National Identity Card

Nate--IRL-- · 06-08-2012 09:44PM

What are the benefits of an ID card?

Nate

Solair · 06-08-2012 09:46PM

It'd be handy to be able to prove your ID when you need to.
It's getting a bit tiresome to have to keep producing two utility bills and a passport and a letter from your granny everytime you want to open an account.

I don't think we should have to carry ID but, a card would be handy!

I think we could have a card without the police state bit that tends to go with it in some EU countries.

Logical_Bear · 06-08-2012 09:47PM

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

"Can I see your ID?"

"Dont have one,didnt relise I needed one"

"Ok, so that didnt work....plan b- a ha random drug search!"

"empty your pockets"

"no you empty them,I'm not doing your job for you"

"dont make us get out of our car"

"ok" pats pockets "empty guards"

"ah ffs" opens doors,stands beside you and searchs

"ok you can go now,behave yourself"

"I was behaving myself"

"dont get smart"

"I wasnt gettin"

"I said dont get smart.Im gonna arrest you for failiong to obey a garda instruction"

thats normaly howe it plays out:pac:

Nate--IRL-- · 06-08-2012 09:50PM

Solair wrote: »

It'd be handy to be able to prove your ID when you need to.
It's getting a bit tiresome to have to keep producing two utility bills and a passport and a letter from your granny everytime you want to open an account.

I don't think we should have to carry ID but, a card would be handy!

I think we could have a card without the police state bit that tends to go with it in some EU countries.

So it would be "two utility bills and a passport ID Card and a letter from your granny". now?

I still don't see the benefit.

Nate

RustyNut · 06-08-2012 09:52PM

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

What are the benefits of an ID card?

Nate

More work for forgers.

Mr. Manager · 06-08-2012 09:58PM

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

So it would be "two utility bills and a passport ID Card and a letter from your granny". now?

I still don't see the benefit.

Nate

Your ID card would also display your address.

The one I have has on the front:

My picture
My ID card number
My name
My address
My signature

On the back it has:

My DOB
My birth place
My nationality
My sex
and the validity of the card.

The card I posses cuts out so much bullsh!t it's unreal. I opened a bank with nothing but this card. I rented a property with this card (no reference or anything else needed) . I rented a boat with this card.

Goro · 06-08-2012 09:58PM

Stripey Cat wrote: »

It bothers me. Why should I (and anyone else who doesn't want this) be forced to adopt it?

There has to be a compromise between security/Policing and freedom.

A completely free and liberal society = Anarchy.

You acknowledge a police force and the need for one so what would be wrong with assisting them in their job by showing your hypothetical ID card when asked?

You regularly carry a pocket full of hash or something?

Logical_Bear · 06-08-2012 10:11PM

Goro wrote: »

You acknowledge a police force and the need for one so what would be wrong with assisting them in their job by showing your hypothetical ID card when asked?

You regularly carry a pocket full of hash or something?

why you tying not wanting to having an ID card with having a pocket full of dope?

The guards stop people randomly at the moment,they'll search you anyway(I like to think they are genuine but sometimes I get the distinct impression they are waiting for you to kick off over them behaving like pr1cks) and having a card wont stop them doing that,it'll just be another think for them to pull you up on.

Logical_Bear · 06-08-2012 10:23PM

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

I opened a bank with nothing but this card. I rented a property with this card (no reference or anything else needed) . I rented a boat with this card.

and seriously if you lose it or your wallet gets stolen you could be fukked.Dont under estimate the criminal element they can/will be well able to forge it.
Yeah you can cancel the card and get a new one but the only thing that will change is number of the card

starlit · 06-08-2012 10:39PM

I think its worth having though.

Anita Blow · 06-08-2012 10:40PM

Goro wrote: »

There has to be a compromise between security/Policing and freedom.

A completely free and liberal society = Anarchy.

You acknowledge a police force and the need for one so what would be wrong with assisting them in their job by showing your hypothetical ID card when asked?

You regularly carry a pocket full of hash or something?

Where does the compromise end though?
We are living in that compromise now and we generally have a low crime rate.
For example, while it's only one part of crime as a whole, we have one of the lowest homicide rates. The UK on the other hand, which is known for it's draconian laws and culture, has a higher homicide rate than us.
I'm not saying that this is because of ID Cards or anything, but my point is that a crime-free society will never happen. It's an ideal and it always will be, but it will constantly be dangled infront of voters by governments who want more power.
Going back to the UK as an example, it has seen it's homicide rate increase from 1.17 during the 2000s to 1.23 this year despite the increase in government surveillance, strict crime laws etc. and yet the UK government will still seek to increase it's power and use this increase in crime as a reason.

We are a country with relatively low-crime and we have done it without the need for ID Cards.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all, but I do think people have a duty to scrutinise their own government and know when it is asking for an unreasonable amount of power. The past has shown us how ID Cards can be used maliciously (Nazi Germany, Rwanda etc.) and you have to be completely ignorant to think it could never happen again. Even in our own country, after the extent of corruption our politicians have shown, people should be wary about allowing them to implement policies like this.

I'd be supportive of an ID System like France, where it's non-compulsory and free. All I'm opposed to is it being compulsory and if it were to have invasive information on it.

Mint Sauce · 06-08-2012 10:47PM

I'm with the arguement that if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear or be worried about. If you got a new passport in the last 5 or 6 years ago, their is already aload of electronic data on it about you, the same also applys to many smart cards that people might use for different reasons.

Could also replace the other countless state/goverment issued cards we carry, social security, european medical insurance card, medical card or driver licence for those entitled to one.

OU812 wrote: »

We should have had one by now, they'll probably mess up the implementation & yes it should be mandatory to carry & produce if requested.

It should be readable & also serve as driving licence etc

New CC style drivers licences next year would possibly be the prototype for one, if not also acting as one.

hoodwinked wrote: »

i thought we were getting this in the form of a credit card like driving licence,

i was told they'd be in before this year is out!

Under EU directives the new style drivers licence will be out from January 2013. Only to new applicants though, exsiting licence holders will have to apply for the new style ones.

keith16 · 06-08-2012 10:50PM

SocSocPol wrote: »

Very strong arguements:
a lot of other EU countries have them
- it's more convenient to carry vs. a passport
- we could get rid of the age cards

Everyone should have ID on them, why shouldn't they.

You haven't answered my question.

And yes, the above are terribly weak IMO - a lot of countries run totalitarian regimes, should we?

My passport won't fit in my wallet and I might lose it? For fcuks sake.

Please explain to me the benefits to the public. And how would these benefits compare to the cost of implementing and maintaining such a system (keeping in mind government spending is far from what you would call efficient in these matters).

delad · 06-08-2012 10:55PM

keith16 wrote: »

You haven't answered my question.

And yes, the above are terribly weak IMO - a lot of countries run totalitarian regimes, should we?

My passport won't fit in my wallet and I might lose it? For fcuks sake.

Please explain to me the benefits to the public. And how would these benefits compare to the cost of implementing and maintaining such a system (keeping in mind government spending is far from what you would call efficient in these matters).

People have said it many times, you would have your id, your voting reg details, your passport details, your driver license details, your dole elibility details all in one handy card. It would create massive efficiencies in the public sector which would cut costs, it would improve security, it would make fraud a lot harder to commit, it would mean you are automatically entitled to vote once you hit the required age etc. The list goes on. I don't know how we can make this any more clearer to you.

Logical_Bear · 06-08-2012 10:55PM

doovdela wrote: »

I think its worth having though.

come on abit more effort required!!

Logical_Bear · 06-08-2012 11:00PM

delad wrote: »

People have said it many times, you would have your id, your voting reg details, your passport details, your driver license details, your dole elibility details all in one handy card. It would create massive efficiencies in the public sector which would cut costs, it would improve security, it would make fraud a lot harder to commit, it would mean you are automatically entitled to vote once you hit the required age etc. The list goes on. I don't know how we can make this any more clearer to you.

no offence but thats way too much information to be carrying around on a card!

First thing...no ID card is accepted instead of passport.Secondly how often do you vote/get asked to produce your driving licence not that often to justify to have you carrying your voting credentials/driving licence details,your home address etc around with you 24/7.

As a tool to combat laziness it's a sound premise otherwise its a waste of time

EDIT: and I doubt very much its gonna happen anyway,irish governments couldnt organise a gangbang in a brothel even if provided with vouchers for said brothel

keith16 · 06-08-2012 11:08PM

delad wrote: »

People have said it many times, you would have your id, your voting reg details, your passport details, your driver license details, your dole elibility details all in one handy card. It would create massive efficiencies in the public sector which would cut costs, it would improve security, it would make fraud a lot harder to commit, it would mean you are automatically entitled to vote once you hit the required age etc. The list goes on. I don't know how we can make this any more clearer to you.

How would this card automatically become a driving licence? How would it 'know' which constituency you are a voter in?

How would it 'know' what your social security entitlements are?

How exactly would it reduce fraud?

I'm sorry but I just don't see it. Government can't even produce an integrated ticketing system for Dublin - the leap card is an absolute joke that has taken years to produce, doesn't do what it's supposed to do and I don't want to even know how much public money they wasted on it.

How long and how much would it cost to produce something as complex as the above?

languagenerd · 06-08-2012 11:25PM

When I thought of National I.D. cards, I didn't think of draconian laws and police states (in fact, it didn't even occur to me!). I think people are getting a little carried away - the cards wouldn't necessarily have to have ALL of the above info on it.

They would make some things far easier - travelling, opening accounts, social welfare, voting, going out at night... and if you did carry it on you all the time, it would save a lot of time if you were involved in an accident (identifying you, contacting your next of kin, finding out your blood type). And they would make it far easier for people who move to other E.U. countries.

It would be a standardized form of I.D. (so no problems with weird student cards) and, if it was done right, it would make it harder to make fake I.D.s.

I don't see how getting a national I.D. card would suddenly turn the country into a 1984-esque police state. Especially if it was written into law that you could only be charged with not having I.D. if you were arrested for something else at the same time.

I've never had a guard ask my name or for I.D. and nor have most of the people I know. Why is it such a big deal anyway?!

Logical_Bear · 06-08-2012 11:44PM

languagenerd wrote: »

Why is it such a big deal anyway?!

ignoring what the guards have to put up with,its way to much info to be carrying around with you(Iknow I'm repeating myself).

Also this I havent done anything wrong let the powers that be have the information at hand is wrong.

If I havent done anything wrong,you(and by you I mean the government,the gardai,ESB,Bord Gais etc)shouldnt have access to any information about me unless you need too or if I freely give it.

As for orwellian 1984 type society the only thing going for it was the 2 minute hate sessions!!

evolving_doors · 07-08-2012 12:11AM

delad wrote: »

It would create massive efficiencies in the public sector which would cut costs

just because you carry a card? whats the difference between that and the pps no which is was supposed to do the same.

The card aint going to make any difference if the software and database systems aren;t linked up in the first place... To fix that would cost a bomb.. remember p.pars?

Then the massive spend on advertisements for idiots to train people in?

Then the spend on the quango that would oversee it?

Govt couldn;t be arsed occupying themselves with this one unless they wanted to throw it out to the media lapdogs as a smokescrean while they released more money to bondholders or gave their advisors payrises or whatever..then you'd get 'debates' on radio with john Waters or whatever and people all asking on the panel "I wonder is this all just a smokescrean Marian? I dunno [she says] lets talk about the merits and disadvantages of it for a while anyway..."

Massive Efficiencies is a word thrown out every now and again but in Ireland it NEVER HAPPENS... Sounds like stoner talk to me

Cut costs means you would have to pay for it (probably every year too)

They trialled it with teenagers first a few years ago (OMG like WTF!) so when they were asked for ID in pubs and offies and they were underage they just showed it and were refused ,went home sobbing,, no more underage drinking in Ireland ensued...

National Identity Card....Never happen...

Just tattoo me ar*e and be done with it

oppenheimer1 · 07-08-2012 12:31AM

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Do you really want to go over the "if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear" argument?

Privacy is not about hiding, it's about being able to live your life and go about your business without the assumption that some agent of the state can stop you and demand you prove you are who say you are.

They can do that already

. We just don't have a standard card that provides the answer.

WolfForager · 07-08-2012 12:43AM

So from what I've read so far is that my original topic had very weak points and that people don't want to give their personal information to the po po.

Well I just wanted to open up a topic for debate, I didn't realise I had to give a strong list of reasons why I believe they should be introduced, it's AH after all. I just wanted to have a discussion about ID cards, my initial points were more or less just to get the ball rolling.

Some people seem to have an idealistic and some what foolhardy notion of a completely free state. Unless you have something to hide then what's the problem? It's not as if a Gard will scan your card and have a jolly read of your history and personal attributes. It would be more or less to check that your legally in the State or has some people have suggested, that you are a fully qualified driver in the case of the Traffic Corps.

Chuck Stone · 07-08-2012 12:56AM

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Oh god forbid someone might ask you your name... what is the world coming to.

Anyone can ask me my name but I reserve the right to tell them to fuck right off if I feel like it.

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

It's not like they're going to walk passed you at the bus stop and ask you for no reason what so ever.

If they ask, they (presumably) have good reason to. I severely doubt they do it just for kicks.

If the reason is good enough then arrest me, otherwise? GTFO.

SocSocPol wrote: »

Everyone should have ID on them, why shouldn't they.

Why should they?

This is a stupid idea and I for one will resist any and all moves to restrict my freedom. If I want to go for a walk as a private person and I'm not engaged in criminal behaviour then it's nobody's ****ing business who I am.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin.

syklops · 07-08-2012 01:05AM

dlofnep wrote: »

If it was 20 or 30 euro, I'd get it. Anymore than that, no chance.

Does not compute. If its a national ID card then its something that arrives in the post. Not something you go to the Post Office to "buy".

Not getting at you dlofnep, just saying, having lived in countries where ID is required to be carried, 'having' to carry something I also 'have' to pay for, may result in me and the rest of the population neither paying for nor carrying.

hatrickpatrick · 07-08-2012 05:32AM

Solair wrote: »

I think we could have a card without the police state bit that tends to go with it in some EU countries.

We absolutely could not. Ireland is already too much of a police state in my view and we should be going in the exact opposite direction to this.
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned about having to provide a name and address when asked - it's my strong belief that this should not be required unless the Garda cites a specific offense you are suspected of.

It has nothing to do with wanting to hide "crimes" and everything to do with being treated like an independent adult human being. My business is nobody's business but my own. The government already have the right to poke their noses in far too much, we should be taking away a lot of their powers, not giving them extra ones.

Feathers · 07-08-2012 09:01AM

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

So it would be "two utility bills and a passport ID Card and a letter from your granny". now?

I still don't see the benefit.

Nate

Your ID card would also display your address.

The one I have has on the front:

My picture
My ID card number
My name
My address
My signature

On the back it has:

My DOB
My birth place
My nationality
My sex
and the validity of the card.

The card I posses cuts out so much bullsh!t it's unreal. I opened a bank with nothing but this card. I rented a property with this card (no reference or anything else needed) . I rented a boat with this card.

One of the pros people put for it is that you don't have to carry your passport, wouldn't want to lose it. But then happy to carry around your full address along with your house keys 24/7... Strange.

Goro · 07-08-2012 12:07PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

We absolutely could not. Ireland is already too much of a police state in my view and we should be going in the exact opposite direction to this.
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned about having to provide a name and address when asked - it's my strong belief that this should not be required unless the Garda cites a specific offense you are suspected of.

It has nothing to do with wanting to hide "crimes" and everything to do with being treated like an independent adult human being. My business is nobody's business but my own. The government already have the right to poke their noses in far too much, we should be taking away a lot of their powers, not giving them extra ones.

Ireland is definitely NOT a police state. The criminals run riot here untouched and no one goes to prison for any meaningful length of time. How can you possibly think it is a police state?

syklops · 07-08-2012 12:29PM

Goro wrote: »

Ireland is definitely NOT a police state. The criminals run riot here untouched and no one goes to prison for any meaningful length of time. How can you possibly think it is a police state?

Ah jaysus, if you dont know what a police state is, could you not look it up rather than making your self look foolish?

wikipedia wrote:

A police state is one in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the population. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.

eth0 · 07-08-2012 12:38PM

Goro wrote: »

Ireland is definitely NOT a police state. The criminals run riot here untouched and no one goes to prison for any meaningful length of time. How can you possibly think it is a police state?

Are you wanting to turn it into a police state?

conorhal · 07-08-2012 12:48PM

eth0 wrote: »

Are you wanting to turn it into a police state?

Is France a police state? :rolleyes:

Get a grip, your paranoia is showing...

National Identity Card

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