Is it time to end Dublin`s stranglehold on the rest of the country?

Hawkeye123 · 30-07-2012 11:27PM #1

Could Federalism work in an Irish context?

James Madison - a great nineteenth century American statesman was quoted as saying:

“By dividing power between the states and the national government, one level can serve as a check on the other. This should provide double security to the rights of the people. Each of these interests would constitute a faction that would seek its own advantage, and one faction might come to dominate government or a part of government in one place, and a different faction might come to power in another. The tugging and pulling of these factions would prevent any single region of the United states from dominating all of government. The division of powers among several governments would give to virtually every faction an opportunity to gain some-but not full-power.”

Federalist systems tend to inhibit the formation of single-interest majorities. Federalism promotes unity without uniformity and promotes experimentation in public policy. For example, in the United States, individual states often serve as testing grounds for policies that later translate to the national level.

Here in Ireland, if the Dublin government refuses to relinquish its stranglehold on power, should the regions take their independence by way of local referendums? Why should the regions pay debt assumed by the Dublin government. Why should the Shannon region give up its water to support the Dublin parasite? By the same token, why should the southern and western seaboards sacrifice their precious resources of oil and gas to the glutton that is the Pale? Why should the Dublin government not compensate the rest of the country having squandered such a disproportionate amount of EU funding within its own area – for the sole purpose of boosting the value of property for Dublin based politicians.

I would advocate a breakup of the Republic into many highly autonomous regions. Arguments for and against please.

Blowfish · 31-07-2012 01:52AM

You seem to have a rather oddly adversarial view of the country. There is no concerted attempt of 'us' vs 'them' or 'the pale' vs 'the culchies'.

The resources of Shannon etc get transferred to Dublin simply because that's where the population and economic activity is. In return, Dublin and the surrounding counties subsidise the social spend per capita of the rest of the country.

It seems to me a littLe strange that in other threads you have expressed right wing economic views, yet here you essentially want the county's to engage in what amounts to protectionism of the local resources.

As for the federalism aspect, there may be some argument for decentralisation in some areas. My biggest fear of this however is the fact that we already suffer from parish pump gombeenism politics. Decentralising more could possibly just lead to the local representatives simply becoming even more insular to solely their particular area and ignore the interests of the country as a whole completely.

Scofflaw · 31-07-2012 03:02AM

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

Could Federalism work in an Irish context?

James Madison - a great nineteenth century American statesman was quoted as saying:

“By dividing power between the states and the national government, one level can serve as a check on the other. This should provide double security to the rights of the people. Each of these interests would constitute a faction that would seek its own advantage, and one faction might come to dominate government or a part of government in one place, and a different faction might come to power in another. The tugging and pulling of these factions would prevent any single region of the United states from dominating all of government. The division of powers among several governments would give to virtually every faction an opportunity to gain some-but not full-power.”

Federalist systems tend to inhibit the formation of single-interest majorities. Federalism promotes unity without uniformity and promotes experimentation in public policy. For example, in the United States, individual states often serve as testing grounds for policies that later translate to the national level.

Here in Ireland, if the Dublin government refuses to relinquish its stranglehold on power, should the regions take their independence by way of local referendums? Why should the regions pay debt assumed by the Dublin government. Why should the Shannon region give up its water to support the Dublin parasite? By the same token, why should the southern and western seaboards sacrifice their precious resources of oil and gas to the glutton that is the Pale? Why should the Dublin government not compensate the rest of the country having squandered such a disproportionate amount of EU funding within its own area – for the sole purpose of boosting the value of property for Dublin based politicians.

I would advocate a breakup of the Republic into many highly autonomous regions. Arguments for and against please.

Perhaps the only necessary argument is that your figures are very wrong. The rest of the country not only doesn't subsidise Dublin, but on the contrary is subsidised by Dublin. Figures I have now posted several times in response to such claims:

Scofflaw wrote:

Firblog wrote: »

Cheers

Could you post a link to where these figures came from please? These figures without some background info are not very informative imo

CSO Regional income figures 2007: http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/economy/2007/regincome_2007.pdf

These are the comparable 2009 figures (CSO), with CAP from here, GNI contribution based on household income without taxes or transfers:

County|Pop|Transfers(m)|Taxes(m)|Transfers pp|Taxes pp|CAP(m)|CAP pp|GNI pp|Final Net pp
Carlow|54255|368|191|6782.79|3520.41|37.78|696.35|206.77|3751.96
Cavan|68585.68|397|250|5788.38|3645.08|67.06|977.77|212.75|2908.33
Clare|114922.3|652|488|5673.4|4246.35|84.62|736.32|232.88|1930.49
Cork|502128.26|2984|2337|5942.7|4654.19|237.63|473.24|251.33|1510.43
Donegal|157838.27|1056|444|6690.39|2813.01|96.3|610.09|170.67|4316.81
Dublin|1211506.83|7175|7965|5922.38|6574.46|23.74|19.6|323.44|-955.92
Galway|241232.03|1493|1032|6189.06|4278.04|151.08|626.29|240.34|2296.98
Kerry|145875.68|861|511|5902.29|3502.98|109.82|752.84|203.01|2949.13
Kildare|205969.74|1017|1158|4937.62|5622.19|41.51|201.53|289|-772.04
Kilkenny|94325.11|513|377|5438.64|3996.81|74.61|790.96|226.34|2006.45
Laois|72128.96|397|283|5504.03|3923.53|51.02|707.28|223.77|2064.01
Leitrim|31038.66|200|107|6443.58|3447.31|39.21|1263.22|207.8|4051.69
Limerick|190673.58|1309|824|6865.14|4321.52|77.98|408.96|235.93|2716.65
Longford|36954.84|257|131|6954.43|3544.87|33.32|901.66|200.34|4110.88
Louth|119233.16|777|462|6516.64|3874.76|26.88|225.44|227.13|2640.2
Mayo|128974.54|818|454|6342.34|3520.07|119.11|923.53|207.75|3538.05
Meath|180031.48|799|963|4438.11|5349.06|64.92|360.58|279.09|-829.46
Monaghan|60018.88|352|194|5864.82|3232.32|54.12|901.72|190.84|3343.39
North-Tipperary|68376.48|424|277|6200.96|4051.1|72.23|1056.35|231.4|2974.82
Offaly|76204.29|442|267|5800.2|3503.74|49.97|655.73|203.32|2748.87
Roscommon|61178.29|347|224|5671.95|3661.43|66.38|1085.05|216.22|2879.35
Sligo|65289.94|407|265|6233.73|4058.82|44.54|682.21|231.19|2625.94
South-Tipperary|89663.76|555|354|6189.79|3948.08|72.23|805.56|223.35|2823.92
Waterford|116320.65|774|454|6654.02|3903|55.09|473.62|218.27|3006.36
Westmeath|85325.95|533|334|6246.63|3914.4|54.06|633.55|219.92|2745.86
Wexford|141932.52|921|497|6489|3501.66|84.12|592.68|206.48|3373.53
Wicklow|139510.07|716|724|5132.25|5189.59|38.28|274.41|265.19|-48.12

So, Donegal people are net recipients from the whole system to the tune of €4,316.81 per capita annually. I should perhaps point out that I don't begrudge this transfer, but I do object very strongly to people at the other end pretending it doesn't happen.

It's unrealistic to expect somewhere like Donegal to be able to pay its own way in a modern economy - the costs of providing infrastructure and services per person are very much higher than they are in an urban area like Dublin, while for standard geographical reasons it's not going to attract the same mass of businesses as Dublin.

How about if the counties paid their own way? The following table shows income/capita with taxes and transfers, without, and each in turn as a proportion of Dublin income:

County|A. Income pp|B. Income w/o tax/transfer|A/Dublin|B/Dublin
Carlow|23426.41|20164.04|0.76|0.64
Cavan|22891.08|20747.77|0.74|0.66
Clare|24138.05|22711|0.78|0.72
Cork|25798.19|24509.67|0.84|0.78
Donegal|20521.01|16643.62|0.66|0.53
Dublin|30890.46|31542.54|1|1
Galway|25349.04|23438.02|0.82|0.74
Kerry|22196.98|19797.68|0.72|0.63
Kildare|27499.19|28183.75|0.89|0.89
Kilkenny|23514.42|22072.59|0.76|0.7
Laois|23402.53|21822.03|0.76|0.69
Leitrim|23261.31|20265.05|0.75|0.64
Limerick|25551.52|23007.91|0.83|0.73
Longford|22946.93|19537.36|0.74|0.62
Louth|24791.76|22149.88|0.8|0.7
Mayo|23082.07|20259.81|0.75|0.64
Meath|26306.51|27217.46|0.85|0.86
Monaghan|21243.32|18610.81|0.69|0.59
North-Tipperary|24716.1|22566.24|0.8|0.72
Offaly|22124.74|19828.28|0.72|0.63
Roscommon|23096.43|21085.91|0.75|0.67
Sligo|24720.5|22545.59|0.8|0.71
South-Tipperary|24023.08|21781.38|0.78|0.69
Waterford|24037|21285.99|0.78|0.67
Westmeath|23779.4|21447.17|0.77|0.68
Wexford|23123.66|20136.33|0.75|0.64
Wicklow|25804.59|25861.93|0.84|0.82

Dublin is not a "parasite" - it is the only real economic engine the country has, and the rest of the country is subsidised by the wealth generated in Dublin.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Hawkeye123 · 31-07-2012 10:22AM

The Dublin government love to spin statistical data. A pig called Squealer played a similar role the the Orwellian classic Animal Farm. Truth and spin are two very different things, even if the spin appears to be supported by statistical data. Very often statistics are commissioned and selected for the very purpose of supporting a particular spin doctrine.

It is however true that the Dublin government would love the rest of the country to think that Dublin in some way contributes more than it takes. However, even the Dubs do not believe that, if they did they would demand their own independent republic. That way everything the Dubs generate they keep and everything the rest of the country generates - it would keep. The reason the Dubs will never seek their own autonomy is because they would run out of resources within 24 hours.

The Shannon region have every right to capitalize on their resources. If the Dubs want water from the Shannon let them pay for it. If the Dubs want oil and gas from the Western and Southern seaboards, let them pay the regions in the west and south - and let them do so through taxing their own people not the people of the west and south.

One final point, mass privatization across the entire public sector/civil service would save the 25 counties which are beyond the pale from having to pay billions to those within it.

oscarBravo · 31-07-2012 10:27AM

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

The Dublin government love to spin statistical data.

I see the war on reasoned debate continues apace.

If you believe the statistics to be untrue, counter them with statistics of your own, and explain why you believe your statistics to be more reliable.

Scofflaw · 31-07-2012 01:51PM

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

The Dublin government love to spin statistical data. A pig called Squealer played a similar role the the Orwellian classic Animal Farm. Truth and spin are two very different things, even if the spin appears to be supported by statistical data. Very often statistics are commissioned and selected for the very purpose of supporting a particular spin doctrine.

It is however true that the Dublin government would love the rest of the country to think that Dublin in some way contributes more than it takes. However, even the Dubs do not believe that, if they did they would demand their own independent republic. That way everything the Dubs generate they keep and everything the rest of the country generates - it would keep. The reason the Dubs will never seek their own autonomy is because they would run out of resources within 24 hours.

The Shannon region have every right to capitalize on their resources. If the Dubs want water from the Shannon let them pay for it. If the Dubs want oil and gas from the Western and Southern seaboards, let them pay the regions in the west and south - and let them do so through taxing their own people not the people of the west and south.

One final point, mass privatization across the entire public sector/civil service would save the 25 counties which are beyond the pale from having to pay billions to those within it.

Save the conspiracy theory stuff for the CT forum, please. As oB says, a refusal to accept facts doesn't constitute argument.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Hawkeye123 · 31-07-2012 07:20PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

I see the war on reasoned debate continues apace.

If you believe the statistics to be untrue, counter them with statistics of your own, and explain why you believe your statistics to be more reliable.

Lets assume for the sake of illustration that Scofflaws statistics are correct.

It is well known that private investment follows public infrastructural investment which in turn leads to greater revenue returns from those areas which receive the greatest amount of infrastructural investment. Therefore, Scofflaws statistics prove that the Dublin government was wrong to over invest so grotesquely in the infrastructure of the greater Dublin area. Just think of the revenue that could be generated from the rest of the country if the Dublin government had bothered to invest there instead of one tiny bit of the east.

wexie · 31-07-2012 07:35PM

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

Lets assume for the sake of illustration that Scofflaws statistics are correct.

It is well known that private investment follows public infrastructural investment which in turn leads to greater revenue returns from those areas which receive the greatest amount of infrastructural investment. Therefore, Scofflaws statistics prove that the Dublin government was wrong to over invest so grotesquely in the infrastructure of the greater Dublin area. Just think of the revenue that could be generated from the rest of the country if the Dublin government had bothered to invest there instead of one tiny bit of the east.

right.....so what you're saying essentially is 'if you build it they will come'?

So with the right investment we could see the likes of Intel, HP, Pfizer, Facebook, Google etc. etc. etc. setting up shop in Killybegs right?

That's not actually your argument is it?

I think you'll find that private investment follows public investment because public investment gets made in places where it's likely to deliver a return.

And as much as you might not like it, in a country the size of Ireland having more than a few centres of any kind of commerce simply isn't economically viable without ludicrous investments in infrastructure which will never show any decent ROI.

sarkozy · 01-08-2012 09:59AM

I think it's a real shame - and disillusioning barometer of the quality of our civil society - that we can't discuss these important issues sensibly.

Our country has a democratic deficit. Our national-to-local governance structures and how they are resourced are dysfunctional. Our collective political mindset is to moan but to do nothing. We are - and have for at least a century - been a very reactionary and conservative people.

In a previous job I spent the guts of a year researching our local government system and proposing ways to reform it. I would say, between then and now, our governments have made the situation worse.

I'm from Dublin. I recognise there is an urban-rural cleavage in this country. I also recognise that our national politicians act as local councillors. Most TDs are from rural areas. National-level policy - which is the constitutional responsibility of the Oireachtas - is treated as local-level policy. Local Authorities (a currently dysfunctional tier of governance) do not have the functions or powers to do what they have theoretically been set up to do. In fact, because they do not have the power to raise their own resources, they must grovel to central Government each year to do what central Government has tasked them with doing. But the Government and Dáil, significantly represented by people from rural areas, decide to let this failure of a system continue.

Why?

To centralise power. It seems to me that it is, in fact, the two major parties with significant rural representations are the ones driving this centralisation agenda, depriving regional and local communities proper autonomy that, if designed and delivered well, could lead to a more democratic republic with more effective and accountable public services and closely-knit communities.

I said we have an urban-rural social cleavage. This is true: the metropolis - Dublin - is also a significant, and distinct, geographical area, which now spreads out into surrounding counties. The Dublin 'functional area' is now incorporating sub-urban, peri-urban and rural zones, and this is complicating the picture.

We need a sane national governance structure. Dublin takes care of national-level policy, strategic and legal frameworks leaving space for regional and/or local governments to implement those plans because they know those areas best. If local people pay local income taxes, they will want to be sure their councillors are spending their money well, and that would build a social contract between local communities and those representing them at local level. Central government, drawn from politicians across Ireland, would ensure the big picture stuff is the right environment for us at local level to lead our own lives and drive our own regional economic development.

If rural people do not trust government, and they want more local autonomy, the problem is not Dublin, but with the political parties who represent rural people.

We need real local government, with truly accountable local politicians who we look to first to fix things.

Scofflaw · 01-08-2012 11:15AM

sarkozy wrote:

If rural people do not trust government, and they want more local autonomy, the problem is not Dublin, but with the political parties who represent rural people.

We need real local government, with truly accountable local politicians who we look to first to fix things.

Absolutely - Irish government is highly centralised, and has become noticeably more so even over the last 30 years. The central government gutted the local authorities' funding in 1977 with the abolition of domestic rates, something which primarily affected the rural areas by decoupling local authority funding from the local population, and which disempowered the local authorities by making them reliant on central government for nearly half their funding. Successive central governments have continued to roll back the powers of local government to a point where council elections are next to meaningless.

The only major decision-making power left in the hands of local councils is local planning, and the only reason that's been left there is that it provides a local channel for graft and favours.

And, as you say, all of this has happened under the aegis of political parties with strong rural representation. The grip of "Dublin" has been increased not to benefit Dublin - which winds up paying for it, but it's not as if we Dubliners have any kind of extra say in what happens - but to benefit rural political parties, who thereby ensure that their own rural power bases are fed through a pipe they sit on, and which is largely piping Dublin money out around the country.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Hawkeye123 · 01-08-2012 02:28PM

wexie wrote: »

right.....so what you're saying essentially is 'if you build it they will come'?

So with the right investment we could see the likes of Intel, HP, Pfizer, Facebook, Google etc. etc. etc. setting up shop in Killybegs right?

That's not actually your argument is it?

Yes it is. This has been demonstrated time and again since the dawn of the industrial revolution.

Dr Galen · 01-08-2012 07:29PM

Thread is not of sufficient standard to remain in Political Theory. Moved to main forum

Cheers

DrG

Shea O'Meara · 01-08-2012 08:45PM

It's a question of one capital or many hubs.
A country as small as ours doesn't warrant it. And as shown with the decentralisation fiasco, not a runner.

Please be careful not to give fuel to the misnomer that everything in and about Dublin is orchestrated and led solely by people born and raised in Dublin.

RichardAnd · 01-08-2012 09:04PM

The old Irish game of "us" vs "them" has reached a new level. OP, if Dublin was somehow removed from the country in whatever way you seem to think that is possible, you won't have anyone to begrudge. Methinks, you are the class of person to whom such a position might be quite unwelcome

.

View · 01-08-2012 09:28PM

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

It's a question of one capital or many hubs.
A country as small as ours doesn't warrant it. And as shown with the decentralisation fiasco, not a runner.

Moving highly centralized government departments from one place to another is NOT "decentralization" - it is "relocation". The government departments lose none of their powers in the process.

"Decentralisation" involves taking power away from the central government and giving it to local government.

Given that our highly centralized governmental system currently has the international equivalent of "the examiners" in - i.e. the IMF - presumably the word "fiasco" should be more appropriately applied to our centralized governmental system...

onedmc · 01-08-2012 09:44PM

Although my thinking is contrary to hawkeye we do have a local/regional government deficit in Ireland.

We should consider scrapping current county councils in favour of 6 or 7 regional centres with tax collection powers. Also allowing them to pass civil laws.

Additionally a directly elected mayor for each town or large village with tax setting and revenue allocation powers would allow people to really feel like its 'their' money that's is being spent or minded.

We could then have a very relevant 3 tier system with 1/10 of current number of politicians and 1/2 of the staff doing more of what the people want.

AltAccount · 01-08-2012 09:44PM

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

The Dublin government love to spin statistical data. A pig called Squealer played a similar role the the Orwellian classic Animal Farm. Truth and spin are two very different things, even if the spin appears to be supported by statistical data. Very often statistics are commissioned and selected for the very purpose of supporting a particular spin doctrine.

It is however true that the Dublin government would love the rest of the country to think that Dublin in some way contributes more than it takes. However, even the Dubs do not believe that, if they did they would demand their own independent republic. That way everything the Dubs generate they keep and everything the rest of the country generates - it would keep. The reason the Dubs will never seek their own autonomy is because they would run out of resources within 24 hours.

The Shannon region have every right to capitalize on their resources. If the Dubs want water from the Shannon let them pay for it. If the Dubs want oil and gas from the Western and Southern seaboards, let them pay the regions in the west and south - and let them do so through taxing their own people not the people of the west and south.

One final point, mass privatization across the entire public sector/civil service would save the 25 counties which are beyond the pale from having to pay billions to those within it.

In what manner are you distinguishing between Dubliners and people from other areas of the country who work in Dublin, but have family and roots outside of Dublin?
Why would this significant number of people choose to deprive their friends and relations of resources?
In terms of the people who make the decisions as to where the resources and funds are directed, ostensibly the politicians, how many of them are Dubliners and how many represent other areas of the country?

View · 01-08-2012 09:52PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

Perhaps the only necessary argument is that your figures are very wrong. The rest of the country not only doesn't subsidise Dublin, but on the contrary is subsidised by Dublin. Figures I have now posted several times in response to such claims:

Dublin is not a "parasite" - it is the only real economic engine the country has, and the rest of the country is subsidised by the wealth generated in Dublin.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The statistics you provide are no doubt accurate but in large part reflect the position of Dublin as the seat of our centralized government with the vast bulk of our civil servants operating in or near Leinster House. This in turn attracts businesses who want to be close to the seat of power.

As such the statistics are distorted - it is simply wrong to claim that "Dublin" is making all the contribution shown when a large chunk of that includes the "State" pumping money into the "Dublin" economy.

Were the "State" to relocate to Sligo in the morning, no one would think that "Sligo" was subsidizing the rest of the economy when the "State's" contribution - and those of the industries and bodies that would follow it - started to show up in the "Sligo" section of the statistics.

PS In addition, the statistics fail to break out the other cities from the surrounding counties, so it is impossible to tell if this is an "urban" V's "rural" issue or not. Also, it aggregates all the Dublin region which could mean cross-subsidizing is going on between one or more of the 3 counties and city that make it up but this gets hidden by the aggregated data.

sarkozy · 01-08-2012 09:56PM

onedmc wrote: »

Although my thinking is contrary to hawkeye we do have a local/regional government deficit in Ireland.

We should consider scrapping current county councils in favour of 6 or 7 regional centres with tax collection powers. Also allowing them to pass civil laws.

Additionally a directly elected mayor for each town or large village with tax setting and revenue allocation powers would allow people to really feel like its 'their' money that's is being spent or minded.

We could then have a very relevant 3 tier system with 1/10 of current number of politicians and 1/2 of the staff doing more of what the people want.

Not massively unlike what I was working on in a previous job.

There's lots of good sense in this thread.

View · 01-08-2012 09:59PM

Just for comparison purposes, the UK based "Unlock Democracy" org did an international comparison of how autonomous local government in various countries are.

Most scored in the 7 -10 range on a 12 point scale; ours scored zero.

The comparison is here.

Hawkeye123 · 02-08-2012 12:36AM

AltAccount wrote: »

In what manner are you distinguishing between Dubliners and people from other areas of the country who work in Dublin, but have family and roots outside of Dublin?
Why would this significant number of people choose to deprive their friends and relations of resources?
In terms of the people who make the decisions as to where the resources and funds are directed, ostensibly the politicians, how many of them are Dubliners and how many represent other areas of the country?

People who work in the public sector often have no choice but to move to Dublin to gain promotion.

While politicians may come from all over the country, the senior civil servants are far more likely to come from Dublin. If you have ever watched the comedy series Yes Minister you will understand how that group can wield undue influence over the government.

Scofflaw · 02-08-2012 12:50AM

View wrote: »

The statistics you provide are no doubt accurate but in large part reflect the position of Dublin as the seat of our centralized government with the vast bulk of our civil servants operating in or near Leinster House. This in turn attracts businesses who want to be close to the seat of power.

As such the statistics are distorted - it is simply wrong to claim that "Dublin" is making all the contribution shown when a large chunk of that includes the "State" pumping money into the "Dublin" economy.

Were the "State" to relocate to Sligo in the morning, no one would think that "Sligo" was subsidizing the rest of the economy when the "State's" contribution - and those of the industries and bodies that would follow it - started to show up in the "Sligo" section of the statistics.

Those are both fair criticisms - the first is the "capital effect", or "court effect" as it used to be.

However, I'm not sure the capital effect in terms of the public sector is quite as large as one might think. First, the "public sector" as a whole is not necessarily that concentrated in Dublin - the following groups form the public sector (371,200 employed in 2009) overall:

Civil Service (39,000);
Defence forces (11,000);
Garda Síochána (14,400);
Local authorities (37,000);
Education (excluding private institutions) (104,000);
Health (111,000);
Semi-State bodies (excluding their subsidiary companies) (52,000)

Of those, the ones that we can expect to be concentrated in Dublin are the Civil Service and the Semi-States and Agencies - the rest are, as far as I can see, distributed roughly in proportion to population. The Civil Service comprises about 39,000 employees, of which somewhere around a third remain in Dublin after the decentralisation programme, which isn't that out of line with per capita expectations (source: http://www.decentralisation.gov.ie/Documents/DIG_Reports.html), given Dublin has a population a quarter that of the State, while Dublin plus its immediate hinterland comprises roughly 40% of the population of the State.

Of the semi-states, the majority (41-43,000 depending on definition) are in the commercial semi-state sector, and that in turn breaks down as:

An Post|10970
ESB Group|7870
Irish Rail|4906
Dublin Bus|3825
Dublin Airport Authority|3200
Bus Éireann|2837
RTE Group|2351
Bord na Mona|2064
Coillte|1250
VHI|913
Bord Gáis|911
Irish Aviation Authority|666
Shannon Free Airport Development Company|335
Eirgrid|225
Dublin Port Company|166
Port of Cork Company|126
National Lottery|92
TG4 (formerly TnaG)|86
Irish National Stud|78
Port of Waterford|52
Shannon Foynes Port|48
Dun Laoighaire Port|42
Galway Port|18
Drogheda Port|16
Dundalk Port|16
New Ross Port Company|10
Wicklow Port|3

Again, some of those very clearly Dublin-based or Dublin-weighted, but by no means all. And Ireland has a relatively small public sector overall, so while I agree that's a fair criticism of the statistics, on balance I think Dublin may not actually have all that many extra public sector jobs per capita.

PS In addition, the statistics fail to break out the other cities from the surrounding counties, so it is impossible to tell if this is an "urban" V's "rural" issue or not. Also, it aggregates all the Dublin region which could mean cross-subsidizing is going on between one or more of the 3 counties and city that make it up but this gets hidden by the aggregated data.

There's obviously very large cross-subsidies within Dublin, and those will also be present within the other counties. However, that's not really relevant here.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dannyboy83 · 02-08-2012 12:57AM

View wrote: »

The statistics you provide are no doubt accurate but in large part reflect the position of Dublin as the seat of our centralized government with the vast bulk of our civil servants operating in or near Leinster House. This in turn attracts businesses who want to be close to the seat of power.

As such the statistics are distorted - it is simply wrong to claim that "Dublin" is making all the contribution shown when a large chunk of that includes the "State" pumping money into the "Dublin" economy.

Were the "State" to relocate to Sligo in the morning, no one would think that "Sligo" was subsidizing the rest of the economy when the "State's" contribution - and those of the industries and bodies that would follow it - started to show up in the "Sligo" section of the statistics.

PS In addition, the statistics fail to break out the other cities from the surrounding counties, so it is impossible to tell if this is an "urban" V's "rural" issue or not. Also, it aggregates all the Dublin region which could mean cross-subsidizing is going on between one or more of the 3 counties and city that make it up but this gets hidden by the aggregated data.

Is there any particular reason why the government is located in Dublin?

I always thought it was very strange when it would have cured such a vast array of problems to just buy up a huge chunk of land in Meath, move the whole lot there to state of the art, custom built offices and decongest Dublin/facilitate new growth.

Scofflaw · 02-08-2012 01:19AM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Is there any particular reason why the government is located in Dublin?

I always thought it was very strange when it would have cured such a vast array of problems to just buy up a huge chunk of land in Meath, move the whole lot there to state of the art, custom built offices and decongest Dublin/facilitate new growth.

Which is the logic that gave us the decentralisation programme, terminated prematurely and ignominiously last year.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nuac · 02-08-2012 08:51AM

Interesting thread.

There is undue concentration of resources and services in Dublin.

The Buchanan Plan proposals of nearly 50 years ago proposed development of other centres - Galway, Limerick etc as far as I remember.

Strongly opposed by many at the time, including myself, and officially abandoned.

However IDA seem t ohave followed it - building up industiral employment in some provincial centres.

I agree generally with Scofflaw's remarks.

Will get back to this again - gotta do some work

JustinDee · 02-08-2012 09:04AM

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

The Dublin government love to spin statistical data

I think you'll find there is no "Dublin government". There is a Dublin Corporation but that concerns itself with Dublin-related administrative matters only.
There is, however, the Dail, which as you hopefully realise, is made up of representatives from every county in the country.

I'm not even going to entertain a comment on your simplistic and simply, incorrect mathematics.
Your generalism about senior civil servants is equally as trite and baseless.

Hawkeye123 · 02-08-2012 12:19PM

JustinDee wrote: »

There is a Dublin Corporation ... that concerns itself with Dublin-related administrative matters only.

So does the Dublin government. The rest of the country is left with nothing.

JustinDee · 02-08-2012 12:28PM

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

So does the Dublin government . . .

There is no such thing.

southsiderosie · 02-08-2012 12:31PM

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

People who work in the public sector often have no choice but to move to Dublin to gain promotion.

While politicians may come from all over the country, the senior civil servants are far more likely to come from Dublin. If you have ever watched the comedy series Yes Minister you will understand how that group can wield undue influence over the government.

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

So does the Dublin government. The rest of the country is left with nothing.

MOD NOTE:

The question of centralization could actually make for an interesting discussion, but you seem oddly intent on derailing your own thread.

There has already been one moderator warning, and at this point, it is getting hard to see your posts as anything but trolling. Either come up with some actual figures on what the "Dublin Government" does or does not do and the structure of the public sector so folks can have a proper debate about it, or stop posting these kinds of wild statements; this forum is neither Liveline nor a personal blog.

goose2005 · 02-08-2012 04:25PM

nuac wrote: »

Interesting thread.

There is undue concentration of resources and services in Dublin.

The Buchanan Plan proposals of nearly 50 years ago proposed development of other centres - Galway, Limerick etc as far as I remember.

Strongly opposed by many at the time, including myself, and officially abandoned.

However IDA seem t ohave followed it - building up industiral employment in some provincial centres.

I agree generally with Scofflaw's remarks.

Will get back to this again - gotta do some work

The problem is that those outside Dublin won't agree to just develop Cork, Limerick and Galway into major cities. They want money to be spent on the tiny town 10 miles from their house, with the result that spending is spread too thinly to make any real difference and Dublin continues to dominate.

Tombo2001 · 02-08-2012 04:31PM

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

Here in Ireland, if the Dublin government refuses to relinquish its stranglehold on power, should the regions take their independence by way of local referendums? Why should the regions pay debt assumed by the Dublin government. Why should the Shannon region give up its water to support the Dublin parasite? By the same token, why should the southern and western seaboards sacrifice their precious resources of oil and gas to the glutton that is the Pale? Why should the Dublin government not compensate the rest of the country having squandered such a disproportionate amount of EU funding within its own area – for the sole purpose of boosting the value of property for Dublin based politicians.

I would advocate a breakup of the Republic into many highly autonomous regions. Arguments for and against please.

Jasus, all of a sudden its a Dublin government and not an Irish government.

You would swear the current Taoiseach wasnt from Mayo and the previous wasnt from Offaly.

Yep, I agree with you completely.

I would be quite happy to let country people pay their own way so that Dublin people dont have to subsidise them. All for federalism.

To be honest, reading this you are not being serious at all......why are we answering.....doh!

Is it time to end Dublin`s stranglehold on the rest of the country?

Comments