Isn't it time we got our prisoners working?

positron · 19-07-2012 10:09AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Oh look - it's a blow-hard authoritarian with fascist fantasies... ..how entertaining.

I didn't realise that could be classified as 'authoritarian' and 'fascist'. But how else do you propose we save on the cost of running our prisons while continue to serve the community as a deterrent for criminals? I could be wrong in how I want to implement these things, but I do feel there is lack of justice here when the state doesn't have funds to offer better health service for children, while we blow 78k, more than twice the average industrial wage if I remember correctly, per prisoner per year?

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

Wow! Wouldnt subscribe to those ideas whatsoever. America has some the harshest prisons and harshest sentences in the western world and it has done nothing for them. Treating people like that will get a country no where.

I don't think America's issues can all be blamed on their jail system. Also I wasn't recommending following that model. Its not a comparable situation really.

Lyaiera wrote: »

I really like your list of awful places to go to: two continents, a democracy in the Middle East and a member of the EU.

I was generally pointing out areas that would be least pleasant to be in a jail I supposed - surely we all have heard of the horror stories from Asian jails, and Israel and Poland I suppose are the "european" options - Israel being big into their security and intelligence and enough man power for things like this, where as Poland being a cheaper EU option. I was only ranting anyway!

Andrew Flexing · 19-07-2012 10:13AM

Get a Chain Gang going......

laoch na mona · 19-07-2012 10:21AM

We should get prisoners to fix rural roads since the council couldn't be arsed to do their job
and every day they work could get them half a day off their sentence

SafeSurfer · 19-07-2012 10:47AM

Arbeit Macht Frei

Sleepy · 19-07-2012 10:52AM

I really like this idea of out-sourcing prisons.

19-07-2012 10:54AM

It's a reasonable idea depending on the context.

Making prisoners work against their will and without decent wages? No, that's slavery and there is no justification for it.

But I would be in favour of offering free education to prisoners. Like it not, there are people in prison because they actually did come from genuinely disadvantaged backgrounds and never really had a fighting chance to begin with.

positron wrote:

But how else do you propose we save on the cost of running our prisons while continue to serve the community as a deterrent for criminals?

How about we stop sending people to prison for trivial crimes like drug possession? Prison is a place for the like of rapists, murderers, corrupt politicians and criminal bankers. The prison system should not be admired, it should be seen as a vile but necessary evil whose sole purpose is to prevent a small few from harming the rest of us.

stovelid · 19-07-2012 11:00AM

Goddamn prisoners taking our jobs

JustAThought · 19-07-2012 11:02AM

.... The prison system should not be admired, it should be seen as a vile but necessary evil whose sole purpose is to prevent a small few from harming the rest of us.[/Quote]

I disagree. The majority of scangers arnt prosecuted , or get off relatively lightly.
How about instead if pandering to the prisoners the VICTIMS are considered.
Any pay for work they do goes to a charity of the victims choice; or to pay their medical costs; or counselling forthem; or to make their lives better in whatever way the victim sees fit ; this could be paying fir a stolen & burned out car; " replacing" smashed windows or vandalised property; or for home help fir tasks they cannot do due to injury or paying for someone to be there for them to support them after the rape/burglary/hut&run/knife attack.

It's not all about the criminal knackeres.

frag420 · 19-07-2012 11:11AM

mikom wrote: »

Don't be giving Micheal O'Leary ideas.

ConAir??

technu36 · 19-07-2012 11:14AM

Why not get them working on a farm growing their own produce, eating their own food, that would save on some of the 78,000

Lyaiera · 19-07-2012 11:16AM

technu36 wrote: »

Why not get them working on a farm growing their own produce, eating their own food, that would save on some of the 78,000

If Porridge is anything to go by they used to do that in Britain.

christmas2012 · 19-07-2012 11:44AM

I agree its time to get them working and why not,jobbridge and fas should be for them not for us,(real jobs intiaitives should be for us)it should be a free labour gig where they earn their keep and get payed nothing,the problem with prisons is they are not profitable at all,thats why we have no expansion to house all the prisoners we need to,and why there is overcrowding,we cut out that problem if prisons can be profitable..

meoklmrk91 · 19-07-2012 01:34PM

technu36 wrote: »

Why not get them working on a farm growing their own produce, eating their own food, that would save on some of the 78,000

There is horticulture included in the prison services work shops, so I assume at least 1 prison does something like this. Certainly and interesting idea.

Nodin · 19-07-2012 01:51PM

Pushtrak wrote: »

So, you don't have the prisoners making licence plates, or whatever other examples you might care to come up with. There would surely be something that the prisoners that could do that would avoid this issue, no?

No, logically.

Rawhead · 19-07-2012 01:59PM

technu36 wrote: »

Why not get them working on a farm growing their own produce, eating their own food, that would save on some of the 78,000

That's exactly what Shanganagh prison did. Micheal McDowell closed it along with 3 other prisons and now we have overcrowding again. The farms in Shanganagh actually supplied veg to the other prisons.
Mountjoy bakery supplies the Dublin prisons with bread.
Arbour Hill print shop supplies all the services stationary supplies.

There is no reason that work like litter removal on roads and cleaning of community areas couldn't be done by prison work parties. Anything more than that can lead to exploitation, that was the premise behind the Shawshank.

old_aussie · 19-07-2012 02:07PM

Prisoners are already learning skills in jail.

Like rape, robbery, assault, forgery and extortion.

All the skills to make sure they are successful in their next job.

They should be pressed into road gangs and hard labour jobs to earn their keep.

scdublin · 19-07-2012 02:19PM

Watched some of the shows, great idea! Most of the inmates would probably actually want to do something to give them experience and somewhat of a chance when they get back outside.

Rawhead · 19-07-2012 02:22PM

We could dump them all on an island on the other side of the world and see what happens.

I'd bet they turn in to a bunch of loud, obnoxious, crude, ignorant animals.

Nodin · 19-07-2012 03:40PM

Rawhead wrote: »

.....

There is no reason that work like litter removal on roads and cleaning of community areas couldn't be done by prison work parties. ......

Puts council workers out of a job....

CucaFace · 19-07-2012 03:46PM

I have it.

How about putting them in a giant hamster wheel thing where they have to run for a few hours a day which generates electricty which the Govt can then sell onto the national grid?

It would teach them a lesson which would make them change their ways for fear of going back to prision again and having to do this agiain for a few years, plus would add some value to their time in prison.

Everyone's a winner.

Plus it would great reality TV also.

laoch na mona · 19-07-2012 03:52PM

CucaFace wrote: »

I have it.

How about putting them in a giant hamster wheel thing where they have to run for a few hours a day which generates electricty which the Govt can then sell onto the national grid?

It would teach them a lesson which would make them change their ways for fear of going back to prision again and having to do this agiain for a few years, plus would add some value to their time in prison.

Everyone's a winner.

Plus it would great reality TV also.

Brazil do something like this it was in the news a while ago

BraziliaNZ · 19-07-2012 04:03PM

I'm sure a lot of them would probably like to do some kind of outdoors work, better than being stuck in a cell all day. It would be ridiculously hard to organise without the threat of people running etc, so it's not going to happen. Can't think of much they can make indoors either.
A lot of prisoners are there because society as failed them, a lot are opportunist criminals and a lot are just plain evil. I don't buy the hard and tough Texas government brutal regimes though, it just makes them hate society and authority even more, making them probably even more dangerous when they get out.

19-07-2012 04:23PM

JustAThought wrote: »

I disagree. The majority of scangers arnt prosecuted , or get off relatively lightly.

What is this I don't even...

Not all people in prison are scangers, and even if they are, not all of them are in prison for actually hurting anyone. There are non-violent crimes which receive prison sentences and which have resulted in an overcrowded prison system.

Also, a minority of what we'd call 'scangers' are guilty of violent crimes and not all violent criminals are scangers.

JustAThought wrote:

How about instead if pandering to the prisoners the VICTIMS are considered.

Did I say the victim shouldn't be considered? It's why violent criminals are sent to prison in the first place. The solution to the overcrowing is to stop sending people to prison for crimes which are non-violent or haven't caused damage to another's wellbeing or property.

JustAThought wrote:

Any pay for work they do goes to a charity of the victims choice; or to pay their medical costs; or counselling forthem; or to make their lives better in whatever way the victim sees fit ; this could be paying fir a stolen & burned out car; " replacing" smashed windows or vandalised property; or for home help fir tasks they cannot do due to injury or paying for someone to be there for them to support them after the rape/burglary/hut&run/knife attack.

That's really stupid. You're again assuming everyone in prison actually did something like that - and I'm not even taking into account anyone who was falsely imprisoned.

Slavery (and that's what you're advocating; don't deny it) is disgusting no matter what the circumstances. If they're in prison, they've already had their most important right (liberty) revoked and are no longer a threat to others, which is the whole point of imprisonment. The state has such power and authority that it can't be allowed to actively punish people, only protect us from those who would infringe on our individual rights.

If you're so concerned about violent criminals getting off too easily, then actually address that issue instead of trying to do some kind of crazy, roundabout patch-job on it by arguing for forced labour.

JustAThought wrote:

It's not all about the criminal knackeres.

Bzzzt, calling Guinness World Records: we have a contender for the most fallacies in a forum post.

Chuck Stone · 19-07-2012 05:01PM

positron wrote: »

But how else do you propose we save on the cost of running our prisons while continue to serve the community as a deterrent for criminals?

Stop locking people up for lesser crimes. Explore alternatives like house arrest (tagging), treatment for drug addicts instead of punishment, relax drug laws, no prison for fines (remove costs from wages or welfare).

Take that garlic scam guy. Why not fine him x4/5/6 what he tried to get away with instead of giving him an expensive prison term? Such an approach would might render the tackling of white collar crime self-financing (perhaps profitable?)

You know.. let's try humane stuff.

Jarren · 19-07-2012 05:07PM

Well , they could start learning how to dance for starters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnk7lh9M3o

1ZRed · 19-07-2012 05:13PM

Why don't we just stick them down a mine and get some use out of them? Sitting around in a cell is too good for a lot of them and is a drain on resources.

Throw in the odd banker for good measure of course. But you'd sooner catch a unicorn then one of those wiley cunts though!

positron · 19-07-2012 05:20PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Stop locking people up for lesser crimes. Explore alternatives like house arrest (tagging), treatment for drug addicts instead of punishment, relax drug laws, no prison for fines (remove costs from wages or welfare).

Take that garlic scam guy. Why not fine him x4/5/6 what he tried to get away with instead of giving him an expensive prison term? Such an approach would might render the tackling of white collar crime self-financing (perhaps profitable?)

You know.. let's try humane stuff.

I know that you know you are tweaking the argument in your favour by comparing an extreme punishment example by throwing a 'soft crime' type thing that's arguable as is even within the current setup.

I am all for trying the humane stuff - but at what cost? Where should you get the money to be humane with criminals? By cutting spending on childrens health? Or by increasing taxes on people who are already struggling?

To be honest, if someone is committing a crime against you, he/she is denying you of your human rights, so criminals come second in my list for 'people who deserve human rights'.

And since when is access to television a human right? If you compare the scale of niceties offered to Irish prisoners, they are probably doing better than about 75% of this globe's population you know?

twinQuins · 19-07-2012 05:37PM

JustAThought wrote: »

[...] How about instead if pandering to the prisoners the VICTIMS are considered.
Any pay for work they do goes to a charity of the victims choice; or to pay their medical costs; or counselling forthem; or to make their lives better in whatever way the victim sees fit ; this could be paying fir a stolen & burned out car; " replacing" smashed windows or vandalised property; or for home help fir tasks they cannot do due to injury or paying for someone to be there for them to support them after the rape/burglary/hut&run/knife attack [...]

You mean this?

Chuck Stone · 19-07-2012 05:54PM

positron wrote: »

I know that you know you are tweaking the argument in your favour by comparing an extreme punishment example by throwing a 'soft crime' type thing that's arguable as is even within the current setup.

You didn't specify which type of criminals in your 'prison ship' approach so you set the tone. For random violence, rape, sexual assault there is no other alternative to rapid incarceration to protect the public.

I am all for trying the humane stuff - but at what cost? Where should you get the money to be humane with criminals? By cutting spending on childrens health? Or by increasing taxes on people who are already struggling?

Keep people out of prison in the first place and the costs will not arise. Let's look towards Scandinavia rather then the US.

To be honest, if someone is committing a crime against you, he/she is denying you of your human rights, so criminals come second in my list for 'people who deserve human rights'.

Human rights were the by-product of WW2, are essentially apolitical, and are like a guideline constitution for humanity - probably one of the better things we've achieved as a species. Incarceration already deprives people of human, civil and political rights in case you didn't notice.

And since when is access to television a human right?

I wasn't aware that access to TV was enshrined as a human right. Anyhoo, TV is an excellent pacifier of people. Consider the millions of people watching soaps and reality TV who sit in their 'cells' every night by choice. TV serves a good function in prison - think about it.

If you compare the scale of niceties offered to Irish prisoners, they are probably doing better than about 75% of this globe's population you know?

And this is something to be ashamed of? We also live in one of the safest countries in the world. I'm confident that if you look at places where it's dangerous to live you will see appalling prison conditions and poor social support structures.

One last thing.. the only person who I've ever heard on these boards explain that bad conditions for prisoners is unfair on prison officers was himself a former prisoner - a little ironic isn't it?

OMARS_COMING_ · 19-07-2012 05:57PM

The prisoners should be allowed make little animals out of match sticks and then we could sell them at the markets

Isn't it time we got our prisoners working?

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