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markhumphrys.com

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    #182
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    humphrys wrote: »
    For the same reason that the Socialist Workers Party in Ireland supports Hamas and Hezbollah.

    http://markhumphrys.com/iawm.html

    Human stupidity.
    It couldn't possibly be that there are other motives behind what Palestinians are doing? Can you even see the possibility that Islam is not the sole motivating factor for the Palestinians?


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    #183
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    humphrys wrote: »
    No I wouldn't.

    I would take such statements seriously.

    I would be very interested.
    Something tells me that (a) yes, you would and (b) and (c) no, you wouldn't.


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    #184
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    I have to say - I had Mark's perspective pegged for cookie-cutter wingnut, and in the main - he lives down to that label, but then I find his USP mixed in with all the dhimmis and reds under the bed stuff - Mark's vote for 'best Taoiseach ever'?


    Well... that would be Bertie of course!

    Umm.

    http://markhumphrys.com/vote.html


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    #185
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    alastair wrote: »
    I have to say - I had Mark's perspective pegged for cookie-cutter wingnut, and in the main - he lives down to that label, but then I find his USP mixed in with all the dhimmis and reds under the bed stuff - Mark's vote for 'best Taoiseach ever'?


    Well... that would be Bertie of course!

    Umm.

    http://markhumphrys.com/vote.html
    Well he did help fight the good fight against "Islamism" in Iraq and Afghanistan, because like that's been such a success and all that.


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    #186
    humphrys
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭humphrys


    Frank Grimes wrote: »
    Well he did help fight the good fight against "Islamism" in Iraq and Afghanistan, because like that's been such a success and all that.

    Guys, can we stay on topic for a second. I could happily discuss new topics, but that would be an anti-climax.

    I was hoping you would dig me up some atheist terrorists against Israel. I thought I was going to learn something new.

    You're letting me down here.


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    #187
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    humphrys wrote: »
    Guys, can we stay on topic for a second. I could happily discuss new topics, but that would be an anti-climax.

    I was hoping you would dig me up some atheist terrorists against Israel. I thought I was going to learn something new.

    You're letting me down here.


    ...but unless one of them signed a document as laid out by you, you wouldn't accept it. Secondly you already define anyone who attacks Israel as a Jihadi.

    You haven't answered my question, btw - are you saying that atheists never carried out an atrocity?


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    #188
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    humphrys wrote: »
    I was hoping you would dig me up some atheist terrorists against Israel. I thought I was going to learn something new.

    You're letting me down here.
    I never said I was going to do that Mark, you have an interesting habit of twisting what people say. I was actually looking up information on some of the Marxist (or fanatical Islamofascist, if you prefer) Palestinian groups, how do you account for George Habash? Was he lying about being a Marxist, or being from a Christian background? Before you start your usual deflections, please bear in mind that I have been saying that Islam is not, in case of the Israel/Palestine conflict amongst others, nor should it be viewed as the sole criterion to explain the actions of individuals or groups involved. Also I, and I would guess some of the other posters here, are working under the assumption that self-declared Marxists are likely to be atheists.


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    #189
    humphrys
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭humphrys


    Frank Grimes wrote: »
    I was actually looking up information on some of the Marxist (or fanatical Islamofascist, if you prefer) Palestinian groups, how do you account for George Habash? Was he lying about being a Marxist, or being from a Christian background?

    No he was a Christian fighter for the great Islamic war against Israel, like many fools before him, starting with Sirhan Sirhan in 1968. As I said, his PFLP was last seen cutting Jew children's throats, last year, so I don't know exactly how "secular" they are.



    I get the impression Arab Christians have more sense now. They have seen in Hamas and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades the true face of the Palestinian cause (not to mention Palestinian massacres of Christians like Damour). They have seen the Christian population dwindle in Gaza and the PA, where Christians are persecuted, while it grows in Israel, where Christians are free. I get the impression the days of Christians supporting this jihad with terror attacks are over. (Apart from Christians who support it rhetorically, of course, like the Irish Anti-War Movement.)

    I think we had already established there are (or were) Christians who were terrorists against Israel. I guess I was fascinated if there were apostate Muslims too. I was hoping someone could find some. This all started when someone said Abu Nidal was one. But no proof of that was presented.

    My claim is not that people like Habash (if any still exist) are personally motivated by Islam/Islamism. My claim is that, nevertheless, they are fighters in an Islamic war. That their attacks are attacks in the cause of Islamic terror. And their defeat is a victory for those fighting Islamic terror.


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    #190
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    humphrys wrote: »
    No he was a Christian fighter for the great Islamic war against Israel, like many fools before him, starting with Sirhan Sirhan in 1968..

    So even if they aren't, they are. How convenient.
    humphrys wrote: »

    As I said, his PFLP was last seen cutting Jew children's throats, last year, so I don't know exactly how "secular" they are.
    ..

    You might clarify - secular and atheist people don't commit atrocities?


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    #191
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Frank Grimes wrote: »
    I never said I was going to do that Mark, you have an interesting habit of twisting what people say. I was actually looking up information on some of the Marxist (or fanatical Islamofascist, if you prefer) Palestinian groups, how do you account for George Habash? Was he lying about being a Marxist, or being from a Christian background? Before you start your usual deflections, please bear in mind that I have been saying that Islam is not, in case of the Israel/Palestine conflict amongst others, nor should it be viewed as the sole criterion to explain the actions of individuals or groups involved. Also I, and I would guess some of the other posters here, are working under the assumption that self-declared Marxists are likely to be atheists.

    And of course it presumes that there is one level of faith, and only one way that faith can be expressed. Therefore the notion that a muslim must equate to a person guided solely by a strict jihadi outlook, rather than the reality.


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    #192
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    humphrys wrote: »
    My claim is not that people like Habash (if any still exist) are personally motivated by Islam/Islamism. My claim is that, nevertheless, they are fighters in an Islamic war.
    So basically what you're saying is that no motive exists for the actions Palestinian groups other than an Islamic one, despite what these groups say. Anyone who is not primarily identifying themselves as a Muslim (be they Marxists or else Christians etc.) and involved in actions against Israel are "fools" and any motives, other than Islamic ones, which they express are just wrong/lies. You seem to have, to put it mildly, a very blinkered view of this whole situation.


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    #193
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    Nodin wrote: »
    And of course it presumes that there is one level of faith, and only one way that faith can be expressed. Therefore the notion that a muslim must equate to a person guided solely by a strict jihadi outlook, rather than the reality.
    Yeah, I'm working off the assumption that he basically views all practising Muslims as the same (it's the usual thread in that particular ideology's thinking) - the references to Hamas/apostates from Islam seem to indicate that he views Muslims as either fanatics or people like Ayaan Hirsi-Ali, or else people who aren't 'real' Muslims.

    Of course, well for you and I at least, it's possible for someone to be a practising Muslim and yet fight an occupation based on nationalist, or whatever, principles - but not if you view the actions of all Muslims as being guided solely by Islam.


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    #194
    skelliser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭skelliser


    for someone who is supposedly right leaning you show very little understanding of economics and in particular Irish economics.
    they killed the Celtic Tiger by losing billions bailing out the banks.)
    I blame Brian Cowen, not Ahern, for wrecking the Celtic Tiger by bailing out the banks starting in Sept 2008

    the celtic tiger was always doomed to implode. This is the nature of bubbles. A basic premise of economics.

    To suggest the above as the reason for its demise is a nonsense.

    also this cracker
    Made Ireland rich. Privatisation (especially of airlines and telecoms). Low tax. Ended unemployment. Ended emigration. Ended poverty

    lol! you do realise all of these have been somewhat reversed!!
    you do realise that the privatisation of eircom is one of the worst decisions in the states history. Eircom is billions in debt and the broadband infastructure is a joke and decades behind other countries in terms of speed. So much for free enterprise!

    Also for someone who is supposedly an Atheist you seem to be quite the defender of Israel. An apartheid state where your religion
    is valued higher then your person.

    anyways your overwhelming message is anti muslim. Fair enough. each to there own.

    im out.


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    #195
    humphrys
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭humphrys


    Nodin wrote: »
    So even if they aren't, they are. How convenient.

    It's not hard to understand. Sirhan Sirhan and Habash and some other Arab Christians have been fighters in a cause entirely at odds with Christianity and the interests of Christians in the region. What is strange about that? Such sad stories are as old as human history. WW2 is full of such stories.
    Nodin wrote: »
    You might clarify - secular and atheist people don't commit atrocities?

    Of course they do. But funny enough, we have identified no atheist people on the Palestinian side. No apostate Muslims either. Now they may exist. But we haven't found them yet. I was hoping we could find some, because that would be interesting.


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    #196
    humphrys
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭humphrys


    Frank Grimes wrote: »
    Of course, well for you and I at least, it's possible for someone to be a practising Muslim and yet fight an occupation based on nationalist, or whatever, principles - but not if you view the actions of all Muslims as being guided solely by Islam.

    Let me try a paraphrase:

    The left thinks that the right is projecting primitive/antisemitic/Islamic motives onto people who are basically like us, fighting for self-determination against imperialism/oppression.

    The right thinks that the left is projecting western-centric ideas about self-determination and anti-imperialism onto people who do not share any of our western values, and who have much more ancient motivations.

    For my whole youth I was told the Palestinian movement was secular, but then as an adult all I saw was martyrdom suicide bombings, and anti-semitic hatred on Palestinian TV. I now think that what I was told in my youth was a lie.


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    #197
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    humphrys wrote: »
    The left thinks that the right is projecting primitive/antisemitic/Islamic motives onto people who are basically like us, fighting for self-determination against imperialism/oppression.
    But you are projecting purely Islamic motives onto Palestinians and dismissing anything which doesn't confirm your own theory.


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    #198
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    Also, secular groups have used suicide bombings (not just Palestinian groups, as I know you do not believe these exist) so this hardly 'proves' a purely religious motivation either.


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    #199
    humphrys
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭humphrys


    skelliser wrote: »
    for someone who is supposedly right leaning you show very little understanding of economics and in particular Irish economics.

    the celtic tiger was always doomed to implode. This is the nature of bubbles.

    Something tells me you're not the kind of person who is going to blame it on the Euro!

    Anyway, I'm sure your socialist ideas are terrific, and just what we need, but I was hoping to hear about atheist Palestinian terrorists before this thread ends. Sadly I fear that is never going to happen.
    skelliser wrote: »
    Also for someone who is supposedly an Atheist you seem to be quite the defender of Israel. An apartheid state where your religion
    is valued higher then your person.

    You know nothing about it.

    http://markhumphrys.com/israel.defence.html#atheists


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    #200
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    humphrys wrote: »
    Anyway, I'm sure your socialist ideas are terrific, and just what we need............

    For a change you might actually address the points somebody made, without having to be chased to do so. I note once more you've a handy label ready for somebody who disagrees with you.
    humphrys wrote: »
    It's not hard to understand. Sirhan Sirhan and Habash and some other Arab Christians have been fighters in a cause entirely at odds with Christianity and the interests of Christians in the region. What is strange about that? Such sad stories are as old as human history. WW2 is full of such stories. .

    So christian palestinians are/were spared the seizure of land and are treated like Israeli settlers under the occupation? Thats certainly news to me.

    And of course, were it true, that would be saying that a white person who co-operated with the ANC should not have, given the fact that his group benefited from Apartheid.
    humphrys wrote: »
    The right thinks that the left is projecting western-centric ideas about self-determination and anti-imperialism onto people who do not share any of our western values, and who have much more ancient motivations..

    Though a life-long left winger, I have to say that I wouldn't insult the mass of people with a right wing persuasion by associating them with that nonsense.

    You'll find that a peoples desire to hold onto their land is indeed fairly ancient, btw.
    humphrys wrote: »
    Of course they do. But funny enough, we have identified no atheist people on the Palestinian side. No apostate Muslims either. Now they may exist. But we haven't found them yet. I was hoping we could find some, because that would be interesting.

    ....but as you won't accept any examples that don't have a signed renunciation of Islam attached, that would be a pointless exercise on my part. Why waste the time.


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    #201
    humphrys
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭humphrys


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....but as you won't accept any examples that don't have a signed renunciation of Islam attached, that would be a pointless exercise on my part. Why waste the time.

    You claim that such people exist, but you refuse to name any. You don't see the problem here?


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    #202
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    humphrys wrote: »
    You claim that such people exist, but you refuse to name any. You don't see the problem here?

    I already named one. From memory Leila Khaled, Taysir Khalid, Majid Al Masri, Fuad Nasser....


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    #203
    Eggy Baby!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    The only thing liberal about this guy is his use of the word "Islamofascists"


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    #204
    humphrys
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭humphrys


    Nodin wrote: »
    I already named one.

    No. Habash is Christian.
    Nodin wrote: »
    From memory Leila Khaled,

    Now we're getting places. Is Leila Khaled really an apostate from Islam? Proof please.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Taysir Khalid, Majid Al Masri, Fuad Nasser....

    I don't know these guys. Are they apostates from Islam? Proof please.


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    #205
    V_Moth
    Registered Users Posts: 1,423 ✭✭✭V_Moth


    humphrys wrote: »
    No. Habash is Christian.



    Now we're getting places. Is Leila Khaled really an apostate from Islam? Proof please.



    I don't know these guys. Are they apostates from Islam? Proof please.

    Hold on a minute...I'll just quickly fly into Gaza City Airport and interview these guys. Oh wait I can't because the Israeli Army won't let me into Gaza and destroyed the Airport for no reason.


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    #206
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    humphrys wrote: »
    Something tells me you're not the kind of person who is going to blame it on the Euro!

    I love that as a Euro sentiment and even Delors has admitted the euro has/had structural flaws from inception.

    Well done for standing up for your beliefs and I agree with your point that it is wishful thinking that the Palestinians are looking to the west for a system of government or values. Their world view is an arab world view as that is their reality and who their "friends" are.

    Our "friends" are those we are economically tied too. I don't think it is too much to say that those interests are the "national interest".


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    #207
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,782 ✭✭✭SeanW


    skelliser wrote: »
    Also for someone who is supposedly an Atheist you seem to be quite the defender of Israel. An apartheid state where your religion
    is valued higher then your person.
    As opposed to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Indonesia, virtually every Islamic country on Earth.

    I find it bizarre that anyone should exclusively cite Israel, (the only Jewish country on Earth) as a country where "your religion is valued higher than your person" when there are 40-something Islamic countries, in which virtually all of them, that description is far more apt.


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    #208
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    humphrys wrote: »
    No. Habash is Christian..

    Abu Nidal is the one I referred to earlier.
    humphrys wrote: »
    Now we're getting places. Is Leila Khaled really an apostate from Islam? Proof please.

    I don't know these guys. .

    Is your google broke?
    humphrys wrote: »
    Are they apostates from Islam? Proof please.

    What constitutes "proof"? They're all marxists.


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    #209
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Nodin wrote: »
    What constitutes "proof"? They're all marxists.

    How about Mohammed Baroud?

    Now, it's only his son's word that he was not only Marxist, but an atheist - and no doubt he can't be trusted, being all Palestinian and a stinking leftist to boot, but his da seems to check all the boxes for anyone inclined to a degree of honesty.

    http://palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=16360


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    #210
    humphrys
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭humphrys


    Nodin wrote: »
    Abu Nidal is the one I referred to earlier.

    All you said is he was a marxist and drank alcohol. Pretty weak stuff. He was buried in a Muslim cemetery you know?
    Nodin wrote: »
    Is your google broke?

    Yes it is.
    The phrase "I renounce the Prophet, says Leila Khaled" gives no hits.
    Can I use your Google?
    Nodin wrote: »
    What constitutes "proof"? They're all marxists.

    Well then they ought to have no trouble declaring there is no Allah right? Are they all in the closet or something? What, you're brave enough to kill Jew children but you're still afraid to declare you don't believe in Daddy's god??

    Can I note once again that I do not claim such people (apostate Muslims who are terrorists against Israel) cannot exist. They could exist. There are all sorts of strange humans in the world. What I want to know is do they exist?


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    #211
    humphrys
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭humphrys


    alastair wrote: »
    How about Mohammed Baroud?

    Now, it's only his son's word that he was not only Marxist, but an atheist - and no doubt he can't be trusted, being all Palestinian and a stinking leftist to boot, but his da seems to check all the boxes for anyone inclined to a degree of honesty.

    http://palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=16360

    Well that's interesting. Thanks for making the effort.

    "And why Mohammed, an atheist and a Marxist, puts on his best suit and goes to vote for religious Hamas."

    Well that is interesting. An atheist voting for sharia law!
    http://markhumphrys.com/gaza.html#taliban.hell

    I did some research. (That's what I do.)
    I searched for "atheist" inside the book:
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/My-Father-Was-Freedom-Fighter/dp/0745328822/
    And got no hits at all!

    "Atheist" is the phrase of the book reviewer, not of the son (still less of the father).
    I did find the relevant page. Here it is:

    atheist.terrorists.1.jpg

    So no proof that he renounced Islam, Allah and the Prophet. Those atheist Palestinians remain elusive!
    Apart from this guy of course, who is definitely an atheist, but of course he is being persecuted by the PA:
    http://markhumphrys.com/israel.defence.html#walid.husayin

    There are other problems with the above. Mohammed Baroud died in 2008. We can't quiz him. He never said he was an atheist while he was alive (that we know of). Even his son does not exactly say it.

    There is also the problem that he is a really obscure figure. At least I think he is. He is either obscure or else he is this guy:

    http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/unconscionable-israeli-forbearance/
    This is about the Israelis in 2006 targeting: "Mohammed Baroud, local leader of the Popular Resistance Committees".

    What is the PRC?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Resistance_Committees
    Wikipedia files this under "Islamic terrorism".

    Actually I think he is not the Islamic terrorist leader above. I think he is an obscure guy. But I don't know for sure.


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