Allied atrocities during the Second World War >>MOD WARNING POST 80<<

Shredder66 · 22-07-2012 2:45pm

golden lane wrote: »

i suggest you start a thread on the history of the british empire.....the information on british atrocities is freely available....as is the information on all empires....

but making out the germans in ww2 as the good guys.....is an insult to many people alive today, and to those 44 million people who were killed in that war.....

please get a hold of yourself for decency sake.....

First of all, please don't talk down to me! Second of all, for the one hundreth time - I'm not...that is not saying the Germans were the good guys in the war, I'm saying they were no worse than any of the other sides of the war.

Shredder66 · 22-07-2012 2:52pm

juan.kerr wrote: »

OP, you clearly have an agenda and are choosing which posts respond to to suit that agenda, ignoring anything that doesn't suit. Smell you later.

Of course I have an agenda, otherwise I wouldn't be here

Sorry but I'm getting a large volume of responses and can only reply to so many, especially with such slow broadband

Smell you later too!

Shredder66 · 22-07-2012 2:56pm

golden lane wrote: »

the irish never gave a shoite about the victims of german oppression....if they did....they would have helped the allies.....

the world is full of people and nations...that don't give a shoite....that is real life.....

Why on Earth would the Irish take up arms against the Germans, what did they ever do on us? We took up arms against our wonderful new best friends the British, who gave us centuries of oppression, war, rape and famine and who are still sokind that the insist on staying in six of our counties.

In my opinion we should have backed Germany.

the_syco · 22-07-2012 2:57pm

Germans experimented on people from the german concentration camps, and the english experimented on it's own soldiers.

I'm pretty sure the english tested Mustard Gas on it's own soldiers in the 1940's.

As the victors write history, you'd wonder what they left out?

Seanchai · 22-07-2012 2:58pm

golden lane wrote: »

the irish never gave a shoite about the victims of german oppression....if they did....they would have helped the allies.....

Yes, 16 years after the Irish Civil War over the British-imposed conditions in the 1921 Treaty, and while the sectarian herrenvolk British settler-colonial apartheid state was discriminating against the native Irish in every area of the Occupied Six Counties, you expect the same British state which entirely funded and internationally defended this ignominious subhuman situation to be helped by the Irish state?

PS: That you really believe that the British started WWII to "defend the victims of German oppression" doesn't bode well for your knowledge of history. Embarrassing, actually.

Wibbs · 22-07-2012 3:17pm

Shredder66 wrote: »

I have seen the ovens in Dachau

Point of order and contrary to popular belief, Dachau wasn't a mechanised extermination camp the way Auschwitz was(or more accurately a section of the Auschwitz complex was). Dachau had no gas chambers and the ovens had a small capacity, a capacity that was quickly overwhelmed as people died from overwork, starvation and diseases such as typhus, more than execution. It wasn't a "final solution" camp like others. It's Jewish population was about a third, the majority were Poles, Russians French among others. Belson was similar in nature, having no gas chambers.

Shredder66 wrote:

I know a fair bit about the Einsatzgruppen, I know they committed a number of mass executions in East but often when they turned up for work they had found that the locals had already began their work and they were instructed not to interfere.

Indeed. This is common in such things. New order comes in and scores are settled kinda thing. Treblinka 2 an extermination camp with no other purpose but to obliterate the Jewish people from history had as many non German guards(poles/Hungarians etc) who were considered the worst of those present. When the Soviets recaptured old territory and captured new different scores were settled.

Wibbs · 22-07-2012 3:18pm

the_syco wrote: »

Germans experimented on people from the german concentration camps, and the english experimented on it's own soldiers.

I'm pretty sure the english tested Mustard Gas on it's own soldiers in the 1940's.

As the victors write history, you'd wonder what they left out?

The Japanese set up an entire department to experiment on those under their rule. Medical and weapons experiments and for training of new doctors.

golden lane · 22-07-2012 3:23pm

Shredder66 wrote: »

First of all, please don't talk down to me! Second of all, for the one hundreth time - I'm not...that is not saying the Germans were the good guys in the war, I'm saying they were no worse than any of the other sides of the war.

please don't talk the germans up then.......yes they were the worst in ww2...

if you cannot see that....then i suggest you get reading, and learning...

Fratton Fred · 22-07-2012 3:59pm

Shredder66 wrote: »

Why on Earth would the Irish take up arms against the Germans, what did they ever do on us? We took up arms against our wonderful new best friends the British, who gave us centuries of oppression, war, rape and famine and who are still sokind that the insist on staying in six of our counties.

In my opinion we should have backed Germany.

Why should Ireland have backed Germany?

You are either

A) happy for all Irish Jews, homosexuals and those with disabilities to be carted off to concentration/death camps

an idiot
C) a troll.

My moneys on C.

Fratton Fred · 22-07-2012 4:03pm

the_syco wrote: »

Germans experimented on people from the german concentration camps, and the english experimented on it's own soldiers.

I'm pretty sure the english tested Mustard Gas on it's own soldiers in the 1940's.

As the victors write history, you'd wonder what they left out?

You think wrong then.

You are probably thinking of anthrax experiments carried out on the Scottish island of Gruinard in 1942.

golden lane · 22-07-2012 4:07pm

Seanchai wrote: »

Yes, 16 years after the Irish Civil War over the British-imposed conditions in the 1921 Treaty, and while the sectarian herrenvolk British settler-colonial apartheid state was discriminating against the native Irish in every area of the Occupied Six Counties, you expect the same British state which entirely funded and internationally defended this ignominious subhuman situation to be helped by the Irish state?

PS: That you really believe that the British started WWII to "defend the victims of German oppression" doesn't bode well for your knowledge of history. Embarrassing, actually.

you may not have noticed.......great britain was not the only country fighting the germans.......

your suggestion that i mentioned anything about who started ww2.....proves you really do live in your own supposed world....dream on dear fellow.....they are coming to get you soon.......

Fratton Fred · 22-07-2012 4:12pm

golden lane wrote: »

you may not have noticed.......great britain was not the only country fighting the germans.......

your suggestion that i mentioned anything about who started ww2.....proves you really do live in your own supposed world....dream on dear fellow.....they are coming to get you soon.......

You misunderstand.

Britain put Hitler in power and forced him to invade half of Europe, just so they could declare war.

A European war was the perfect cover under which they could bomb the North Strand. Everything else is incidental.

golden lane · 22-07-2012 4:21pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You misunderstand.

Britain put Hitler in power and forced him to invade half of Europe, just so they could declare war.

A European war was the perfect cover under which they could bomb the North Strand. Everything else is incidental.

right say's fred.....

sorry.......i nearly forgot about that, my mum and dad did mention it.....but as southsiders they missed it.......they did mention that houses collapsed in bride street and they thought it was the luftwaffe.....just missed my mam...

but as irish people we missed out on the wehrmacht benevolent society, and many ss street parties.....

indioblack · 22-07-2012 4:23pm

Shredder66 wrote: »

Is anyone else fed up being forced to listen to the stories about how awful the Germans were during WWII. Is anyone else sick of the hypocrisy that exists. How every war movie portrays the Germans as evil, sly and sadistic but the allies are always (at least more often than not) portrayed as the gallant heroes.

Not many know about the RAF bombing of Dresden, where our new best friends the British burned alive thousands of German civillians. The Katyn massacre where the Soviets butchered thousands of Polish officers and intellectuals or the aftermath of the Battle of Monte Cassino where Maroccan troops committed mass rape and mass murder on the civillian population but we have heard for the six millionth time about the Holocaust.

They say the victor writes the history book but that's not good enough. many awful things happed from both sides of that war and I wish to open a discussion on it. I will be happy to hear people's opinions.

Thank you

Firstly, you are not being forced to listen to these stories about the war - you choose to.
Most movies about the war are entertainment first and history second.
You'd be better off finding reputable and, hopefully, unbiased historical accounts of this period.
Your posts are most definitely not unbiased - your criticism is fundamentally aimed at the British - and as this thread has progressed
others have jumped in - at the moment we are up to Kenya, the South African War - Amritsar, the famine and bloody Sunday may well follow.
The Anglo-American bombing of Dresden has featured in other threads - and has been treated in a more mature and even-handed manner.
I've no objection to considering it again - I think the Allied bombing campaign is morally questionable - that is the ethics of it are open to question. But that is not to automatically assume it was an atrocity.
I believe that threads like these have little to do with a genuine desire to debate history.
I think that most of those who post their anger, ( usually against Britain's past), have no empathy whatsoever with people in 1940's Dresden - or anywhere else this thread may bring up.
It's more to do with a need to generate an artificial sense of outrage.
I've encountered this, sadly, with some of my own relatives in Ireland.
They pick a subject - usually connected with Britain's colonial and imperial past - and claim to be feeling shock and horror over the Bengal famine, or the famine in Ireland - it appears not to matter what the subject is, as long as the British are shown to behave badly.
The reality is that this is not a desire to understand the past - but to claim some kind of unwarranted moral superiority.
With regard to the bombing of Dresden, for example, it should be possible to carefully debate it in some detail - a disturbing part of Britains war against the Third Reich.
Or do you simply want to enjoy the feeling of outrage?

Memory Of 98 · 22-07-2012 4:32pm

All I hear is talk of camps and ovens, I hate to inform you all that the British actually pioneered what we understand as the concentration camp.

Tens of thousands of Boer woman and children exterminated in British concentration camps in South Africa, in an attempt to eradicate the Boer people.

Personally, I think both sides were as bad as each other, just the same side of a large imperialistic coin. But if you boys are going to have a debate, don't slate one side for doing the same thing that your heroes had been doing for decades, learn your history.

And when I say all sides, I mean all sides, throughout history, from French to Spanish.

golden lane · 22-07-2012 4:36pm

Memory Of 98 wrote: »

All I hear is talk of camps and ovens, I hate to inform you all that the British actually pioneered what we understand as the concentration camp.

Tens of thousands of Boer woman and children exterminated in British concentration camps in South Africa, in an attempt to eradicate the Boer people.

Personally, I think both sides were as bad as the other, just the same side of a large imperialistic coin. But if you boys are going to have a debate, don't slate one side for doing the same thing that people you hold up as heroes had been doing for decades, learn your history.

read, your history then.......

Fratton Fred · 22-07-2012 4:41pm

Memory Of 98 wrote: »

All I hear is talk of camps and ovens, I hate to inform you all that the British actually pioneered what we understand as the concentration camp.

Tens of thousands of Boer woman and children exterminated in British concentration camps in South Africa, in an attempt to eradicate the Boer people.

Personally, I think both sides were as bad as each other, just the same side of a large imperialistic coin. But if you boys are going to have a debate, don't slate one side for doing the same thing that your heroes had been doing for decades, learn your history.

And when I say all sides, I mean all sides, throughout history, from French to Spanish.

oh my god, they're all out today.

Memory Of 98 · 22-07-2012 5:05pm

golden lane wrote: »

read, your history then.......

I don't need to, I'm not even going to try advance one side over the other like you. They were all bad, just get the facts straight. There is no such thing as a lesser of two evils, evil is evil.

Humans are humans, and we will continue to kill each other for as long as we inhabit the earth.

jonniebgood1 · 22-07-2012 5:15pm

Shredder66 wrote: »

First of all, please don't talk down to me! Second of all, for the one hundreth time - I'm not...that is not saying the Germans were the good guys in the war, I'm saying they were no worse than any of the other sides of the war.

There is very little fact being used in this conversation. I have no problem with you as the OP trying to make a point but there is on this forum an onus on you to substantiate your opinion with fact. For example if you say that the Germans in WWII "were no worse than any of the other sides of the war" then you need to link to information that shows this. For example was their an allied version of the death camps?

If people continue to spout opinions without relating them to solid fact then the discussion will end. The forum has a charter which explains this in detail and also information of sources. This is a general warning for all parties. As already stated the OP should provide evidence of the allied war crime in WWII that he/she thinks is the equivalent of the death camps. The need for using fact applies to everybody by the way not just the OP.

MODERATOR

johngalway · 22-07-2012 6:20pm

Wibbs wrote: »

The Japanese set up an entire department to experiment on those under their rule. Medical and weapons experiments and for training of new doctors.

It takes a lot to turn my stomach, but I went off earlier in search of what you mentioned above. I found out about Unit 731, some of the information I read came as close as anything ever has.

Shredder66 · 23-07-2012 12:47pm

golden lane wrote: »

please don't talk the germans up then.......yes they were the worst in ww2...

if you cannot see that....then i suggest you get reading, and learning...

I can talk up whoever I chose to, I am offending no one and am entitled to have a different opinion than you sir, that what a democracy is. And believe me I do read, not just the mainstream books, I study both sides of everything and make my own mind up, not like you, I don't allow myself to be told what to believe

Shredder66 · 23-07-2012 12:50pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why should Ireland have backed Germany?

You are either

A) happy for all Irish Jews, homosexuals and those with disabilities to be carted off to concentration/death camps
an idiot
C) a troll.

My moneys on C.

Really, very clever. i feel so angry and silly now after you just showed me up there, you're to brainy for me with your excellent comments:rolleyes:

Shredder66 · 23-07-2012 12:53pm

indioblack wrote: »

Firstly, you are not being forced to listen to these stories about the war - you choose to.
Most movies about the war are entertainment first and history second.
You'd be better off finding reputable and, hopefully, unbiased historical accounts of this period.
Your posts are most definitely not unbiased - your criticism is fundamentally aimed at the British - and as this thread has progressed
others have jumped in - at the moment we are up to Kenya, the South African War - Amritsar, the famine and bloody Sunday may well follow.
The Anglo-American bombing of Dresden has featured in other threads - and has been treated in a more mature and even-handed manner.
I've no objection to considering it again - I think the Allied bombing campaign is morally questionable - that is the ethics of it are open to question. But that is not to automatically assume it was an atrocity.
I believe that threads like these have little to do with a genuine desire to debate history.
I think that most of those who post their anger, ( usually against Britain's past), have no empathy whatsoever with people in 1940's Dresden - or anywhere else this thread may bring up.
It's more to do with a need to generate an artificial sense of outrage.
I've encountered this, sadly, with some of my own relatives in Ireland.
They pick a subject - usually connected with Britain's colonial and imperial past - and claim to be feeling shock and horror over the Bengal famine, or the famine in Ireland - it appears not to matter what the subject is, as long as the British are shown to behave badly.
The reality is that this is not a desire to understand the past - but to claim some kind of unwarranted moral superiority.
With regard to the bombing of Dresden, for example, it should be possible to carefully debate it in some detail - a disturbing part of Britains war against the Third Reich.
Or do you simply want to enjoy the feeling of outrage?

Wow, that was long and boring. Yes, I was force fed ridiculous accounts of the war which is the official story and still is.
when I was a student. And if you dared point anything out they wouldn't debate it, they'd merely smear you by calling you a "Nazi sympathiser".
I am not being biased because as I've already said bad things happened on both sides (but the Germans were certainly the lesser evil in my opinion

Shredder66 · 23-07-2012 1:00pm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

There is very little fact being used in this conversation. I have no problem with you as the OP trying to make a point but there is on this forum an onus on you to substantiate your opinion with fact. For example if you say that the Germans in WWII "were no worse than any of the other sides of the war" then you need to link to information that shows this. For example was their an allied version of the death camps?

If people continue to spout opinions without relating them to solid fact then the discussion will end. The forum has a charter which explains this in detail and also information of sources. This is a general warning for all parties. As already stated the OP should provide evidence of the allied war crime in WWII that he/she thinks is the equivalent of the death camps. The need for using fact applies to everybody by the way not just the OP.

MODERATOR

Duely noted however I did give numerous examples, ie Dresden, the gulags, the mass rape and executions etc. I didn't elaborate because I'm trying to keep it short and sweet.

Shredder66 · 23-07-2012 1:02pm

golden lane wrote: »

read, your history then.......

Read your history then? Is that your arguement? Ready your history then? oh please:rolleyes:

golden lane · 23-07-2012 1:02pm

Shredder66 wrote: »

Wow, that was long and boring. Yes, I was force fed ridiculous accounts of the war which is the official story and still is.
when I was a student. And if you dared point anything out they wouldn't debate it, they'd merely smear you by calling you a "Nazi sympathiser".
I am not being biased because as I've already said bad things happened on both sides (but the Germans were certainly the lesser evil in my opinion

even the germans don't believe that...........

i don't get the force fed bit.........you believe what you want to believe, don't know where you went for your education....but you should have stayed at home......

Shredder66 · 23-07-2012 1:06pm

golden lane wrote: »

even the germans don't believe that...........

i don't get the force fed bit.........you believe what you want to believe, don't know where you went for your education....but you should have stayed at home......

Oh, I'm just going to ignore you from now on because you are not making any point and you're kind of wasting your time

golden lane · 23-07-2012 1:10pm

Shredder66 wrote: »

Oh, I'm just going to ignore you from now on because you are not making any point and you're kind of wasting your time

so, you spoke to german soldiers after the war......

R.Dub.Fusilier · 23-07-2012 1:24pm

No side in WW2 has clean hands in regard to war crimes it just that each have different levels of them. in the mind of ordinary joe soaps who may not have read much about WW2 the Third reich would come at the top of the list. The Japanese get forgotten for their treatment of Allied POWs and what they did in Singapore etc. IMO the Russian comitted more war crimes and are responsiable for millions more innocent deaths than the Germans.

it is believed that over 750,000 German POWs died of deliberate neglect after WW2

golden lane · 23-07-2012 1:30pm

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

No side in WW2 has clean hands in regard to war crimes it just that each have different levels of them. in the mind of ordinary joe soaps who may not have read much about WW2 the Third reich would come at the top of the list. The Japanese get forgotten for their treatment of Allied POWs and what they did in Singapore etc. IMO the Russian comitted more war crimes and are responsiable for millions more innocent deaths than the Germans.

it is believed that over 750,000 German POWs died of deliberate neglect after WW2

it is also believed that two million russian pow's died the same way....

i think the op is getting mixed up with stalin and hitler....overall stalin wins the killings game....but during ww2....hitler has the upper hand...

Allied atrocities during the Second World War >>MOD WARNING POST 80<<

Comments