National Identity Card

Mr. Manager · 05-08-2012 07:11PM

Stripey Cat wrote: »

I bet you have some things you'd like to keep private, though.

As an Irish citizen, in Ireland, I don't currently have to prove my identity.

Can you explain why the law should be changed so I should have to?

I already stated as above in my first post why I think it's a handy thing. I never mentioned the law being changed.

I have some things to keep private but my name certainly isn't one of them. Not if a Guarda asks me anyways.

IvySlayer · 05-08-2012 07:14PM

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

So if you didn't commit a crime why would you not just show your ID card?

By not doing so you are only going to make both you and the officials day that bit longer.

Because I have no reason to. If they need me as a witness, if they think I committed a crime, I will gladly present my ID. If they ask for my name I'll give it, but showing ID when ever a Garda wants me to for no reason, don't think so.

Anita Blow · 05-08-2012 07:15PM

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Before we go any further on this, what is the problem with a Guarda asking to see your identity?

There's nothing wrong with it.
Equally, there's nothing wrong with not answering if you don't want to.
The whole "If you've nothing to fear you've nothing to hide" argument is based on the false premise that people only keep things private because they've done something wrong.

I'm not against the introduction of a National ID but I don't think it should be compulsory to carry around. It'd be handy in place of a Garda ID or if a person wants to carry it abroad instead of a Passport.

Mr. Manager · 05-08-2012 07:15PM

IvySlayer wrote: »

Because I have no reason to. If they need me as a witness, if they think I committed a crime, I will gladly present my ID. If they ask for my name I'll give it, but showing ID when ever a Garda wants me to for no reason, don't think so.

It's not like they're going to walk passed you at the bus stop and ask you for no reason what so ever.

If they ask, they (presumably) have good reason to. I severely doubt they do it just for kicks.

Mr. Manager · 05-08-2012 07:17PM

Anita Blow wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with it.
Equally, there's nothing wrong with not answering if you don't want to.
The whole "If you've nothing to fear you've nothing to hide" argument is based on the false premise that people only keep things private because they've done something wrong.

I'm not against the introduction of a National ID but I don't think it should be compulsory to carry around. It'd be handy in place of a Garda ID or if a person wants to carry it abroad instead of a Passport.

I never said it had to be compulsory.

I've a National ID card but I don't have to carry it around.

IvySlayer · 05-08-2012 07:19PM

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

It's not like they're going to walk passed you at the bus stop and ask you for no reason what so ever.

If they ask, they (presumably) have good reason to. I severely doubt they do it just for kicks.

I've never dealt with them, but if I'm walking down the street and a Garda ask me to see I.D for no reason, I'll ask no thanks unless I thought he/she had a valid reason. That said, since never talking to one, I'll probably just get scared and do it

Mr. Manager · 05-08-2012 07:23PM

IvySlayer wrote: »

I've never dealt with them, but if I'm walking down the street and a Garda ask me to see I.D for no reason, I'll ask no thanks unless I thought he/she had a valid reason. That said, since never talking to one, I'll probably just get scared and do it

But this is my thing, why would a Guarda ask to see your ID for no reason? How would that benefit anyone? Unless you're a decent lookin lass and they wanted your full name to Facebook stalk you or something

I'd be a little peeved if I was asked to show it for no reason but for the sake or ruining my day, I'd just do it. What's the harm.

MadsL · 05-08-2012 07:23PM

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

It's not like they're going to walk passed you at the bus stop and ask you for no reason what so ever.

If they ask, they (presumably) have good reason to. I severely doubt they do it just for kicks.

Back in the days before EU membership, I was arrested in the Czech Republic for not having my ID. I was just walking around, and did a U turn in front of some cops (realised I was going the wrong way) and they caught up with me and asked me where I was going. Home, I said in Czech, without thinking. They caught my accent, and asked where I was from and for papers. As my passport was in my flat, and I had never met my landlord (paid him through post office) things got interesting.

It took me a week's wages (all the cash in my pocket) as a bribe to get out of that one.

Not in favour, far too many easy abuses.

Mr. Manager · 05-08-2012 07:30PM

MadsL wrote: »

Back in the days before EU membership, I was arrested in the Czech Republic for not having my ID....

Well to them that wasn't for no reason. Obviously it looked a little suspicious. Point proven why they asked for your ID...

bijapos · 05-08-2012 07:32PM

I'd be in favour of one, but it shouldn't be obligatory to carry it, and the Gardai shouldn't have the right to stop and demand one, unless you are under suspicion for having committed an offence.

I think it would have to have some sort of biometric check to prevent fraud when applying for one initially. They should be used to access any government service such as SW, health care etc, their introduction would save cash medium to long term on fraud and although there has been talk of this being introduced since around 1998 it is long overdue now.

It's still a bit crazy that in this day and age you have to take an ESB or other bill with you as proof of residency for so many basic services.

I understand the point of some people that they should have the right to walk the streets without being subject to a stop and produce by a Garda. I lived in Germany and France for a long time where it is obligatory to carry ID and some police officers abuse the system at their own leisure.

But it could be used to verify identity quickly, where necessary, all it sould require is that the person under suspicion gives a their name to a Garda and their ID card page could be called up quickly over the system. It could be linked up to PULSE and the courts system, but this will only work properly when the courts and policing system in this country start to run more efficiently which is a debate for another thread.

Snowie · 05-08-2012 07:39PM

First Explorer wrote: »

It could't hurt, I'd prefere a card to a passport it would stand a better chance of survival after a wash in the washing machine.

new pass ports are my 2012 has a plastic bit were all my personal information has been, printed like your picture is placed on...

Feathers · 05-08-2012 08:03PM

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

But this is my thing, why would a Guarda ask to see your ID for no reason? How would that benefit anyone?

Guardian article from 2010 states that in the UK, black people are seven times more likely to be stopped by the police than white people under their stop and search legislation (for which they have to suspect you of something to stop you to begin with).

So unless we take as true that black people are behaving more suspiciously than white people, you've got a good number of people from an ethnic minority background that are getting stopped for 'no reason'.

Mr. Manager · 05-08-2012 08:06PM

Feathers wrote: »

Guardian article from 2010 states that in the UK, black people are seven times more likely to be stopped by the police than white people under their stop and search legislation (for which they have to suspect you of something to stop you to begin with).

So unless we take as true that black people are behaving more suspiciously than white people, you've got a good number of people from an ethnic minority background that are getting stopped for 'no reason'.

Now you're going down a different, racial stereotyping, path.

Also, we're not the UK.

Feathers · 05-08-2012 08:15PM

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

Now you're going down a different, racial stereotyping, path.

Also, we're not the UK.

Don't know about different path — racial stereotyping is one example of how people could be hassled by a law like this without doing anything wrong.

We're not the UK, but don't think it's unreasonable to draw a parallel with somewhere that has these types of laws at present. Or do you think that the Gardaí would act much better than the UK police if given power to demand ID?

Eve_Dublin · 05-08-2012 08:33PM

In an ideal world where police didn't abuse their position of power and European wasn't ruled by a bunch of cunts, I'd probably say "yes" but they do and I've seen it happen here with ID cards, so I'll say a big "no".

delad · 05-08-2012 08:33PM

IvySlayer wrote: »

Because I have no reason to. If they need me as a witness, if they think I committed a crime, I will gladly present my ID. If they ask for my name I'll give it, but showing ID when ever a Garda wants me to for no reason, don't think so.

Don't garda already have the power to ask you your name and address. If you don't give that info or give incorrect info then you are committing an offense. So what difference would this be?

When the garda swipe your national id card, they would only have access to information as to whether you have a valid driving license, and whether you are wanted for any crimes or have any fines outstanding. They would not have access to any other information on your card.

When you go to vote, the people at the voting station will only have access to information as to whether you have the right to vote when they swipe your card. Also by having the card you will be automatically registered to vote when you are the legal age, so no more having to fill out forms to register to vote!

When you go to collect your dole, the people there will only have info as to your eligibility for dole when they swipe your card.

When you're at the airport, security and check in will only have access to whether you have a valid passport and have a ticket for that flight, when they swipe your card.

So you see, there is no risk of any of these authorities getting any personal info that they have no business having. The card would only have your name, picture and date of birth printed on the front of it. All other info could only be accessed on readers which are restricted as to what info is needed by the authorities using them.

The card would just make all of our lives a lot, lot easier, and make life much much harder for criminals. Fraud such as dole fraud would be stamped out in an instant. People will no longer be able to get away with not paying taxes such as property tax, which will benefit all of us who are law abiding.

MadsL · 06-08-2012 12:14AM

delad wrote: »

Don't garda already have the power to ask you your name and address.

iirc, not without a reason. I believe you are not obliged to answer unless the member describes the Act under which it is being requested, ie: the Road Traffic Act describes the requirement to give a member your Driving Licence if requested.

keith16 · 06-08-2012 01:11AM

WolfForager wrote: »

So who here is for and against the introduction of a National ID card?

I can't really see any downsides to it and we're one of two countries in the EU who don't have one.

We could travel anywhere in the EU with a small card that fits in your wallet. I hate taking my passport anywhere as the odds of it falling out of your pocket or out of my bag are too damn high, especially in my extra paranoid mind on a day of travel.

The "National Age Card" system could be scrapped, alot handier in general for proving your over 18.

Now we don't need to go the route of what the UK were trying to do a few years ago with the bio-metric data and such. But it would be handy to have informations such as your DOB, address, blood type etc on it.

I haven't heard anything in the news about it in a long time, I think last year President Higgins was urging for the introduction of a National ID card as soon as possible, since then, not much. Has there been talk about it more recently that I've been missing?

What say you AH?

You haven't convinced me it's necessary based on your points above which are;

- a lot of other EU countries have them
- it's more convenient to carry vs. a passport
- we could get rid of the age cards

Very weak arguments IMO. What are the real tangible benefits of having them. And how do these compare to the cost of introducing and maintaining the system.

Personally I see no need for them.

Chloris · 06-08-2012 01:23AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

I'm all for it if we can send the Corkonians back to where they belong

SocSocPol · 06-08-2012 08:33PM

keith16 wrote: »

You haven't convinced me it's necessary based on your points above which are;

- a lot of other EU countries have them
- it's more convenient to carry vs. a passport
- we could get rid of the age cards

Very weak arguments IMO. What are the real tangible benefits of having them. And how do these compare to the cost of introducing and maintaining the system.

Personally I see no need for them.

Very strong arguements:
a lot of other EU countries have them
- it's more convenient to carry vs. a passport
- we could get rid of the age cards

Everyone should have ID on them, why shouldn't they.

Julius Seizure · 06-08-2012 08:46PM

Yeah, in Belgium they have it done really well, it's pretty much as good as the card in your passport and provided you fly air Lingus it's enough to fly on. They even have it so that if you want to book an SNCB ticket online you type in your personal number and it saves it to your card. Leap card alert?

But yeah, the teller in the bank couldnt come to terms with the fact Ireland doesn't have ID cards. She wanted more Id than just my passport and wanted the card. Me being a saoránigh I obviously didn't have one... Couldnt come to terms with it.

monkeypants · 06-08-2012 08:54PM

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

By not doing so you are only going to make both you and the officials day that bit longer.

Why's that then?

hatrickpatrick · 06-08-2012 08:56PM

You see, in ordinary circumstances it wouldn't be so bad. But we live in one of the worst cases of a "nanny state" in the Western world, and there is absolutely no possibility that such an ID card would not be used by the powers that be to further restrict our freedom.

BOHtox · 06-08-2012 09:03PM

Don't they have something like 49 different things on them.
Retina scans, fingerprints, security number, gps tracker etc.
All on one large government database.

two things.

Why do the government want 49 pieces of information on me?
I want to keep myself to myself thank you.

Secondly, what happens when someone hacks this centre?
Then anonymous or whoever have complete information about all of us.
Forget about losing your wallet and having to cancel and re-order you visa card. You'll have to get new fingerprints!:cool:

No thank you!

RustyNut · 06-08-2012 09:08PM

SocSocPol wrote: »

Very strong arguements:
a lot of other EU countries have them
- it's more convenient to carry vs. a passport
- we could get rid of the age cards

Everyone should have ID on them, why shouldn't they.

Why not go the whole hog and just chip baby's at birth so the state can track us all. What's the harm?

delad · 06-08-2012 09:10PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Why not go the whole hog and just chip baby's at birth so the state can track us all. What's the harm?

no harm that I can see, it would just make the world a safer place

Feathers · 06-08-2012 09:13PM

SocSocPol wrote: »

Very strong arguements:
a lot of other EU countries have them
- it's more convenient to carry vs. a passport
- we could get rid of the age cards

Everyone should have ID on them, why shouldn't they.

I disagreed with them at first, but your argument has won me over. "Why shouldn't they?" — I never thought about it like that before…

SocSocPol · 06-08-2012 09:15PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Why not go the whole hog and just chip baby's at birth so the state can track us all. What's the harm?

Inane and childish comment.

Mr. Manager · 06-08-2012 09:28PM

monkeypants wrote: »

Why's that then?

Because you're only going to cause yourself unnecessary hassle. The scenario is not going to go like this -

"Can I see your ID?"

"No."

"Ok, on you go so."

This is how it would go -

"Can I see your ID?"

"No."

"Sir, can you please show me your ID"

"No, why should I?"

"Because I've requested it"

Yada yada yada. You get the picture...

Logical_Bear · 06-08-2012 09:39PM

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

To this day I still don't get the problem with a Guarda asking to see your ID. If you've nothing to hide, then just show your card and get it over with instead of rabbling off some freestate bullshít and posting it on YouTube about how you "stuck it to them man".

You're getting mixed up with the retards that call themselves freemen and the gards can ask away for ID because the only time I have it on me is when Im driving or going to/from the airport and i'd say thats the same for most people.

also they wont replace passports anyway and the only reason I can see for trying to bring them in is to combat illegal immigration and all legal immigrates will have proof fairly quickly to prove that they are legit.

I'm against it,I like my privacy no matter who's trying to invade it and using half baked arguments to justify it doesnt wash.If I've done something wrong,arrest me,other wise f off and find somebody else to intimidate/bully

National Identity Card

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