Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 MOD POST #1130

Leiva · 17-07-2012 01:44PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

So basically what some people are saying is that if Carroll leaves & does really well elsewhere, they still won't admit that maybe a player in his very early 20's just needs a bit of time to settle in?

What a crock of ****e. And this 'build a system around him' is utter bollox too. Did we have a system built specifically around him in the numerous excellent performances he put in last season or even a game like the City game the season before? No he didn't. He has the ability, that's beyond any doubt. He needs to improve his consistency-not at all unusual for a player his age who's at a new club.

Our lack of patience toward managers has now extended to young players too. Sweet. I look forward to us trying to flog Borini if he's doesn't hit the ground running.

I see your point but I don't think it's that extreme nor do I think we have become so fickle.

But looking at the bigger picture I just don't see Andy Carroll in a Brendan Rodgers style/formation .

That's not to say that Carroll should be totally forgot about or Rodgers is not considering him for certain type games, but if we could get the desired £20mil for him then it would be very silly (IMO) to not take the offer and buy players than dove tail into Rodgers future plans.

Dickerty · 17-07-2012 01:48PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

So basically what some people are saying is that if Carroll leaves & does really well elsewhere, they still won't admit that maybe a player in his very early 20's just needs a bit of time to settle in?

18 months is not a BIT of time. I actually really like him too, but right now, he is a valuable asset, and the money he could raise could buy some other players either better suited or not requiring the same level of patience (and time)

Mr Alan wrote: »

What a crock of ****e. And this 'build a system around him' is utter bollox too. Did we have a system built specifically around him in the numerous excellent performances he put in last season or even a game like the City game the season before? No he didn't. He has the ability, that's beyond any doubt. He needs to improve his consistency-not at all unusual for a player his age who's at a new club.

The fact that you have to say "A game like City" referring to a good performance 15 months ago says a lot. Yes, he had some very good showings last season. But so did Henderson, and Shelvey, and Downing, and Spearing...over a long enough period of time, everyone has some good games. The number of games where he showed his true potential with goals attached, I could count on one hand.

So when do we give him all the time to develop? Should we give up results to develop him, in lieu of a more complete performer? How many goals would Maxi have scored if he had Carroll's minutes last season as well as his own? Did he step up massively when Luis was suspended?

Francie Barrett · 17-07-2012 01:49PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

What a crock of ****e. And this 'build a system around him' is utter bollox too.

It's not really though.

If we're playing the Rodgers system, then Carroll needs to start as the point in the front 3 every time. He cannot switch positions, he is not known for quick passing or having the ability to distribute the ball quickly. He clearly does not fit the system and it's a massive gamble for Rodgers to have him in the first eleven given who he struggled to score last season.

K-9 · 17-07-2012 01:51PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Maybe not. But it's closer to what we need.

Or some decent money added to our transfer pot. The money would have to be extra to Dempsey and Borini and I can't imagine why it wouldn't. I would expect £20 Million minimum to be spent this Summer with sales on top, otherwise we can just forget about even attempting a challenge for fourth.

I am pie · 17-07-2012 01:54PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

So basically what some people are saying is that if Carroll leaves & does really well elsewhere, they still won't admit that maybe a player in his very early 20's just needs a bit of time to settle in?

What a crock of ****e. And this 'build a system around him' is utter bollox too. Did we have a system built specifically around him in the numerous excellent performances he put in last season or even a game like the City game the season before? No he didn't. He has the ability, that's beyond any doubt. He needs to improve his consistency-not at all unusual for a player his age who's at a new club.

Our lack of patience toward managers has now extended to young players too. Sweet. I look forward to us trying to flog Borini if he's doesn't hit the ground running.

This completely ignores the fact that Roger's team will not play a game which suits Andy Carroll. I completely disagree that he put in any excellent performances, anywhere outside of Newcastle. Not Liverpool and not for England. He has ruffled a few feathers by throwing his weight around but i have not seen him dominate a match for a few years.

He is young, but that is completely irrelevant. He is not suitable for the football we want to play. 'Plan B' talk is also ignoring the fact the Rogers does not relent and hoof balls at the big man if his game plan isn't working. Nor should he.

Successful teams don't buckle and throw the kitchen sink at some ill construed naive 'Plan B' , they adapt personnel make more intelligent tactical changes. Carroll affords us none of that.

It was a mistake signing him. Simple. Kenny made a mistake and it it's one we need to reverse now, quickly, rather than hoping he settles in. What actually does 'settle in' mean in the context of a big guy like Carroll who key attribute is hi aerial threat and physical presence? What has he got to remember how to do?

Simply not skillful and intelligent enough to be a liverpool no.9. He'll be better off somewhere else, and we'll be better to see the back of him.

BorneTobyWilde · 17-07-2012 01:56PM

All this talk of style formation is crap
We're not Real Madrid or Barcelona
Andy Carroll would be a valuable asset this season,

When he first entered team we hoofed it up to him non stop,
But all that changed near end of last season, We played football with him in team,
And he was more than capable of adapting

If newcastle buy him cheap , i can see them selling him in year for 40 million :P

Sir Gallagher · 17-07-2012 02:02PM

Are people suggesting Suarez Borini and Dempsey would be enough heading into next season? Fck that. Borini is a complete unknown quantity and people have him pegged as our starting striker, very optimistic and fanciful imo.

Turtyturd · 17-07-2012 02:02PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

So basically what some people are saying is that if Carroll leaves & does really well elsewhere, they still won't admit that maybe a player in his very early 20's just needs a bit of time to settle in?

What a crock of ****e. And this 'build a system around him' is utter bollox too. Did we have a system built specifically around him in the numerous excellent performances he put in last season or even a game like the City game the season before? No he didn't. He has the ability, that's beyond any doubt. He needs to improve his consistency-not at all unusual for a player his age who's at a new club.

Our lack of patience toward managers has now extended to young players too. Sweet. I look forward to us trying to flog Borini if he's doesn't hit the ground running.

Can you list these?

noodler · 17-07-2012 02:03PM

I too have reservations about possibly sacrificing an effective player for stylistic purposes.

All depends on the price tag for me - wouldn't accept 15m - would taxi him myself for 25m.

amiable · 17-07-2012 02:04PM

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Are people suggesting Suarez Borini and Dempsey would be enough heading into next season? Fck that. Borini is a complete unknown quantity and people have him pegged as our starting striker, very optimistic and fanciful imo.

I don't think he is unknown to Rodgers and that is the most important part.
I agree with you though that those 3 aren't enough and I would imagine there will be more on the way if Carroll is sold.

I am pie · 17-07-2012 02:06PM

noodler wrote: »

I too have reservations about possibly sacrificing an effective player for stylistic purposes.

All depends on the price tag for me - wouldn't accept 15m - would taxi him myself for 25m.

What is effective about his goals per games ratio, or his goals per minutes on the pitch ratio ? We simply aren't going to play a brand of football to his strengths, so why would we keep him? What benefit ?

Sir Gallagher · 17-07-2012 02:06PM

I am pie wrote: »

This completely ignores the fact that Roger's team will not play a game which suits Andy Carroll. I completely disagree that he put in any excellent performances, anywhere outside of Newcastle. Not Liverpool and not for England. He has ruffled a few feathers by throwing his weight around but i have not seen him dominate a match for a few years.

He is young, but that is completely irrelevant. He is not suitable for the football we want to play. 'Plan B' talk is also ignoring the fact the Rogers does not relent and hoof balls at the big man if his game plan isn't working. Nor should he.

Successful teams don't buckle and throw the kitchen sink at some ill construed naive 'Plan B' , they adapt personnel make more intelligent tactical changes. Carroll fords us none of that.

It was a mistake signing him. Simple. Kenny made a mistake and it it's one we need to reverse now, quickly, rather than hoping he settles in. What actually does 'settle in' mean in the context of a big guy like Carroll who key attribute is hi aerial threat and physical presence? What has he got to remember how to do?

Simply not skillful and intelligent enough to be a liverpool no.9. He'll be better off somewhere else, and we'll be better to see the back of him.

Since when did plan B automatically mean hoofball, this the premiership not pub football.

Phoenix Park · 17-07-2012 02:20PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

All this talk of style formation is crap
We're not Real Madrid or Barcelona
Andy Carroll would be a valuable asset this season,

When he first entered team we hoofed it up to him non stop,
But all that changed near end of last season, We played football with him in team,
And he was more than capable of adapting

If newcastle buy him cheap , i can see them selling him in year for 40 million :P

to us?

noodler · 17-07-2012 02:21PM

I am pie wrote: »

What is effective about his goals per games ratio, or his goals per minutes on the pitch ratio ? We simply aren't going to play a brand of football to his strengths, so why would we keep him? What benefit ?

Easy chief.

I said possibly - my argument (hope, wonderings, whatever) is predicated on Carroll consistently building on the glimpses he has shown us over the last 6 months.

My reasoning would be that we are going to have occasion to play to his strengths at numerous times throughout the season (when a team is too stuborn to break down or against a team who does the Rodgers' style far better) and that a fee of 15m for someone his age would be a little weak if we find out we don;t have the players required to play Rodgers' football to an effectively high level (i.e. a serious challenge ofr fourth).

Leiva · 17-07-2012 02:27PM

£35 million
- £20 million

= £15 million

£15 million/ 18 months = £833,333.333 per month.

WOW just WOW .

Knex* · 17-07-2012 02:28PM

Leiva wrote: »

£35 million
- £20 million
= £15 million

£15 million/ 18 months = £833,333.333 per month.

WOW just WOW .

Now add wages. :mad:

NukaCola · 17-07-2012 02:29PM

Leiva wrote: »

£35 million
- £20 million
= £15 million

£15 million/ 18 months = £833,333.333 per month.

WOW just WOW .

He played for free did he?

Beaten to it lol

noodler · 17-07-2012 02:30PM

Leiva wrote: »

£35 million
- £20 million
= £15 million

£15 million/ 18 months = £833,333.333 per month.

WOW just WOW .

Knex. wrote: »

Now add wages. :mad:

But don't pass go and don't collect 200.

Dr Galen · 17-07-2012 02:31PM

How long was Carrolls contract for when he signed? 3 years?

wonderfullife · 17-07-2012 02:32PM

The £35m figure has to be forgotten about and cast into a black hole. If they can get £15m back now it's better than £8m next January/summer if he flops again on the limited appearances he will get this coming season. Whether it's Comolli or Kenny at fault, at this stage it's a case of "if the £15m coming in can be used more effectively on other players, is it better than holding out for more to save face?" - i think it is.

Look at Robbie when he went back to Spurs, massive loss on the deal, he did well at Spurs on his return yet Liverpool still did better that season. That result applied to Carroll/Newcastle i'm sure everyone would take. Newcastle, Everton and Spurs are likely the closest rivals to Liverpool this year in the table.

amiable · 17-07-2012 02:32PM

Dr Galen wrote: »

How long was Carrolls contract for when he signed? 3 years?

5 and a half years I do believe.
He has 4 years left.

Leiva · 17-07-2012 02:33PM

Knex. wrote: »

Now add wages. :mad:

We all make the valid point about the Man City's of this world and how they trump us all with the wages they can offer and how a transfer fees can be deceiving, but a loss @ £833k a month would have paid for a top top player.

Jeez Mr Comolli and Mr Henry what were you thinking

Really puts things into perspective and I'm stretching it even suggesting he goes for £20 mil .

Kess73 · 17-07-2012 02:34PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

So basically what some people are saying is that if Carroll leaves & does really well elsewhere, they still won't admit that maybe a player in his very early 20's just needs a bit of time to settle in?

What a crock of ****e. And this 'build a system around him' is utter bollox too. Did we have a system built specifically around him in the numerous excellent performances he put in last season or even a game like the City game the season before? No he didn't. He has the ability, that's beyond any doubt. He needs to improve his consistency-not at all unusual for a player his age who's at a new club.

Our lack of patience toward managers has now extended to young players too. Sweet. I look forward to us trying to flog Borini if he's doesn't hit the ground running.

What a load of rubbish. Some players, even really good players, don't settle or perform at one club for one reason or another but do well elsewhere. A player doing well at one club does not mean he would have done the same at an old club nor does it mean he would do the same at his next club.

How long exactly should Carroll be able to get away with shyte form more often than he shows good form on a consistant basis? Another 12 months? 24 months?

Yes he might come good at some point in the future, but based on his lack of consistent form over the course of an entire season there is a good chance that he may not come good at Liverpool and all he would have done is maybe take the spot of a player who might have done better than him.

Knex* · 17-07-2012 02:36PM

amiable wrote: »

5 and a half years I do believe.
He has 4 years left.

Yeah, I remember Kenny constantly bleeting on about how "We signed Andy fir five years, nay 6 months" and so on.

Dont be at yourself · 17-07-2012 02:36PM

Ourselves and Arsenal now linked with this chap:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mirallas

I am pie · 17-07-2012 02:38PM

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Since when did plan B automatically mean hoofball, this the premiership not pub football.

Carroll = hoofball. Depressingly simple.

That's what we did last season when we used him in games where we couldn't break teams down, that's what England did when the used him in Euro 2012.

Why are people slapping lipstick on this particular pig? He has no intelligence in terms of making space for himself, making runs into space, is cumbersome with the ball at his feet and is simply unlike any good number 9 we've had. Carroll is Heskey for this decade.

Mr Alan · 17-07-2012 02:39PM

Kess, Carroll has performed well for the last few months. You're ignoring that & using his scoring stats to beat him with, while important, they are not the sole indicator of whether he's played well.

All this talk of Rodgers style etc, I can't ****ing wait for the season to start. People are gonna be scratching their heads when we don't turn into Barca overnight.

Washington Irving · 17-07-2012 02:40PM

wonderfullife wrote: »

Look at Robbie when he went back to Spurs, massive loss on the deal, he did well at Spurs on his return yet Liverpool still did better that season. That result applied to Carroll/Newcastle i'm sure everyone would take. Newcastle, Everton and Spurs are likely the closest rivals to Liverpool this year in the table.

We didn't make a massive loss on Keane. He was signed for £19 million and sold back to Spurs for £15m rising to £19m

klose · 17-07-2012 02:40PM

I assume rodgers has a presser soon in America and hopefully will shed some light on all this. Too many contrasting reports going about, he wants to go he dosent, he wouldnt mind a loan he dosent want to go atall, he wants to go home he wants to prove himself at lfc.
It's getting tedious enough now and am aware tis transfer window but this is still fairly annoying. The guy has been hounded from day 1 he came here by the ****ty media and feel for the guy, the amount of pressure he was under was insane for his age. I'd love to see him banging in the goals for us and shut the media up but if rodgers dosent fancy him well then that's that. Some clarification please

All aside can't wait to see the lads line out on Saturday, mon!

Turtyturd · 17-07-2012 02:43PM

whippedcream wrote: »

I assume rodgers has a presser soon in America and hopefully will shed some light on all this. Too many contrasting reports going about, he wants to go he dosent, he wouldnt mind a loan he dosent want to go atall, he wants to go home he wants to prove himself at lfc.
It's getting tedious enough now and am aware tis transfer window but this is still fairly annoying. The guy has been hounded from day 1 he came here by the ****ty media and feel for the guy, the amount of pressure he was under was insane for his age. I'd love to see him banging in the goals for us and shut the media up but if rodgers dosent fancy him well then that's that. Some clarification please

All aside can't wait to see the lads line out on Saturday, mon!

He had the chance to do that towards the end of last season.......and this happened.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 MOD POST #1130

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