Chazz's Genealogy Project

Chazz Michael Michaels · 24-07-2012 1:22pm #1

I'm finding that I have tonnes a tiny questions, so rather than starting several threads and spamming the forum, I'm going to pop everything in here from now on.

So, I have a great-grandfather called Redmond Costelloe, which is a nice less common name to research. According to the 1911 census he was born in Fermanagh, living in Cork City, and was 36 at the time, meaning he was born around 1875.

I am having a couple of issues going beyond this point. Firstly, he isn't in the 1901 census. I checked family search, and I found a Redmond Costelloe in the Civil Reg Indexes, born 1875 (no place given) and died in Cork (which is correct). However, I find a Redmond Costelloe, born in Fermanagh in 1867, when viewing the Births & Baptisms register. Interestingly, this Redmond was in Prison in 1891, and possibly up to 1901 (I cant tell), which may explain his absence from the 1901 census.

So, am I making tenuous links here, or am I on the right track? I checked the UK 1901 census, and he doesn't seem to be there...

shanew · 24-07-2012 1:37pm

place to start is with his marriage cert if you dont have that, as it would show father's name & occupation

married 4 years, so c1907, wife and 4 children all born Cork City, so that's where I'd say the marriage was...

S.

shanew · 24-07-2012 1:40pm

likely marriage from the BMD Index

Name: Redmond Costello
Registration district: Cork
Event type: Marriage
Quarter and year: Apr - Jun 1906
Volume : 5 / page: 86

Wife's maiden name seems to be either McSweeny/M'Swiney or Murray (two Mary's on the page)
or it could be a 2nd marriage for Mary

S.

shanew · 24-07-2012 1:48pm

this looks like him in 1901 census age 32 (vs 36 in 1911). Name, place of birth and occupation match up - so his age on this, or the 1911 return is incorrect

Costello household - Gt. George's St, Cork

Costello household - 1911

1901/1911 signatures for comparison :

S.

Chazz Michael Michaels · 24-07-2012 2:15pm

shanew wrote: »

place to start is with his marriage cert if you dont have that, as it would show father's name & occupation

married 4 years, so c1907, wife and 4 children all born Cork City, so that's where I'd say the marriage was...

S.

I heard he was married twice, alright. Thanks!

shanew · 24-07-2012 2:22pm

here's a good match for his first marriage....

name: Redmond Costello
registration district: Cork
event type: Marriage
Quarter and year: Apr - Jun 1899
Volume: 5 / Page: 94

possible wife : Maria O'Brien

S.

Chazz Michael Michaels · 07-04-2013 4:16pm

Ok, recently resumed this after a break.

For the life of me, I cannot work out who my great-grandfather's parent's are. I have tried quite a few angles on this.

In the 1911 census, he is down as being 47 years old. In the 1901 census he is 33 years old.

I understand the reasons for this disparity.

They were married 19 years in 1911, for which there is a record, and Mary Agne's age is fairly consistent across both censuses, so using this and assuming the year of marraige was accurate to within five years I was able to find the most likely records on Family Search for Thomas Fleming, giving a year of birth between 1864-1866.

(As you can see, there are six records for Thomas Fleming in Limerick across a wide range, but when cross referenced with the marriage information, the later years become unlikely, for me, as they would suggest that TF was younger than MA at marriage, then was older by 1901)

YOB # Records
1859 0
1860 0
1861 0
1862 0
1863 0
1864 1
1865 1
1866 1
1867 0
1868 0
1869 0
1870 0
1871 0
1872 0
1873 1
1874 2

1864
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5YW-ZXS

1865
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F51J-X96

1866
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRHB-TH5

Thing is, I cannot conclusively find any of these parent's in the census. Nor is family search giving me much, either. So I cannot confirm parents, nor brother's and sisters for Thomas.

There is another lead I have. When the above couple had their child, Augustine, the god parents were William and Honora Fitzgerald. I have been told that there may be Fitzgerald's in my family tree, and I have found this couple in the 1911 census, I think.

If what I was told is true, William could be a cousin of Thomas', meaning a common grandfather exists between these two, but that's a can of worms I spent all yesterday wrestling with...

So, I feel like I am running in circles here. Any advice?

UPDATE: Just discovered a workhouse in Croom on the census, seems to contain the initials and ages of people I might be looking for. A lot of my families activity from that era seems to revolve around Croom. Where could I find more information on this?

shanew · 07-04-2013 5:12pm

One details to be careful of when search for civil births, is that some children were registered before a name was finalized so appear in the index, and actual record, as just 'Male'.

Are you checking all the Co. Limerick districts or focusing on specific areas ?

Not sure where you are searching for the item on your list - if that's the BMD Index then you will only see results from 1864 onwards.

You can sometimes eliminate some of the possible matches in two ways

1) look for deaths as a young child of the same name, in the same district, in the first few years after the birth. e.g. the Thomas Fleming born Glin district in 1874 seems to have died the same year.

2) look for matching extracted civil births, but note these do not cover all areas or dates. These include parents names which can help prove, or disprove a match. A reference to the page, and sometimes volume number is often included, which you can use to reference an Index record.

p.s. just noticed the 3 extracted birth you linked have different father's names. Do have you a marriage cert for your Thomas ?

Chazz Michael Michaels · 07-04-2013 5:25pm

shanew wrote: »

One details to be careful of when search for civil births, is that some children were registered before a name was finalized so appear in the index, and actual record, as just 'Male'.

Are you checking all the Co. Limerick districts or focusing on specific areas ?

Not sure where you are searching for the item on your list - if that's the BMD Index then you will only see results from 1864 onwards.

You can sometimes eliminate some of the possible matches in two ways

1) look for deaths as a young child of the same name, in the same district, in the first few years after the birth. e.g. the Thomas Fleming born Glin district in 1874 seems to have died the same year.

2) look for matching extracted civil births, but note these do not cover all areas or dates. These include parents names which can help prove, or disprove a match. A reference to the page, and sometimes volume number is often included, which you can use to reference an Index record.

p.s. just noticed the 3 extracted birth you linked have different father's names. Do have you a marriage cert for your Thomas ?

Most likely match is:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FY4G-P3T
Name: Thomas Fleming
Registration District: Croom
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Jul - Sep 1891
Estimated Birth Year:
Age (at Death):
Mother's Maiden Name:
Film Number: 101256
Volume Number: 5
Page Number: 129
Digital Folder Number: 4179388
Image Number: 00379
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

shanew · 07-04-2013 5:40pm

unfortunately there's no Mary A. or Mary Agnes cross-match, but there is a Mary Nix - no middle name.

Mary's a very common name, so it might be worth confirming the surname at some stage with a birth cert for one of the children, if the marriage doesn't conclusively match up with other details.

I've come across the surname Nix in this area before, trying to think in what context...

Shane

Chazz Michael Michaels · 07-04-2013 5:44pm

shanew wrote: »

unfortunately there's no Mary A. or Mary Agnes cross-match, but there is a Mary Nix - no middle name.

Mary's a very common name, so it might be worth confirming the surname at some stage with a birth cert for one of the children, if the marriage doesn't conclusively match up with other details.

I've come across the surname Nix in this area before, trying to think in what context...

Shane

Yes, you helped me find the Nix link some months ago, thanks again for that. That lead brought me back another two generations, to a James Farrell born in 1821.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FY4G-5ZX
Name: Mary Nix
Registration District: Croom
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Jul - Sep 1891
Estimated Birth Year:
Age (at Death):
Mother's Maiden Name:
Film Number: 101256
Volume Number: 5
Page Number: 129
Digital Folder Number: 4179388
Image Number: 00392
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

It's really finding Thomas's parents that have been causing me a lot of grief. I have tried several approaches, several hours of work, and not an inch gained....

shanew · 07-04-2013 5:53pm

start with the marriage and get the father's details and residence at the time for Thomas - otherwise no way to be certain if you have the right Fleming family.

Chazz Michael Michaels · 07-04-2013 5:55pm

shanew wrote: »

start with the marriage and get the father's details and residence at the time for Thomas - otherwise no way to be certain if you have the right Fleming family.

Ok, will do. Thanks.

I am 100% certain about the Fleming's in the 1911/01 census, just taking the step back from that generation has proved difficult, on Thomas' side.

shanew · 07-04-2013 5:57pm

best to go one step at a time.. always a danger if you skip a record in the trail back that you will end up following the wrong family, and wasting time and/or money. Plus there are always other useful clues on the actual records to add details...

p.s. always go for civil records first rather parish records if dates allow... often more details (except for godparents on baptisms)

Chazz Michael Michaels · 07-04-2013 6:09pm

What are my my options if I cannot locate the church record of the marriage of Thomas Fleming and Mary Nix on familysearch?

I have been trying various combinations and spellings. I seem to have found the civil record (as posted above), but the church record (which contains father's names) remains elusive...

shanew · 07-04-2013 6:15pm

I would go for a civil record rather than a church marriage if they were RC - sometimes father's names are not included in parish records, plus you should get occupations on a civil cert.

The marriage records on the FamilySearch site with father's names are extracted civil records, but these do not cover all area or dates (only up to about 1880).

Simplest way to establish the details is just to order a research cert from the GRO - just €4

Chazz Michael Michaels · 08-04-2013 11:01am

One last question on this. The only way to access these documents is for me to travel to Dublin?

i.e. is it possible to get these documents in local registration offices?

shanew · 08-04-2013 11:14am

by post from the GRO - the reference details apply to the National Index, so simplest to order from Roscommon

download the form from the GROIreland website, fill in your name, address, credit card, and then on a separate attached sheet put the reference from the Index, and a note stating you wish to order a research cert.

Chazz Michael Michaels · 08-04-2013 11:16am

Thanks Shane.

shanew · 08-04-2013 11:19am

here's the link : http://www.groireland.ie/apply_for_a_cert.htm

these are the details you need (the other details on the index are LDS internal references, and mean nothing to the GRO) :

Name, Year/Quarter, Registration District, Volume Number, Page Number
and the type of record - i.e. Marriage

Chazz Michael Michaels · 02-05-2013 1:05pm

Can anyone work out what the surname of this (attached) person is? My family don't know, and it is difficult to read the handwriting here.

pedroeibar1 · 02-05-2013 1:28pm

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

Can anyone work out what the surname of this (attached) person is? My family don't know, and it is difficult to read the handwriting here.

Michael Mc Inerny?

Waitsian · 02-05-2013 2:04pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Michael Mc Inerny?

That was my first thought. Could it be McGeeney?

Chazz Michael Michaels · 04-05-2013 5:13pm

Thanks. I have one more. What is the bottom profession here?

pedroeibar1 · 04-05-2013 5:26pm

Carman. Afaik a carman drove a horse and cart which he usually owned. A sort of 'courier' in today's terms as he brought loads to and from quays, businesses, etc.

shanew · 04-05-2013 5:37pm

I believe the term covers someone that carried passengers also - predecessor to the taxi.

Chazz Michael Michaels · 05-05-2013 2:06pm

Thanks.

pedroeibar1 · 14-05-2013 10:01am

shanew wrote: »

I believe the term covers someone that carried passengers also - predecessor to the taxi.

That struck a dissonant chord but I did not want to query you on it until I had some proof - I'm not sure you are correct, see http://www.thecarmen.co.uk/Default.aspx?tabid=155&language=en-US

A passenger-carryer would have been described as a 'hackney man' ?

shanew · 14-05-2013 10:24am

never seen the term hackney recorded for my Dublin or Wicklow ancestors... who where listed at various times as car and cab owners.

Of course maybe some did both carry passengers and separately transport goods ?

Various edition of Thom's (e.g. 1880s) include a section captioned 'Dublin Police Carriage Regulation and Fares', and detail regulations re 'authority to License Public Carriages in Dublin', and 'Fares for Hire of Hackney Carriages and Cabriolets, within Ten Statute Miles of the GPO', these go on to detail maximum fares for different areas, number of passengers etc.

Think maybe, in Dublin at least, the terms car and cab were a bit flexible in meaning... i.e. Public Carriages, Hackney Carriages and Cabriolets

Just to confuse things, the 1901 census shows quite a few 'Hackney Carmen' listed in Dublin ...

pedroeibar1 · 14-05-2013 10:30am

shanew wrote: »

Just to confuse things, the 1901 census shows quite a few 'Hackney Carmen' listed in Dublin ...

That's Ireland for ya, nothing but contradictions! I've no car or hackneymen in my tree, my lot were either to rich or too poor, but I do have one who was a 'hack'.

shanew · 14-05-2013 10:37am

One of my Dublin city family of 'car-men' were definitely what we would call cabbies or taxi-men ... our Wicklow ones not so certain. Several are listed as carmen, and with a base near the railway station, which makes sense for a cabbie, but also seen articles detailing providing and delivering building materials etc ... so think he may have done both, but no proof. The story is they had a livery stable but again, no evidence .... yet

pedroeibar1 · 14-05-2013 11:13am

shanew wrote: »

Several are listed as carmen, and with a base near the railway station, which makes sense for a cabbie, but also seen articles detailing providing and delivering building materials etc ... so think he may have done both, but no proof.

The use of trains often goes unnoticed for the distribution goods in the pre-WW1 era– one of my family lines lived near a station and regularly received all sorts of stuff by train – clothes, food, paint, stakes, etc, which then would have been brought on to them by car. A yard/base near a station would make sense.

pedroeibar1 · 28-05-2013 10:30am

A bit of 'carman' history - this 'car' was a trap, with sprung-back seats. Not cheap, at £36. It was joined by another six years later, from O'Gorman Bros. Ltd., Clonmel which had 'double bent back rests. Both were for private use.

Chazz's Genealogy Project

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