Dublin Marathon 2012 - Mentored Novices Thread

lmguillou · 01-08-2012 02:51PM

Ok I decided to start with the program for novice 2 and slowly move to intermediate 1. Since I started running again 2 weeks ago the highest distance I ran so far is 15k. So I m really far behing the plan I followed 3 years ago. My aim this year was to do a better time (below3h57), now just complete it will make me happy

ncmc · 01-08-2012 03:14PM

shortie_chik wrote: »

After all the talk of epsom salts baths, I thought I'd give my tired legs a good rest this morning after 6m & had my annual bath. It felt so good, & there isn't a peep out of the achey muscles I woke up with this morning.

Tomorrow I've a return trip to the physio to follow up on my much-less-creaky hip, & I've booked myself (& the OH cos I'm generous like that!) a full body massage for Friday morning & then I'm taking him out for yummy lunch, possibly followed by cinema / cocktails / more dinner out / DVDs & beers at home... My boyfriend will be one of my girlfriends for the day After 14 weeks of solid marathon prep, it's surely time for a little treat! He works & studies hard, and is training for the Dublin Olympic triathlon at the end of the month, so he needs some treats too.

Next week is going to be a big challenge for me (4-7-4-14 :eek:), so I'm hoping my legs will feel fresh as lean, muscular, powerful daisies after some TLC.

So how are you rewarding yourselves for all the hard work you've put in so far? :cool:

That sounds like such a lovely treat shortie, enjoy it, you’ve earned it!

Haven’t booked any treats for before the marathon, but my sisters and I are treating ourselves to a weekend in the Ritz Carlton Powerscourt for the week after the marathon. Deluxe suite, facial, massage, dinner in Gordon Ramsey’s…. the works! I can’t wait, I keep thinking about how good that massage is going to feel five days after running the marathon!

Oh I suppose I should add, my hubby and I are off to Italy for two weeks at the start of September, that’s a pretty big treat I suppose! I will have to try and keep up with the training while I’m there, but on the plus side, there will be no shortage of pasta for energy anyway!

irishmanmick · 01-08-2012 04:03PM

Seriously jealous of all the people away on holidays soon! Doesn't help that it's lashing rain here! Have my brother's stag at weekend so trying to get my running down before hand. Gonna take the gear and see if I can force myself to go for a 10k sat morning. Kids have me progammed now that I never sleep past 9.30 even when I'm giving a morning off so will try get out!

Quick question regarding harder "speed" sessions - I did my first attempt at one on Monday night. Basically I ran one mile at LSR pace (65-70% MaxHR) and then one mile at 85-88% MaxHR which the copy of runners world I have ensures me is my lactose threshold. I did that four times then a mile to cool down at the end. Literally decided that I would give this a go and see what happens - will this help me get faster or should i just run all the runs easy? (Legs were a little tight day after but fine today)

greenb · 01-08-2012 04:24PM

Hi,

Am 50 yrs old, approx 90k, 5' 10.

I finished doing the couch to 5k back in january after 25 years literally on the couch or bar stool! and since then have continued to run 5k about twice a week (midweek) with a longer run at the weekend.......now up to 10K.

My times, normally around 28-30 mins for 5K and 1hr for 10K, although have pushed the pace on the 5k run a couple of times and do about 25mins (that's really a push for me and have thrown-up afterwards a couple of times!!)

My question........where to go from here. Am considering training for a marathon. Am I too late to start the Higdon programs for this year, I would like to do it from the start, but would that be going backwards from where I already am? Am thinking maybe just keep running and increasing the long runs and do Marathon 2013, starting a Higdon program in June next year. Any advice most welcome....thanks.

shortie_chik · 01-08-2012 05:02PM

ncmc wrote: »

Haven’t booked any treats for before the marathon, but my sisters and I are treating ourselves to a weekend in the Ritz Carlton Powerscourt for the week after the marathon. Deluxe suite, facial, massage, dinner in Gordon Ramsey’s…. the works! I can’t wait, I keep thinking about how good that massage is going to feel five days after running the marathon!

Taking note of this! Sounds absolutely heavenly!

My OH wanted us to take a holiday when his thesis was submitted (provisionally September, but it's looking more like October / November to me at this stage :eek:) & a "local weekend away" in early November could be just the thing! I'll have earned another little treat after 13 more weeks hard work I reckon.

rasher_m · 01-08-2012 06:26PM

greenb wrote: »

Hi,

Am 50 yrs old, approx 90k, 5' 10.

I finished doing the couch to 5k back in january after 25 years literally on the couch or bar stool! and since then have continued to run 5k about twice a week (midweek) with a longer run at the weekend.......now up to 10K.

My times, normally around 28-30 mins for 5K and 1hr for 10K, although have pushed the pace on the 5k run a couple of times and do about 25mins (that's really a push for me and have thrown-up afterwards a couple of times!!)

My question........where to go from here. Am considering training for a marathon. Am I too late to start the Higdon programs for this year, I would like to do it from the start, but would that be going backwards from where I already am? Am thinking maybe just keep running and increasing the long runs and do Marathon 2013, starting a Higdon program in June next year. Any advice most welcome....thanks.

Hi there, the natural progression from 10km is a half marathon. Just a suggestion...you could start training now for a winter half marathon, I know the Waterford half which seems pretty popular is in December. This is what I would aim for now. I think if you're still only at the stage of running 10km that the Dublin Half could be a bit close unless you feel you could get to 12 miles by September 15th?

greenb · 01-08-2012 08:22PM

Thanks rasher.

Think I might just go for the Dublin half....I need to have something to go for and I guess it is too late to think about this year's big one.

Just a general question (probably stupid) on marathon training. At what point in the higdon programs should you start if you're already doing more mileage or longer runs than is prescribed at the beginning of the program. Is it best to start at week 1 of the program, ie reduce current mileage, or jump in somewhere in the middle?

Pacing Mule · 01-08-2012 09:09PM

Got back on the horse this evening.

Had a better run than Monday (where I as good as collapsed after 2km and had to abandon my LSR) 7k done in 46 minutes. It was a very start / stop run with plenty of walking breaks. The kind of positive was that the walks were more of a fitness letting me down scenario rather than a medical collapse letting me down.

I'm looking forwards now to next Mondays 10k Dun Laoghaire bay race. Is anyone else here doing this ? I missed the Fingal 10k as I was away so entered this one instead. I'm going to be chasing a PB and hoping to break 1 hour. (Best and only official 10k time was 67 minutes in the Samsung night race - I know I can beat this but would love to break 1 hour)

career_move · 01-08-2012 09:28PM

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

Got back on the horse this evening.

Had a better run than Monday (where I as good as collapsed after 2km and had to abandon my LSR) 7k done in 46 minutes. It was a very start / stop run with plenty of walking breaks. The kind of positive was that the walks were more of a fitness letting me down scenario rather than a medical collapse letting me down.

I'm looking forwards now to next Mondays 10k Dun Laoghaire bay race. Is anyone else here doing this ? I missed the Fingal 10k as I was away so entered this one instead. I'm going to be chasing a PB and hoping to break 1 hour. (Best and only official 10k time was 67 minutes in the Samsung night race - I know I can beat this but would love to break 1 hour)

Good stuff PM. I did almost the same...7.2k in 47.20. I didn't take any walk breaks but I was running like a snail cause I ached all over after the massage I got last night

My next race is the half marathon in Portlaoise Sunday wk....very excited about it:D

rasher_m · 01-08-2012 10:04PM

greenb wrote: »

Thanks rasher.

Think I might just go for the Dublin half....I need to have something to go for and I guess it is too late to think about this year's big one.

Just a general question (probably stupid) on marathon training. At what point in the higdon programs should you start if you're already doing more mileage or longer runs than is prescribed at the beginning of the program. Is it best to start at week 1 of the program, ie reduce current mileage, or jump in somewhere in the middle?

Don't take my word for it...Younganne or one of the other experienced marathoners can give you much better direction than me. I'm only making suggestions and I have no idea how fit and driven you are.

pansophelia · 01-08-2012 10:48PM

7m pace run done this evening
Not quite all at pace, but delighted with it - been having a long slow month.

My new recovery drink - warm cocoa (Green and Blacks)
Followed by a steak dinner:D

niteowl1 · 01-08-2012 11:02PM

greenb wrote: »

Just a general question (probably stupid) on marathon training. At what point in the higdon programs should you start if you're already doing more mileage or longer runs than is prescribed at the beginning of the program. Is it best to start at week 1 of the program, ie reduce current mileage, or jump in somewhere in the middle?

HI greenb, I did my first marathon back in May. I officially started the Hal Higdon Novice 1 program the first week of January (its an 18 week program). I ran the first few weeks of the program in November and December to build fitness and get the body ready for 4 days of running a week (only doing about 2 runs weekly up to this). My pre-program training really helped me ease in gently. This time around I jumped into the program on week 4 (was away but had maintained good fitness levels since marathon and half-marathon in June) and getting on fine (so far). HTH

Murph_D · 01-08-2012 11:57PM

I'm following HHN2, week 6. Came in on week 2 I think, having been running similar enough distances for it not to make much difference. Am loving the challenge and the fact that I'm now getting up there with no injuries so far (not taking anything for granted). Couple of observations.

It seems to me that quite a few of us who are reporting injuries are messing about with the schedules, with perhaps pretty dubious reasons (going on holiday; wanting to get a week ahead for some reason; felt like starting early; had a 5/10/16k race coming up and was training for that etc etc).

My own feeling (and of course I am a newbie, never ran a marathon or anything like it) is that one would mess with these kind of schedules at peril. Not the schedules per se, but the philosophy - i.e. two weeks forward, one week back - it seems to me that a few of us are not really thinking about what it means if, say, you skip the step-back week or substitute if for the next week etc. That seems to me to be a recipe for injury, unless you are very fit to begin with.

It's quite surprising, I think, for a mentored novice thread, how few novices are actually following the schedule built for them.

Dilbert75 · 02-08-2012 06:51AM

Would you not think that, by virtue of being novices at this distance, the niggles are more likely a result of doing regular increasing mileage than of messing around with the exact schedules?

RayCun · 02-08-2012 08:04AM

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Would you not think that, by virtue of being novices at this distance, the niggles are more likely a result of doing regular increasing mileage than of messing around with the exact schedules?

The increasing mileage is certainly going cause a strain. Your legs get tired, your body gets tired, and injuries become more common.

As for messing with the schedules... it depends on the changes you are making. If you run Wed/Thurs/Fri and long run on Monday instead of Tues/Wed/Thurs and LSR on Sunday... that's no difference. Same if you have to move your midweek runs around a little sometimes, or drop a mile on Tuesday to add it Thursday once or twice.

But if your changes make the programme harder, that can increase the injury risk. If you skip a stepback week and just maintain the distance, you're skimping on your recovery and increasing the stress on your body. If you finish week 8 of the programme, go away for two weeks and don't run at all, then come back and jump in to week 9, that week will be a shock to the system. If for your weekend run you do a 5 mile race and 5 miles afterwards, that's going to be much more demanding than a 10 mile LSR. The same problem if you do too many miles at marathon pace during your training.

The training plans aren't set in stone, but you should understand why they are structured the way they are before you start changing them.

Steroo · 02-08-2012 08:59AM

greenb wrote: »

Thanks rasher.

Think I might just go for the Dublin half....I need to have something to go for and I guess it is too late to think about this year's big one.

I'd say just go for it. Start the plan around week 5/6 and see if you can handle it. Well done BTW. If you get through the half in Sept you have a few weeks to keep training & you'll get the Marathon done in Oct.. might not be a brilliant time but you'll do it. but if you think you are causing injury hold off & wait til next time. No time like the present. I'm sure you'll get more cautious advice from others. Good Luck.

Younganne · 02-08-2012 09:08AM

murphd77 wrote: »

I'm following HHN2, week 6. Came in on week 2 I think, having been running similar enough distances for it not to make much difference. Am loving the challenge and the fact that I'm now getting up there with no injuries so far (not taking anything for granted). Couple of observations.

It seems to me that quite a few of us who are reporting injuries are messing about with the schedules, with perhaps pretty dubious reasons (going on holiday; wanting to get a week ahead for some reason; felt like starting early; had a 5/10/16k race coming up and was training for that etc etc).

My own feeling (and of course I am a newbie, never ran a marathon or anything like it) is that one would mess with these kind of schedules at peril. Not the schedules per se, but the philosophy - i.e. two weeks forward, one week back - it seems to me that a few of us are not really thinking about what it means if, say, you skip the step-back week or substitute if for the next week etc. That seems to me to be a recipe for injury, unless you are very fit to begin with.

It's quite surprising, I think, for a mentored novice thread, how few novices are actually following the schedule built for them.

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Would you not think that, by virtue of being novices at this distance, the niggles are more likely a result of doing regular increasing mileage than of messing around with the exact schedules?

RayCun wrote: »

The increasing mileage is certainly going cause a strain. Your legs get tired, your body gets tired, and injuries become more common.

As for messing with the schedules... it depends on the changes you are making. If you run Wed/Thurs/Fri and long run on Monday instead of Tues/Wed/Thurs and LSR on Sunday... that's no difference. Same if you have to move your midweek runs around a little sometimes, or drop a mile on Tuesday to add it Thursday once or twice.

But if your changes make the programme harder, that can increase the injury risk. If you skip a stepback week and just maintain the distance, you're skimping on your recovery and increasing the stress on your body. If you finish week 8 of the programme, go away for two weeks and don't run at all, then come back and jump in to week 9, that week will be a shock to the system. If for your weekend run you do a 5 mile race and 5 miles afterwards, that's going to be much more demanding than a 10 mile LSR. The same problem if you do too many miles at marathon pace during your training.

The training plans aren't set in stone, but you should understand why they are structured the way they are before you start changing them.

I have to agree with what Rays say on this. Its a combination of both the increased mileage and the changes that some people are making to the schedule that are leading to niggles & injuries.

Now some of you make be following the plan to the letter and still be having niggles, but there are various other reasons for this too...

Runners might not be the right ones for your feet or the runners your are using are getting to the end of their running life
your pace might still be a bit on the fast side than it should be as i know its hard to slow down, when you know you can run faster.
stretching after a run might be an issue, some people don't stretch and some people stretch for up to 20 min, you have to find what is best for you and stretch all the big muscles after each run
nutrition and hydration might still need a bit of work to help with recovery and to fuel the runs
continuing to run on niggles or injuries and not getting them checked by a professional will lead to bigger injuries and more time of running

There are always various answers to each question asked here and as stated before we are not claiming to be experts, just people who have gone through this experience before and are trying to pass on our experience and tips and advice.

Keep the heads up and keep the minds positive. As stated earlier if you follow the plan, you will be able to get around the course and enjoy the experience.
never be afraid to ask questions here, you'll always get an answer from someone!!

darabbit · 02-08-2012 10:12AM

I have registered for the Longford half marathon on 26th Aug as it fits in well with HH1. There is another half in Athenry the week after and I am thinking of doing it as it is close to me. I an supposed to run 10 m that weekend but I was swapping week 9 and 10 due to Longford half.

Is it too much to run two half marathons in succession?

rasher_m · 02-08-2012 10:26AM

StephenRooney wrote: »

greenb wrote: »

Thanks rasher.

Think I might just go for the Dublin half....I need to have something to go for and I guess it is too late to think about this year's big one.

I'd say just go for it. Start the plan around week 5/6 and see if you can handle it. Well done BTW. If you get through the half in Sept you have a few weeks to keep training & you'll get the Marathon done in Oct.. might not be a brilliant time but you'll do it. but if you think you are causing injury hold off & wait til next time. No time like the present. I'm sure you'll get more cautious advice from others. Good Luck.

Yeah, you're right...I guess when I was suggesting he wait for a winter half I was thinking in my head that he might want to do a good time but yeah he could possibly run/walk the marathon training from now. But if he wanted to run the whole race I dont think it would be possible. I'd say even seasonal marathon runners have started their training for Dublin by now.

career_move · 02-08-2012 10:35AM

Did my 6m pace run this morn. I love pace runs....when they're finished :rolleyes: Had an ice bath when I got back. Tis definitely a form of torture :eek: My muscles felt great after it though

ncmc · 02-08-2012 11:21AM

Just wanted to get people’s thoughts on this, I was thinking of doing the Clonmel half marathon on August 19th, problem is, my husband is working that day and there isn’t really anyone else I could ask to go with me, so I’d be doing it on my own! Would anyone consider doing a race on there own or am I going to look like a total Billy-no-mates at the start and finish line!

With holidays and one thing and another, the only other half marathon near me, would be Charleville on Sept 23rd, is this too close to the marathon to be doing a half?

Should I do Clonmel solo, do Charleville or both?

Younganne · 02-08-2012 11:27AM

greenb wrote: »

Thanks rasher.

Think I might just go for the Dublin half....I need to have something to go for and I guess it is too late to think about this year's big one.

Just a general question (probably stupid) on marathon training. At what point in the higdon programs should you start if you're already doing more mileage or longer runs than is prescribed at the beginning of the program. Is it best to start at week 1 of the program, ie reduce current mileage, or jump in somewhere in the middle?

Hi greenb,
Well done on completing the Couch programm and continuing with it since then. It wouldn't be a great idea to start marathon training for this year now, as currently (i think from an earlier post ) you are running 2 x 5k and 1 x10k a week. This would not be enough to build on for this years marathon but definitely build on it for A Spring Marathon...
I'd suggest that you start with checking out Hal Higdon....use one of his program to start adding a 4th running day and build it up from 1.5m to 3 mile and then start the novice program when you are comfortable with the 4 days running.or pick a smaller race and use his program for that, Then pick your Spring Marathon or Half Marathon and start the training programm, repeating weeks if you have to to being you up to your marathon!!
Hope that helps, any questions, just ask!

Younganne · 02-08-2012 11:32AM

ncmc wrote: »

Just wanted to get people’s thoughts on this, I was thinking of doing the Clonmel half marathon on August 19th, problem is, my husband is working that day and there isn’t really anyone else I could ask to go with me, so I’d be doing it on my own! Would anyone consider doing a race on there own or am I going to look like a total Billy-no-mates at the start and finish line!

With holidays and one thing and another, the only other half marathon near me, would be Charleville on Sept 23rd, is this too close to the marathon to be doing a half?

Should I do Clonmel solo, do Charleville or both?

I have done most of my races up to now on my own bar last years marathon, as the kids are small and get bored easily so hubby stays at home with them. Now i have got to know a few Boardsies so i see a few familiar faces at the races now.
If you are on your own, then you can do your own thing and don't have to be worrying about waiting for people or people waiting for you, etc
Althought it is nice to hear someone cheer you on from the sidelines and especially at the end when things might be getting a bit tough.

Regarding the Charleville on Sept 23rd, i don't think this is too close to the marathon, The Dublin one a lots of people will be doing is the week beforehand.

So whichever suits you best go for it.

Younganne · 02-08-2012 11:35AM

darabbit wrote: »

I have registered for the Longford half marathon on 26th Aug as it fits in well with HH1. There is another half in Athenry the week after and I am thinking of doing it as it is close to me. I an supposed to run 10 m that weekend but I was swapping week 9 and 10 due to Longford half.

Is it too much to run two half marathons in succession?

2 half marathons in 2 successive weeks would be very tough on the body unless you are not going to race one of them and treat it as a training run......otherwise i'd say pick the one you like best and do that one...but others might think differently

ncmc · 02-08-2012 11:38AM

Thanks Anne, the reason I wanted to do the Clonmel one is because I figured it would give me a good idea of where my fitness is and how realistic my marathon target it, so I’ll know ‘where I’m at’ for the rest of my training. The problem with the Charleville one is that I will be heading into taper shortly afterwards so won’t have much time to improve.

I think I’ll just suck it up and do Clonmel and then do Charleville too, should have a realistic view of my marathon prospects at that stage.

I know I’m just being a baby, I’ve only done two races to date and I’d support at them both

greenb · 02-08-2012 01:12PM

Younganne wrote: »

Hi greenb,
Well done on completing the Couch programm and continuing with it since then. It wouldn't be a great idea to start marathon training for this year now, as currently (i think from an earlier post ) you are running 2 x 5k and 1 x10k a week. This would not be enough to build on for this years marathon but definitely build on it for A Spring Marathon...
I'd suggest that you start with checking out Hal Higdon....use one of his program to start adding a 4th running day and build it up from 1.5m to 3 mile and then start the novice program when you are comfortable with the 4 days running.or pick a smaller race and use his program for that, Then pick your Spring Marathon or Half Marathon and start the training programm, repeating weeks if you have to to being you up to your marathon!!
Hope that helps, any questions, just ask!

Thanks Anne, that does help. Just to clarify, is your advice to use the higdon program initially just to add a fourth day, ie continuing doing my 3m Tuesday, 3m Thursday and 6m Sunday while adding a fourth day building up from 1.5m to 3m over say 12 weeks. Up to now I was focused on just increasing the Sunday run gradually.

I'm still a little confused about how to start the marathon training program when the time comes...ie novice supreme is a 30 week program, if I'm doing the above should I just jump in to week 10 or 11, twenty weeks before the marathon, or should I start at week 1 thirty weeks before the marathon, thus reducing the mileage I will already be doing at that stage?

Thanks all for your help

Rega · 02-08-2012 01:14PM

ncmc wrote: »

Thanks Anne, the reason I wanted to do the Clonmel one is because I figured it would give me a good idea of where my fitness is and how realistic my marathon target it, so I’ll know ‘where I’m at’ for the rest of my training. The problem with the Charleville one is that I will be heading into taper shortly afterwards so won’t have much time to improve.

I think I’ll just suck it up and do Clonmel and then do Charleville too, should have a realistic view of my marathon prospects at that stage.

I know I’m just being a baby, I’ve only done two races to date and I’d support at them both

The great thing about the Charleville half marathon is that it is a very flat course so it'll only be as taxing as you make it. Thinking of doing that one myself. Like you I thought it was too close to the Dublin marathon but I know Michael, the organiser, and he assured me that a lot of the runners doing it last year used it as a warmup for Dublin.

Might see you there.
Oh and I'm doing Clonmel too. On my own!:D

ncmc · 02-08-2012 02:03PM

Rega wrote: »

The great thing about the Charleville half marathon is that it is a very flat course so it'll only be as taxing as you make it. Thinking of doing that one myself. Like you I thought it was too close to the Dublin marathon but I know Michael, the organiser, and he assured me that a lot of the runners doing it last year used it as a warmup for Dublin.

Might see you there.
Oh and I'm doing Clonmel too. On my own!:D

Brilliant! Don’t feel so bad now that I know I’m not the only one on their lonesome

career_move · 02-08-2012 02:20PM

ncmc wrote: »

Just wanted to get people’s thoughts on this, I was thinking of doing the Clonmel half marathon on August 19th, problem is, my husband is working that day and there isn’t really anyone else I could ask to go with me, so I’d be doing it on my own! Would anyone consider doing a race on there own or am I going to look like a total Billy-no-mates at the start and finish line!

With holidays and one thing and another, the only other half marathon near me, would be Charleville on Sept 23rd, is this too close to the marathon to be doing a half?

Should I do Clonmel solo, do Charleville or both?

I do all my races on my own but everybody is so friendly you won't be stuck for people to talk to. In some ways I think its better cause you get talking to more people

shortie_chik · 02-08-2012 04:27PM

My physio asked this morning if I'm getting enough protein / glycogen to repair my muscles. I told her I usually eat a handful of nuts with water when I finish, and might try chocolate milk now based on recommendations on here. She told me that Mark Kenneally (olympic marathon runner!) drinks a mixture of Marvel, Nesquik & water shook up into a milkshake, within an hour of running. Just thought I'd pass on the recipe!

She wasn't certain of the proportions, maybe someone on here is already drinking this & can let me know? Haven't found it by Google yet, but if I can't come up with something I can email her to contact Mark for the measurements (which I'll stick up here if I get it).

ncmc wrote: »

Would anyone consider doing a race on there own or am I going to look like a total Billy-no-mates at the start and finish line

Almost every race I've ever done, I've done on my own. Sounds selfish when I type it out loud

but it's much easier to do my own thing on a race day. Don't have to leave home extra early to meet someone, can arrive whenever I'm ready / no waiting for late folks!, can do a little run at my own warm up pace, can position myself wherever I feel comfortable in the starting area, can get into my own pace without feeling bad for abandoning a friend during the race, and can head off home with no hanging around getting cold (or rained on!) after. And other people around in the start area are usually friendly enough if you feel lonely!

Dublin Marathon 2012 - Mentored Novices Thread

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