Charities

Indmag · 04-07-2012 03:50PM

jaja321 wrote: »

It annoys me when people think charities are supposed to be run solely out of the goodness of people’s hearts. Professional staff are needed to run charities just like with any other type of organisation and if you want qualified and professional staff then they must be paid a satisfactory wage. I am not advocating for huge salaries, but people seem to think that running a charity should be done out of the goodness of one’s heart. If that’s the case, let’s go back to the ‘good old’ missionary days. Perhaps we should be more interested in standards, accountability, effectiveness, sustainability, and change.

Jaja, I've just picked up on this thread and I think you have hit the nail on the head there - accountability should be a key element of any charity (or any business) but in my experience there is very little (if any) policing of this area. I am familiar with one organisation where a CEO of a small charity promoted his gf & gave her a lovely salary increase to match his own (oh which he awarded himself!), annual increments & massive salaries to the other members of the mgmt team (made up of another couple who are in a relationship with each other)!! All of this, ladies & gents, paid for by you, the tax payer, as they are funded by the state - great job if you can get it! Salary for CEO €130k+ expenses + defined benefit pension & similar for other managers along with annual increments of approx €1200 p.a. - total staff of approx 70. Accountability - zilch!!

Nothingbetter2d · 04-07-2012 03:52PM

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Guidedogs can't use money.

they can if u train them.... they seem to be able to do a lot of other good stuff once trained

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 04:55PM

jaja321 wrote: »

Perhaps we should be more interested in standards, accountability, effectiveness, sustainability, and change.

So can you show me how Irish charities are held to any sort of standards? Truth is Irish charities operate as private businesses once they've obtained charitable tax status they are answerable to nobody. They don't have to publish their accounts (and largely don't) or show that their spending the money in any kind of a worthwhile way. I'm sure there's some honest charities doing a great job but by and large i think it's a license to print money. We have essentially no accountability and if im correct the legislation to provide some degree of public transparency has been put on hold.

That i know of the rest of the western world has some sort of system of public accountability in place but we don't. It's sounds incredible but Irish charities can do whatever the hell they want and if you look into it, it seems some clearly have the attitude of just lining their own pockets.

Having worked for one of the large Irish charities i wouldn't give a penny to charity in this country because it's so open to abuse. It's a shame because I think the longer this situation continues the less people will be inclined to give to charity, so those that genuinely want to do something or need help will be neglected or ignored.

squod · 11-07-2012 06:01PM

boo3000 wrote: »

Having worked for one of the large Irish charities i wouldn't give a penny to charity in this country because it's so open to abuse. It's a shame because I think the longer this situation continues the less people will be inclined to give to charity, so those that genuinely want to do something or need help will be neglected or ignored.

Ah now. I sometimes collect for a few charities and volunteer groups. They're not all bad. That burd who runs rehab is on 400k, shure, I'll not help or give to them. There's still good in the world. Don't give up.

castletownman · 11-07-2012 06:07PM

I have a almost maniacal disdain for those Concern "volunteers". It's almost gone to the stage where I reconnaissance the street ahead so I can cross the road just to avoid them. In fact I have a disdain for most charities. Just don't see how me donating a 1 or 2 euro a week/month is really going to make a huge difference to the third world etc.

Although if I ever got into serious financial security, I would become a patron of Crumlin Children's Hospital and Temple Street Hospital. I'd probably be a very philanthropic millionaire

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 06:14PM

I can see where your comin squod from but the way i look at it by giving money to any charity in Ireland your just supporting a system that allows the bad ones to get away with it (and i think they're getting away with quite a lot).

I know that's unfair on the genuine honest charities but i think that the sector won't be cleaned up until people say they won't accept the way things are.

I suppose I would give money to a charity that fully published their accounts and allowed independent inspection of their work, anyone know of an Irish charity like this?

Boombastic · 11-07-2012 06:21PM

boo3000 wrote: »

I can see where your comin squod from but the way i look at it by giving money to any charity in Ireland your just supporting a system that allows the bad ones to get away with it (and i think they're getting away with quite a lot).

I know that's unfair on the genuine honest charities but i think that the sector won't be cleaned up until people say they won't accept the way things are.

I suppose I would give money to a charity that fully published their accounts and allowed independent inspection of their work, anyone know of an Irish charity like this?

Most of the bigger ones have CEO's on massive salaries. They were quoted in a thread here a few weeks ago. Most €100,000+

meoklmrk91 · 11-07-2012 06:22PM

Used to give money to concern, then their chugging annoyed the **** out of me so I stopped. I gave money to the Red Cross after Haiti and the bastards won't stop spamming me since with emails and post.

My money goes to my local animal welfare charity, most of these are run by volunteers and they do fantastic work, I also like the fact that they don't just look for money, they will just as gladly accept food or other items and some of your time as a volunteeer all are equally accepted with the same gratitude.

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 06:31PM

At least 100,000+ boombastic i think because we only see what they tell us they're giving their CEO and we just have to take their word for it.

And this doesn't include all the other directors and senior managers in the large charities plus what they're getting in expenses, bonus, company cars etc. From what i've seen and heard what went on in FAS is nothing in comparison. Of course none of this can ever be proved because their all private companies answerable to nobody.

The way i look at it maybe 10% (a generous estimate) or less of what's given to charity in this country goes where it should. If we all stopped giving, that 10% would be stopped for the time it takes to straighten things out. After 100% would go where it should.

I consider what's happening in these big charities to be theft. Worse again, it's actually theft from often the most vulnerable. Of course in the eyes of the law this isn't the case so it just continues indefinately.

i71jskz5xu42pb · 11-07-2012 06:34PM

+1 for Kiva.org.
Probably not perfect either but pretty direct.

PM me if you want a link to a $25 free trial account.

validusername1 · 11-07-2012 06:38PM

Yeah one of the things I learned from doing Leaving Cert Geography was that large percentages of aid given is used to cover administrative costs and doesn't reach the people intended.. Organisations like Trocaire, for example, do this. Saw a bunch of statistics on it but I don't remember them, although I remember telling myself it's pretty useless donating to these charities if that's what happens. The point of learning about it was that Fair Trade practices are far more effective than giving aid, as Fair Trade practices let the poor people set up their own companies and it helps to regulate money in their communities and so develop them, so you are FAR better off buying Fair Trade products than donating money to organisations.

i71jskz5xu42pb · 11-07-2012 06:46PM

validusername1 wrote: »

Yeah one of the things I learned from doing Leaving Cert Geography was that large percentages of aid given is used to cover administrative costs and doesn't reach the people intended.. Organisations like Trocaire, for example, do this. Saw a bunch of statistics on it but I don't remember them.

Per Trocaire audited accounts, very easy to find.

88% Direct charitable expenditure
11% Fundraising and publicity
1% Governance costs

mattjack · 11-07-2012 06:47PM

validusername1 wrote: »

Yeah one of the things I learned from doing Leaving Cert Geography was that large percentages of aid given is used to cover administrative costs and doesn't reach the people intended.. Organisations like Trocaire, for example, do this. Saw a bunch of statistics on it but I don't remember them, although I remember telling myself it's pretty useless donating to these charities if that's what happens. The point of learning about it was that Fair Trade practices are far more effective than giving aid, as Fair Trade practices let the poor people set up their own companies and it helps to regulate money in their communities and so develop them, so you are FAR better off buying Fair Trade products than donating money to organisations.

What charities would be good to donate to

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 06:52PM

Lyric Easy Therapist wrote: »

Per Trocaire audited accounts, very easy to find.
88% Direct charitable expenditure

11% Fundraising and publicity

1% Governance costs

The term direct charitable expenditure is very very vague. I'd guess this includes salaries, bonuses, expenses etc. As these would be considered the expenditure in delivering the actual charity.

While governance costs could include legal expenditure and auditing costs.

I don't know anything much about trocaire but it sounds too vague and overly-simplified to be true.

dodderangler · 11-07-2012 06:55PM

A mate of mine was workin for some charity
Had brand new company car got bonus a month and 650 after tax for doing f all

i71jskz5xu42pb · 11-07-2012 06:59PM

boo3000 wrote: »

The term direct charitable expenditure is very very vague. I'd guess this includes salaries, bonuses, expenses etc. As these would be considered the expenditure in delivering the actual charity.

While governance costs could include legal expenditure and auditing costs.

I don't know anything much about trocaire but it sounds too vague and overly-simplified to be true.

It's not vague, it's pretty clearly defined

Direct charitable expenditure represents 87.7 per cent (2010: 86.6 per cent) of total expenditure. Direct
charitable expenditure includes transfers of funds overseas and the cost of goods, services and salaries
relating directly to overseas programmes which are paid from Ireland. It also includes direct expenditure on
communications and education programmes in Ireland aimed at creating a greater awareness of the causes of
world poverty and injustice and how change can be achieved and is analysed as follows

What I'm trying to say here is that this information is very freely available for anybody not too lazy to go look. The "I saw some stats that I don't remember" type comments get up my nose.

I'm not fighting Trocaire's corner here, Kiva would be my charity of choice, my point was badly made.

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 07:00PM

Yup as i expected, after a quick look at that Trocaire report:

"Direct charitable expenditure includes transfers of funds overseas and the cost of goods, services and salaries relating directly to overseas programmes which are paid from Ireland."

Im not having a go at Trocaire for all i know they do fine work. I just know that a lot of these big charities only publish a very general version of there accounts and as such are not accountable to the public.

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 07:05PM

Sorry Pman, I think we got our wires crossed there! I think we're actually kind of in agreement, the point im making is that the stats are so vague there not credible anyway.

mattjack · 11-07-2012 07:09PM

MQI

87% services
9% admin
4% fundraising

Scioch · 11-07-2012 07:13PM

I dont give anything to charity, I have better things to do with my money than give it to professional beggars.

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 07:17PM

mattjack wrote: »

MQI

87% services
9% admin
4% fundraising

I'd be surprised if that 87% for services didn't include salaries, expenses etc. The charity will say these are the costs of delivering the services. In the case of MCI this may well be genuinely true, i don't know them so i can't say. But because there not giving a full breakdown we don't know.

There's nothing to stop a charity saying we spend 87% on "services" and for this to include CEO's bonus which would be justified as part of the cost of delivering the service. Nobody checks charities in Ireland to see what's actually happening beyond what they decide to tell us.

mattjack · 11-07-2012 07:33PM

boo3000 wrote: »

I'd be surprised if that 87% for services didn't include salaries, expenses etc. The charity will say these are the costs of delivering the services. In the case of MCI this may well be genuinely true, i don't know them so i can't say. But because there not giving a full breakdown we don't know.

There's nothing to stop a charity saying we spend 87% on "services" and for this to include CEO's bonus which would be justified as part of the cost of delivering the service. Nobody checks charities in Ireland to see what's actually happening beyond what they decide to tell us.

There is a charities act now and you did say you've worked for one of the biggest in Ireland so its a bit of a surprise you saying you never heard of MQI ..

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 07:39PM

mattjack wrote: »

There is a charities act now and you did say you've worked for one of the biggest in Ireland so its a bit of a surprise you saying you never heard of MQI ..

Yup the same charities act that isn't being implemented because of a lack of funding and i had referred to this situation earlier. So as far as i know the situation remains the same in that we're depending on these charities to self-regulate and I for one have no faith whatsoever in this.

And i didn't say i never heard of MQI i said i don't know them. I can't comment on their honesty or the quality of service they deliver.
I think i've been quite fair in saying that i don't know anything specific about MQI or Troacaire. I also can't name the charity i did work for because i know full well i'd be sued if i did!

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 08:15PM

Here's a pretty good article on what's happening with the charity act:

http://www.boardmatchireland.ie/uncategorized/full-implementation-of-charities-act-will-not-happen-soon/

Of particular interest:

"Whilst enacted in February 2009, the majority of the provisions have not yet been implemented.
Of these provisions that have not come to fruition, the most noteworthy are: the call for the creation of a Charities Regulatory Authority, the creation of a Charities Register, revamping the law surrounding fundraising activity and the creation of a Charities Appeal Tribunal."

My understanding is that the charities regulatory authority was the group that would inspect charities and the charities register was where charities would have to publish accounts. Neither of these has happened so were left with a code of self-regulation that a lot of charities haven't even signed up for.

While I won't comment on specific organizations I have no faith in the majority of large charities in Ireland to self-regulate.

christmas2012 · 11-07-2012 08:20PM

Charities are running away with a huge amount of money,they get off some tax aswell,ive seen the way ''charity shops'' run for instance,they get out huge amounts of money,the clothes they get in stock they dont have to pay warehouse charges on,and they get pure profit by the time those clothes hit the floor,not to mention all the free labour ce workers they have on the floor!Its 100% profit!

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 08:34PM

I think a full boycott is the only way things will change in the foreseeable future. It doesn't seem that there is any incentive for the charity sector to change and they seem unwilling to do so anyway. From the same article, the minister discussing charities signing up to a voluntary code of practise:

"Whilst I would like to publicly acknowledge the fundraising charities that have signed up, the overall level of take-up thus far does not demonstrate the genuine hunger for regulation that representatives of the sector have always asserted exists.”

mattjack · 11-07-2012 09:22PM

christmas2012 wrote: »

Charities are running away with a huge amount of money,they get off some tax aswell,ive seen the way ''charity shops'' run for instance,they get out huge amounts of money,the clothes they get in stock they dont have to pay warehouse charges on,and they get pure profit by the time those clothes hit the floor,not to mention all the free labour ce workers they have on the floor!Its 100% profit!

Just for once , can you stop bringing CE/jobbridge/TUS into a thread.
Charities dont pay tax .. we know that.No charity is there to make a profit and where do they run with huge amounts of money ? What on earth are you talking about with warehouse charges
The charity I work for buys its own equipment,pays its few full time staff, offers paid sessional work to its CE and volunteers , has no company cars , doesn't feed us , the expenses it pays are staff travel costs ..

mikemac1 · 11-07-2012 09:23PM

Donate to Crumlin Childrens Hospital

I already did through my paypacket, James Reilly has over 13 billion to spend

Sorry

Charities are for specific areas the State can't or doesn't manage, not hospitals

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 09:44PM

mattjack wrote: »

JNo charity is there to make a profit and where do they run with huge amounts of money ?

I think the problem is you can't prove this. There's is no accountability amongst Irish charities. At present there is nothing to stop executives in Irish charities paying themselves massive salaries, bonuses, expenses etc. They don't have to run anywhere with the money because it's all technically legal even though it is morally disgusting.

FAS wasn't there to make a profit either and look what happened there.

Nobodies saying that the charity you work for isn't 100% above board the problem is the lack of transparency and accountability means the system is wide open for abuse.

foxinsox · 11-07-2012 09:47PM

christmas2012 wrote: »

Charities are running away with a huge amount of money,they get off some tax aswell,ive seen the way ''charity shops'' run for instance,they get out huge amounts of money,the clothes they get in stock they dont have to pay warehouse charges on,and they get pure profit by the time those clothes hit the floor,not to mention all the free labour ce workers they have on the floor!Its 100% profit!

Have you seen all these charities accounts ?

Have you seen the way all charity shops are run ?

Pure profit ? How much is that ?

You should really state some examples or facts to back up such ridiculous generalisations in your post.

Charities

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