Sexual Orientation

Wiggles88 · 18-07-2012 4:50pm

PDN wrote: »

No, it would not be wrong at all. According to biblical teaching that is a sin, just as much as if two loving, consenting adults of opposite sexes (if not married to each other) have sexual intercourse.

Christians also believe it is a sin for people to pray to idols.

Jews and Muslims also think it is a sin to eat a bacon sandwich.

We may or may not agree with each religion's opinion of what constitutes a sin. However, I have the good manners to respect the beliefs of the Jew and Muslim and not to pick pointless arguments by trolling about bacon sandwiches in the Islam Forum.

If I want to become a Muslim or a Jew then that would involve adopting their rules. Since I have no desire to convert to either of those religions, it isn't really any of my business whether they have a bit of a thing against bacon.

Just so long as they don't interefere with my right to eat a bacon sandwich if i choose.

The difference of course is that bacon sandwiches have not been outlawed for all simply because of the muslims religion

PDN · 18-07-2012 4:51pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I have to say i'm glad i don't share your views, they seem extremely restrictive.
I assume it's down to the whole sex is for making babies school of thought?
If you or your wife were infertile say, no chance of ever procreating, would sex be off the cards altogether?

And, as the old saying goes, "Assume makes an ASS out of U and ME" (well, actually it just makes an ass of you!

).

Sexual intercourse is an incredibly wonderful gift of intimacy. And, since I had my vasectomy 19 years ago, sex has been very much on the cards. And, when compared to my rather lonely pre-Christian promiscuous lifestyle, I find that sexual intercourse is much more exciting and fulfilling in its God-given setting of a loving marriage.

PDN · 18-07-2012 4:54pm

Wiggles88 wrote: »

The difference of course is that bacon sandwiches have not been outlawed for all simply because of the muslims religion

In certain parts of the world they are. And, last time I looked, homosexual acts were not outlawed for all in Ireland.

As it is I support the legal right of consenting adults to roger each other if they wish, irrespective of gender or number of partners. I also support the right of people to eat bacon sandwiches if they wish. And I support the right of religions to abstain from pork or from certain sexual acts if that is their beliefs.

So no need for any fake outrage.

PDN · 18-07-2012 4:57pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

I'm not sure sexual preference for homosexuality has been demonstrated in animals. Obtaining sexual relief by unnatural means is a different matter. Humans in prison or in other deprived conditions may resort to homosexual behaviour - and quit it when heterosexual opportunities resume.

In any case, the animal kingdom is also fallen - not morally, but in operation. Predation was not the created norm. Neither was sexual perversion.

Female spiders sometimes eat their male partners after (or even during) sex. So that makes it 'natural' for people to do the same I guess?

wolfsbane · 18-07-2012 4:57pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

wolfsbane, do you believe every single word in the Bible is true?

Yes - in the normal sense of the term. It is true in everything it asserts.

For example, it asserts fornication is a sin. It is true that fornication is a sin.

But the Bible also records lies or mistaken ideas. It never asserts them, just records them. For example, Genesis 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

PickledLime · 18-07-2012 4:57pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, there is a difference - as I said. Both are wicked perversions of God's gift of sex, but one is by consent and the other by force or abusive seduction of those not capable of an adult choice.

Heterosexual sex also has its perversions - sex outside of marriage, in all its forms.

We may choose to engage in perverted sex or not. Choosing to do so does not make it right. It is wilful disobedience to our Creator.

Speak for yourself mate.

So myself and my girlfriend of 3 years with whom i'm involved in a completely loving, trusting and monogamous relationship are committing acts of perversion when we have sex? Do you actually say this to people who you know who are in a similar relationship?

You do know that sex (and homosexuality) has been around a lot longer than marriage and Christianity, right?

Wiggles88 · 18-07-2012 4:58pm

PDN wrote: »

In certain parts of the world they are. And, last time I looked, homosexual acts were not outlawed for all in Ireland.

As it is I support the legal right of consenting adults to roger each other if they wish, irrespective of gender or number of partners. I also support the right of people to eat bacon sandwiches if they wish. And I support the right of religions to abstain from pork or from certain sexual acts if that is their beliefs.

So no need for any fake outrage.

Yes they can do all that but are their union given the same rights under the law as you and your wife? The answer is no. Hence it is worthy of a topic of discussion.

wolfsbane · 18-07-2012 4:58pm

PDN wrote: »

Female spiders sometimes eat their male partners after (or even during) sex. So that makes it 'natural' for people to do the same I guess?

Excellent point!

sbsquarepants · 18-07-2012 4:59pm

PDN wrote: »

And, as the old saying goes, "Assume makes an ASS out of U and ME" (well, actually it just makes an ass of you! )..

:D

Just wondering where this stuff comes from!

PDN wrote: »

Sexual intercourse is an incredibly wonderful gift of intimacy. And, since I had my vasectomy 19 years ago, sex has been very much on the cards. And, when compared to my rather lonely pre-Christian promiscuous lifestyle, I find that sexual intercourse is much more exciting and fulfilling in its God-given setting of a loving marriage.

I had a very promiscuous lifestyle at one stage, i never found it lonely to be honest, seems a bit clíched. I don't in any way accept i need forgiveness for it though, or regret it even (bar a handfull of occasions!)
If sex is a gift, then it's a gift - you don't give someone a gift but then tell them not to use it, or place restrictions on it - that's just plain crazy do you not think? Here's a telly - no watching movies though. Here's a car - no left turns, they're dirty!
Can you honestly not see the logic holes in this story?

PDN · 18-07-2012 5:00pm

Wiggles88 wrote: »

Yes they can do all that but are their union given the same rights under the law as you and your wife? The answer is no. Hence it is worthy of a topic of discussion.

And that has what to do with Christianity?

I am fully supportive of the position that same-sex partners should have the same legal rights and protection as those enjoyed by my wife and I. So where's the problem?

Wiggles88 · 18-07-2012 5:04pm

PDN wrote: »

Wiggles88 wrote: »

Yes they can do all that but are their union given the same rights under the law as you and your wife? The answer is no. Hence it is worthy of a topic of discussion.

And that has what to do with Christianity?

I am fully supportive of the position that same-sex partners should have the same legal rights and protection as those enjoyed by my wife and I. So where's the problem?

Well great but you must realise that the main argument against the legalization of same sex marriage is one of religious reasons

wolfsbane · 18-07-2012 5:05pm

PickledLime wrote: »

Speak for yourself mate.

So myself and my girlfriend of 3 years with whom i'm involved in a completely loving, trusting and monogamous relationship are committing acts of perversion when we have sex? Do you actually say this to people who you know who are in a similar relationship?

You do know that sex (and homosexuality) has been around a lot longer than marriage and Christianity, right?

Yes, I tell those willing to listen to the Christian gospel whatever they need to do to please God.

As the Bible quote I have been lately signing with shows, you fall into the fornicators category ( assuming neither of you are married - in which case you would be among the adulterers):
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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

PDN · 18-07-2012 5:05pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

If sex is a gift, then it's a gift - you don't give someone a gift but then tell them not to use it, or place restrictions on it - that's just plain crazy do you not think?

I hope and pray that you are not a parent.

So you would give your son a car without telling him not to drive too fast?

The more valuable a gift is, the more we expect the recepient to treat it with care and respect.

Sexual intimacy is one of the most powerful and wonderful gifts that God has given. I think God had a real brainwave the day He invented sex. Also, if we are honest, sexuality when handled wrongly can cause more hurt and pain than almost any area of life. So it makes perfect sense that the giver would advise us to use the gift in the way that will produce the maximum fulfillment and the least harm.

doctoremma · 18-07-2012 5:06pm

PDN wrote: »

I do, however, think it is a sin to have sexual intercourse with certain people. In my case, for example, as a married man, it would be a sin to engage in sexual intercourse with any of the 7 billion people to whom I'm not married..

You say that like it's a problem, like you would do this if it weren't a sin. Effectively saying to a homosexual person "Look, I have restrictions too, deal with yours, I'll deal mine". That's terribly obtuse.

Of course, it's not the case that you struggle to cope with any restrictions of your sexuality (or the relationships arising from it). You have, I suspect, a mutually fulfilling and loving relationship with your wife. This would be, in theory, denied to a homosexual, who is supposed to live without ANY sexual intimacy.

PDN · 18-07-2012 5:07pm

Wiggles88 wrote: »

Well great but you must realise that the main argument against the legalization of same sex marriage is one of religious reasons

Nonsense. Same-sex marriage was hardly promoted as a great idea in the former Soviet Union, or today in China or North Korea.

wolfsbane · 18-07-2012 5:11pm

Ciaran0 wrote: »

Do you really believe that when God was creating us all, he said "Right I'll make one in every ten people gay. But I'll also make sexual acts between gay people a sin. That'll show them how much I love them!"

We are not immediately created by God at our conception - we are formed from Adam's seed. Adam's nature is what we are, not the original perfect creation.

We are born with a twisted nature, and grow up to sin in various ways. No one has to teach us to be selfish, to lie or steal, etc. It just comes naturally. 'Fallen-nature-ally'.

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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

qrrgprgua · 18-07-2012 5:12pm

Wolfsbane.. your translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9 is questionable

The bible does not say homosexuals won't inherit the kingdom of God, "Its men who sleep with men" In Latin who won't inherit the kingdom of God. Or St.Paul would have used the word ἀρσενοκοῖται

ἀρσενοκοῖται refers to that specific form of pederasty “which consisted of the enslaving of boys as youths for sexual purposes, and the use of these boys by adult males”

Just making a point on the text of your quoted scripture.

ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι βασιλείαν Θεοῦ οὐ κληρονομήσουσι; μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται οὔτε πλεονέκται οὔτε κλέπται οὔτε μέθυσοι, οὐ λοίδοροι, οὐχ ἅρπαγες βασιλείαν Θεοῦ οὐ κληρονομήσουσι.

Wiggles88 · 18-07-2012 5:14pm

PDN wrote: »

Wiggles88 wrote: »

Well great but you must realise that the main argument against the legalization of same sex marriage is one of religious reasons

Nonsense. Same-sex marriage was hardly promoted as a great idea in the former Soviet Union, or today in China or North Korea.

I was referring to the west and specifically Ireland, NK and communist views in general have mountains of problems themselves and it would be rather off topic to go into them. But are you honestly ignoring the fact that any attempt to legalize here are met with people quoting bible verses to defend their homophobic views

PickledLime · 18-07-2012 5:18pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, I tell those willing to listen to the Christian gospel whatever they need to do to please God.

As the Bible quote I have been lately signing with shows, you fall into the fornicators category ( assuming neither of you are married - in which case you would be among the adulterers)

I respect your opinion because everyone is entitled to their own, but unequivocally reject it as complete bunkum.

Seeing as i am not willing to listen to listen to Christian gospel (more to the point, i was brought up in a Christian household, decided to investigate it further and chose to renounce it) and view the Bible as a work of fiction, myself and my girlfriend are not among any adulterers.

efb · 18-07-2012 5:23pm

PDN wrote: »

No, it would not be wrong at all. According to biblical teaching that is a sin, just as much as if two loving, consenting adults of opposite sexes (if not married to each other) have sexual intercourse.

Christians also believe it is a sin for people to pray to idols.

Jews and Muslims also think it is a sin to eat a bacon sandwich.

We may or may not agree with each religion's opinion of what constitutes a sin. However, I have the good manners to respect the beliefs of the Jew and Muslim and not to pick pointless arguments by trolling about bacon sandwiches in the Islam Forum.

If I want to become a Muslim or a Jew then that would involve adopting their rules. Since I have no desire to convert to either of those religions, it isn't really any of my business whether they have a bit of a thing against bacon.

Just so long as they don't interefere with my right to eat a bacon sandwich if i choose.

Would this mean you would support a referendum for gay people to enter a civil marraige?

Ciaran0 · 18-07-2012 5:25pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

We are born with a twisted nature, and grow up to sin in various ways. No one has to teach us to be selfish, to lie or steal, etc. It just comes naturally. 'Fallen-nature-ally'.

Actually I think you'll find that lying and stealing and selfishness come from bad parenting. That's nurture. Being gay however is nature.

Ciaran0 · 18-07-2012 5:29pm

efb wrote: »

Would this mean you would support a referendum for gay people to enter a civil marraige?

I think, rather than use the word marriage, which many Christians feel is a tradition which belongs to their religion, we should just upgrade what we already have in civil partnerships to grant the same rights as a marriage would. That way, Christians could have their holy sacrament, in all its sanctity, and gay people could still have the same rights.

wolfsbane · 18-07-2012 5:31pm

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Wolfsbane.. your translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9 is questionable

The bible does not say homosexuals won't inherit the kingdom of God, "Its men who sleep with men" In Latin who won't inherit the kingdom of God. Or St.Paul would have used the word ἀρσενοκοῖται

Just making a point on the text of your quoted scripture.

arsenokoitēs
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G733&t=KJV

μαλακός
[URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?
Strongs=G3120&t=KJV"]http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3120&t=KJV[/URL]

Interesting phrase you used, men who sleep with men. It answers to the description of homosexuality in Romans 1:
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

wolfsbane · 18-07-2012 5:34pm

Ciaran0 wrote: »

Actually I think you'll find that lying and stealing and selfishness come from bad parenting. That's nurture. Being gay however is nature.

I've observed the best of parents finding their son/daughter lying, stealing, being selfish. Starts as soon as they can express themselves.

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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

wolfsbane · 18-07-2012 5:37pm

PickledLime wrote: »

I respect your opinion because everyone is entitled to their own, but unequivocally reject it as complete bunkum.

Seeing as i am not willing to listen to listen to Christian gospel (more to the point, i was brought up in a Christian household, decided to investigate it further and chose to renounce it) and view the Bible as a work of fiction, myself and my girlfriend are not among any adulterers.

Hmm. So believing there is nothing wrong with stealing or rape would mean you are not a thief or a rapist?

Refusing to recognise the court does not mean you are innocent of the crime.

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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Ciaran0 · 18-07-2012 5:41pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

I've observed the best of parents finding their son/daughter lying, stealing, being selfish. Starts as soon as they can express themselves.

And if you keep observing as the children grow up you'll see that with good parenting the lying, stealing and selfishness won't continue into adulthood.

wolfsbane · 18-07-2012 5:45pm

doctoremma wrote: »

Is your civil and religious liberty NOT enshrined in law? Which parts would you like to see formalised in law?

The governing elite seem determined to ban Christians and others from teaching that homosexuality is immoral. They seem set on indoctrinating our kids with the idea that it is moral.

I've no problem with them being told it is legal and that the homosexuals must have their liberty respected as much as the rest of us. But teaching homosexuality is moral and forbidding others to teach it is immoral is contrary to civil and religious liberty.

Same goes for fornication and adultery.

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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

doctoremma · 18-07-2012 5:46pm

Ciaran0 wrote: »

I think, rather than use the word marriage, which many Christians feel is a tradition which belongs to their religion, we should just upgrade what we already have in civil partnerships to grant the same rights as a marriage would. That way, Christians could have their holy sacrament, in all its sanctity, and gay people could still have the same rights.

I don't see any reason why the word 'marriage' belongs to Christianity?

And you're advocating a 'separate but equal' policy?

wolfsbane · 18-07-2012 5:50pm

Ciaran0 wrote: »

And if you keep observing as the children grow up you'll see that with good parenting the lying, stealing and selfishness won't continue into adulthood.

Indeed, such expressions will be usually be restrained or erased. All I was saying was that we are by nature morally twisted.

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1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

doctoremma · 18-07-2012 5:50pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

The governing elite seem determined to ban Christians and others from teaching that homosexuality is immoral. They seem set on indoctrinating our kids with the idea that it is moral.

I've no problem with them being told it is legal and that the homosexuals must have their liberty respected as much as the rest of us. But teaching homosexuality is moral and forbidding others to teach it is immoral is contrary to civil and religious liberty

I've never been taught in any context that homosexuality is either moral or immoral. Have you? I mean, have you been taught explicitly that homosexuality is moral?

Sexual Orientation

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