good. However, I think there's a lot to be said for students learning the history, civics and language of the country they live in.

The IBO don't really do what the OP was suggesting i.e. administer the entire education system of a country.

Thats my two cents anyway.........

Ficheall · 15-08-2012 02:32PM

Carson10 wrote: »

maybe bull for you but its not for me. suppose the TRUTH hurts

Is this bit supposed to suggest that I fit your earlier description, and that I must therefore be bitter about how enlightened and successful you are? Is that really where you're going with that?

Gurgle · 15-08-2012 02:33PM

Ficheall wrote: »

I know lots of people who did well in their Leaving Cert, got a degree, and now can't get any jobs at all - do those two groups cancel each other out?

I learned more (academically) in my 5 years of Leaving Cert preparation than I did in my eight years of college.

Did you spend those 8 years in the same college as your unemployed graduate friends?

This says more about the college/course than the Leaving Cert.
I learned more in first year engineering than in secondary school.

As for what the leaving cert is worth:
With it you can get into entry level jobs in a wide variety of employment, from factory worker to retail to office admin.
You can get into college / university / PLC courses.

Without it you are limited to the dole, unskilled labour or nepotism to make a living.

stevenmu · 15-08-2012 02:35PM

Father Damo wrote: »

Could not disagree more. I fail to see why a complete idiot who manages to wing four years in college deserves a well paid management position that they are ill equipped for when a bloke who had better things to be doing in their teen years than cramming for exams but who has a vastly superior intellect in terms of literature, history, politics, general knowledge, common sense, organisational skills

"Oh hi, I'm a genius. I can't prove it because I have better things to do, mostly drinking I presume, but really I am great. I'd like to be CEO please".

At least the "complete idiot" who manages to "wing their way" through college, has demonstrated a level of competency, and demonstrated that they can actually accomplish and deliver on something.

That's the whole point of the leaving cert, and other exams. They're not there to prove how intelligent you are, they are to prove that you have learned and can put that knowledge into practice. If you can't prove that because you have "better things to be doing", then why should anybody think you will be capable of doing anything?

Carson10 · 15-08-2012 02:38PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Thats a black and white opinion shaped by a black and white exam. Many people academics didnt do great in the leaving cert. They did acccess courses and went in as a mature student.

The syllabuses for the science students are crazy and dumbed down to a large level. They in know way indicate who will make the best scientist. Also while you may have had good teachers many people do not.

Its definatly not down to trouble makers. I was a natural scientist and do extremely well in college. Nothing in the leaving cert good test that.

Well the school i went to was a VEC in the Northwest. The students were either from nearby rural areas or extreme town. The teachers were rubbish tbh and spent most of their time disciplining students from town who were out of control. Believe me, ive seen everything. Nowadays i dont see how fellow students from my year are doing on FB, i check the local paper for them in court appearance and jail sentences.

I do agree though that the leaving Cert in no way reflects or shapes you for your chosen career, but it does separate the good from the bad. My initial comment was directed at those moaning about doing good in the leaving, because they know they done **** because they didnt do an ounce of work and mainly caused trouble..Look ive seen it first hand.

Martyn1989 · 15-08-2012 03:10PM

blakfact wrote: »

People like to pretend it's important, but the moment you step outside of Ireland, it has little to no meaning. Good luck trying to get into a real University with a Leaving Cert. You think Cambridge and Oxford let people with 600 Irish points into their courses? Think again. It's not worth the paper it's written on, and the Unions know this.

I know 2 people who got into Cambridge with the Irish leaving cert

ViveLaVie · 15-08-2012 03:17PM

Carson10 wrote: »

Personally i think the Leaving Cert really does shape your future, but its hard to see that when your 17/18.

The only people today who are moaning about the leaving cert are the people who failed it. These are the people that are posting up on FB things such as "doesnt matter if you failed or passed, just enjoy your night, and stupid pictures like, Bill Gates failed his exams now hes the owner of microsoft.

These were the people who caused havoc at school disrupted class, were bad mannered towards teachers, never done their homework and went out of their way to make other students lifes misery. And before you ask, no i wasnt bullied at school, but saw it all happen.

Anyways all i know is that iam happy i worked hard at school and got a good leaving cert/University education and now have the job i want. Puts a smile on my face every time i drive through town and see 'the trouble makers/failers from my school days" in their tracksuits pushing prams heading for the dole.

Er no...not true. A lot of people just see it for what it is, a test of memory and diligence and not an accurate measure of intelligence. And before you ask, I did very well in my LC.

It's good that you're happy about your achievements but I think looking down on others who didn't achieve the same is quite horrible. Just remember it could be you queuing for the dole one day. I know too many people to count who have excellent degrees and even Ph.Ds who can't get jobs.

Gurgle · 15-08-2012 03:30PM

ViveLaVie wrote: »

looking down on others who didn't achieve the same is quite horrible. Just remember it could be you queuing for the dole one day.

Looking down on people who tried and failed is horrible. Looking down on people who have never done an hours work in their life is perfectly appropriate.

It could be you.
For the people Carson10 is referring to, it was never could.

Damn right look down on them, and point them out to your kids.
"I went to school with him, he was nothing but a nuisance and a messer. Now look at him."

SocSocPol · 15-08-2012 03:34PM

Martyn1989 wrote: »

I know 2 people who got into Cambridge with the Irish leaving cert

Professor(Emeritus) PJ Drudy not only got into it, but he became a Fellow of Cambridge. I know a few people who have studied there.
That said I do not believe the LC is fit for purpose in the 21st Century.

Ficheall · 15-08-2012 03:49PM

Gurgle wrote: »

For the people Carson10 is referring to...

...everyone who complains about the Leaving Cert, oui?

Feisar · 15-08-2012 03:52PM

Who cares? my Mother cares, my little brother is after doing another disastrous leaving and she is really upset. Like the lad failed Ag Science. I wouldn't mind if he wasn't the brightest but he just has no interest in applying himself at all.

Diapason · 15-08-2012 03:53PM

SocSocPol wrote: »

That said I do not believe the LC is fit for purpose in the 21st Century.

I think the problem is that the LC has more than one "purpose", and it's going to be next to impossible to make one set of exams fit for all of them.

Gurgle · 15-08-2012 05:01PM

Ficheall wrote: »

...everyone who complains about the Leaving Cert, oui?

Carson10 wrote:

disciplining students from town who were out of control
Nowadays i dont see how fellow students from my year are doing on FB, i check the local paper for them in court appearance and jail sentences.
they know they done **** because they didnt do an ounce of work and mainly caused trouble

Tip:
After you've skimmed over or skipped a page of comments, it's possible to go back and read the details. This saves on guessing what was said.

I have plenty of complaints about the leaving cert and how its run, but I have seen nothing constructive on this thread on how to improve it. Just the usual keyboard warrior 'blame someone' whinefest.

Ficheall · 15-08-2012 05:29PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Ficheall wrote: »

...everyone who complains about the Leaving Cert, oui?

Tip:
After you've skimmed over or skipped a page of comments, it's possible to go back and read the details.

Carson10 wrote: »

The only people today who are moaning about the leaving cert are the people who failed it.

To quote a great man:

Gurgle wrote: »

Tip:
After you've skimmed over or skipped a page of comments, it's possible to go back and read the details.

1ZRed · 15-08-2012 05:49PM

I'm not the Leaving Cert's biggest fan but I honestly don't know how to improve it because it's never going to suit everyone whatever way they do it.

What I don't like though is how last year, before the syllabus was changed for a lot of subjects, the exams were marked harder and this year, with a much more revised and slimmed down curriculum, it had been marked less intensively.
I did my leaving last year and I felt a bit cheated because in a lot of regards, the biology, Maths and Irish were less difficult than what they were just a year ago.

That's my only complaint, and I know it has no real relevance in the thread, but I suppose I'm highlighting the inconsistencies of the exams more than anything.

CavanCrew · 15-08-2012 06:14PM

Better than the system in the UK, we have a higher rate of students going onto 3rd level education. JS.

Ficheall · 15-08-2012 06:25PM

CavanCrew wrote: »

Better than the system in the UK, we have a higher rate of students going onto 3rd level education. JS.

Only because our third-level education system is a bit of a joke...

somefeen · 15-08-2012 06:30PM

Well I didnt do any leaving cert but still managed to get onto a science degree course at age 20 with my D in JC science and a barely relevant FETAC course.
No way was I prepared for university level study so in that regard the LC has its uses. Apart from that I don't see the point tbh.

Owen_S · 15-08-2012 06:49PM

I care since I got my results today, but one thing I have to say is that the media focus on 'points' is disgusting. The endless education features in the broadsheets around the exams and results are just a gimmick to sell more papers to over-expectant parents, and somehow they buy into it each year.

Do they really think that a story about a grind-school educated student who repeated and then achieved 600 points is going to help? The features focus on developing systems to succeed in a system, neglecting true education and understanding.

CavanCrew · 15-08-2012 07:04PM

Ficheall wrote: »

Only because our third-level education system is a bit of a joke...

How so?

Eoin247 · 15-08-2012 07:23PM

Ficheall wrote: »

Only because our third-level education system is a bit of a joke...

CavanCrew wrote: »

How so?

Am interested as to why you feel this way too. I always thought that out of the three levels it was run the best in general.

Ficheall · 15-08-2012 08:28PM

Eoin247 wrote: »

Am interested as to why you feel this way too. I always thought that out of the three levels it was run the best in general.

The best run as a business, yes. This probably isn't the place for the discussion, but third-level education in Ireland seems to be largely like a big vending machine into which you put your money and receive an end-product with a generic "quality certificate" which doesn't really reflect the actual quality of the product. Colleges' aim is to process as many students as possible. Quantity over quality ftw.

randylonghorn · 15-08-2012 08:41PM

blakfact wrote: »

It's a joke of an exam. None of the material is audited by international standards

How many countries have their final second-level exams audited "by (sic) international standards"?

How were these international standards agreed? By whom?

blakfact wrote: »

and the people who design and implement these exams, aka, overpaid work shy public sector workers, are unaccountable to the other citizens of this country.

In what way should they be accountable? Should those who set the LC exams be publicly named after the results to give parents and students an opportunity to give them feedback? Can you not see the obvious problem that would cause?

blakfact wrote: »

In short when you consider project maths, Union strikes, holidays and everything else associated to the Leaving Cert, the whole thing is a bloody joke.

Actually ... what union strikes?!

blakfact wrote: »

Good luck trying to get into a real University with a Leaving Cert. You think Cambridge and Oxford let people with 600 Irish points into their courses? Think again.

What?

A large number of Irish students each year access universities outside the country, most commonly in the UK for obvious geographical reasons, and including Oxford, Cambridge, Andrews etc.

And how do you define a "real" university? I'm really interested to know tbh!

blakfact wrote: »

What Ireland needs to do, is abolish all state exams, and give the responsibility of exams at the end of school to an internationally recognised body capable of actually designing a proper system. The teachers then simply teach to that system. The public sector does not deserve the ability to actually create their own exams, because they aren't properly audited:mad:

Again, what "internationally recognised body" has been designated and agreed internationally as a standard-setter for end-of-second-level exams? There are many "internationally recognised bodies" in education and training, but none of them fit this profile. Even the International Baccalaureate Organisation, an admirable organisation, does not claim any such thing: it is an international foundation originally set up to provide flexible education for the children of diplomats and others whose high level of international mobility made it difficult for their children to have a consistent educational experience without shoving them into a boarding school for years on end, separated from their parents, and it has developed from there.

There are aspects of the LC system which I would be quite critical of myself, but tbh this just comes across as an unresearched and ill-thought-out rant, I'm afraid.

blakfact wrote: »

The worlds most respected Education systems like Finland and South Korea, outlaw CA for good measure.

Evidence that South Korea has one of the world's most respected education systems, please?

Carson10 wrote: »

The teachers were rubbish tbh and spent most of their time disciplining students from town who were out of control ...

Perhaps the first factor was at least partly determined by the second? If parents took on the responsibility of parents, disciplined their children or better yet, brought them up to be self-disciplined, perhaps fewer teachers would be required to be a combination of policeman and prison warder?

Owen_S wrote: »

I care since I got my results today, but one thing I have to say is that the media focus on 'points' is disgusting. The endless education features in the broadsheets around the exams and results are just a gimmick to sell more papers to over-expectant parents, and somehow they buy into it each year.

Do they really think that a story about a grind-school educated student who repeated and then achieved 600 points is going to help? The features focus on developing systems to succeed in a system, neglecting true education and understanding.

I agree, and I think you've shifted the focus to the bigger problem: the points system and in particular the hysteria which surrounds it. Schools are more and more forced to teach to maximise points (insofar as they can do so) rather than to maximise educational development and attainment.

The big issue however remains to identify a better system than the points system ... and, at the moment, one which doesn't involve huge extra cost, which unfortunately more or less strangles that discussion before it begins.

Miss Lockhart · 15-08-2012 08:51PM

God OP, what a load of tripe.

Personally I think the LC is simply a means to an end - an attempt to objectively measure academic ability and commitment for colleges and employers. It's not the be all and end all - there are many ways around it - but it serves a purpose. It's not without its faults but plenty of fairly important people/institutions care about it.

Btw, I was accepted to Oxford on the back of my LC results (turned it down as I got my first choice in a different subject area here and also on financial grounds) and was offered post grad study in Cornell, who as it happens, were also interested in my LC and not just my degree.

Good luck and congrats to all the LCs today. Don't give up if you didn't get what you hoped.

partyatmygaff · 15-08-2012 09:15PM

blakfact wrote: »

It's a joke of an exam. None of the material is audited by international standards, and the people who design and implement these exams, aka, overpaid work shy public sector workers, are unaccountable to the other citizens of this country.

What international standards? Second-level exams only really have one purpose and that is college admission. The exams are of a certain difficulty and both domestic and foreign colleges inspect the exams and set a minimum standard for admission. No international standards exist because they aren't required.

People like to pretend it's important, but the moment you step outside of Ireland, it has little to no meaning. Good luck trying to get into a real University with a Leaving Cert. You think Cambridge and Oxford let people with 600 Irish points into their courses? Think again. It's not worth the paper it's written on, and the Unions know this.

You seem to be completely clueless about the Leaving Cert and college admissions. A huge amount of universities in the world accept the LC as an entry requirement including most of the Top 50 universities in the world.

What Ireland needs to do, is abolish all state exams, and give the responsibility of exams at the end of school to an internationally recognised body capable of actually designing a proper system. The teachers then simply teach to that system. The public sector does not deserve the ability to actually create their own exams, because they aren't properly audited:mad:

No other country in the world needs foreign auditing of their state exams. Our LC/CAO system isn't perfect but it's far better than a lot of other systems.

Who cares about the Leaving Cert?

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