Comparison of Santa Claus with God

MisterEpicurus · 10-07-2012 07:49PM #1

The comparison between Santa and god is often made and usually swiftly dismissed by the ardent theist. The theist may respond by saying things like;

- Oh, but..but...we grow out of believing in Santa Clause, we continue on believing in god

- There is no evidence for the existence of Santa Claus whereas there is at least some evidence for the existence of god

This doesn't exhaust the excuses *cough*, reasons that theists have up their skirt but it's certainly 2 of the most common. I think we can safely dismiss the second excuse because if there were evidence for the existence of god then there would be no debate in the first place.

As for the first excuse, well...Children grow out of Santa Claus when they discover, maybe through parents, that Santa Claus was made up. However, this is not told to children regarding god. They don't tell the children god doesn't exist. What would happen if children were collectively told, like Santa Claus, that god didn't exist? Would the levels of believers suddenly drop, I'd think so.

If adults don't drop the idea of god then of course children won't say or even begin to question whether it's silly or not. But when it comes to Santa, the adult is perfectly able to dismiss Santa as silly. The thing is, these theists were once children and so if they were around an environment when everybody dismissed god equally as they do Santa, then would we equally have no theists?

Thus, the only difference between this analogy is that children continue to believe in god whereas their parents dismiss Santa early on.

So this comparison is more than valid and not as trivial as the theist makes it out to be.

Indeed, god and santa have an awful lot in common;

- If you sin, you'll be punished.
- If you behave well, you'll get massive rewards.
- You're being watched all year around and everything you think is taken into account.
- When all this information is collated, final judgement begins to determine whether you should be rewarded or punished.

Isn't god just the adult version of Santa?

Anyway, I just thought I'd throw that one out there and see what folks think about it.

Pushtrak · 10-07-2012 07:54PM

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

This doesn't exhaust the excuses *cough*, reasons that theists have up their skirt but it's certainly 2 of the most common. I think we can safely dismiss the second excuse because if there were evidence for the existence of god then there would be no debate in the first place.

Don't think it is that simple. The first cause argument and pascal's wager would surely keep many adherents to the faith.

MisterEpicurus · 10-07-2012 08:00PM

Pushtrak wrote: »

Don't think it is that simple. The first cause argument and pascal's wager would surely keep many adherents to the faith.

True - but the first cause argument and Pascal's wager are not evidential at all. I'm saying that there would be no debate if there was actual tangible evidence.

Sindri · 10-07-2012 08:20PM

We know Santa isn't real. We know it's a huge parental conspiracy. We are told so and we observe it to be so. More importantly our parents know and they participate in the full knowledge that he is not real. They (may) participate in religion even though they do not know. The main difference is that it is accepted that Santa is not real whereas it is not accepted that God is not real.

We cannot say the same about God. We probably should but we can't as the knowledge of his existence (or lack of it) is not actually known. Essentially, your argument would work if it were applied to a world where it was known that God was not real yet we were told he was and we were all children. The conspiracy of Santa was entered into on the full knowledge that he did not exist. The idea of God was not.

MisterEpicurus · 10-07-2012 08:33PM

Sindri wrote: »

We know Santa isn't real. We know it's a huge parental conspiracy. We are told so and we observe it to be so. More importantly our parents know and they participate in the full knowledge that he is not real. They (may) participate in religion even though they do not know. The main difference is that it is accepted that Santa is not real whereas it is not accepted that God is not real.

We cannot say the same about God. We probably should but we can't as the knowledge of his existence (or lack of it) is not actually known. Essentially, your argument would work if it were applied to a world where it was known that God was not real yet we were told he was and we were all children. The conspiracy of Santa was entered into on the full knowledge that he did not exist. The idea of God was not.

I'm fully aware of this but my point was based on the fact that the analogy is essentially the same. Children adopt the views of their parents as the parents did when they were children. It's a vicious cycle which appears to add legitimacy just because it has lasted so long. Even though we can't trace the god hypothesis back, the analogy still holds true. This isn't an argument against the existence of god, just an analogy to show the equal stupidity of an adult believing in either as they grow older.

wonderfulname · 10-07-2012 08:35PM

It is interesting how belief in one persists long after the other dies, I know of no one who had to be told by a parent Santa wasn't real, either they worked it out themselves or heard it on the playground, I suppose it illustrates the difference total immersion makes, 11 months of the year not a word is uttered of Santa, whereas religion is a daily intrusion on life for most children.

It's especially interesting when religion has no easily identifiable focus, at least Santa could be seen on the den and the 6 1 news, but again perhaps that is a strength, you can't pull off god's beard...

magicbastarder · 10-07-2012 08:38PM

i was led to believe when i was younger that hulk hogan and andre the giant's antics were real. does this mean that we can equate hulk hogan with god?

MisterEpicurus · 10-07-2012 08:53PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was led to believe when i was younger that hulk hogan and andre the giant's antics were real. does this mean that we can equate hulk hogan with god?

You're probably being facetious with that comment or you haven't got the main point of my first post.

nuriel_roubini · 10-07-2012 09:16PM

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

The comparison between Santa and god is often made and usually swiftly dismissed by the ardent theist. The theist may respond by saying things like;

- Oh, but..but...we grow out of believing in Santa Clause, we continue on believing in god

- There is no evidence for the existence of Santa Claus whereas there is at least some evidence for the existence of god

This doesn't exhaust the excuses *cough*, reasons that theists have up their skirt but it's certainly 2 of the most common. I think we can safely dismiss the second excuse because if there were evidence for the existence of god then there would be no debate in the first place.

As for the first excuse, well...Children grow out of Santa Claus when they discover, maybe through parents, that Santa Claus was made up. However, this is not told to children regarding god. They don't tell the children god doesn't exist. What would happen if children were collectively told, like Santa Claus, that god didn't exist? Would the levels of believers suddenly drop, I'd think so.

If adults don't drop the idea of god then of course children won't say or even begin to question whether it's silly or not. But when it comes to Santa, the adult is perfectly able to dismiss Santa as silly. The thing is, these theists were once children and so if they were around an environment when everybody dismissed god equally as they do Santa, then would we equally have no theists?

Thus, the only difference between this analogy is that children continue to believe in god whereas their parents dismiss Santa early on.

So this comparison is more than valid and not as trivial as the theist makes it out to be.

Indeed, god and santa have an awful lot in common;

- If you sin, you'll be punished.
- If you behave well, you'll get massive rewards.
- You're being watched all year around and everything you think is taken into account.
- When all this information is collated, final judgement begins to determine whether you should be rewarded or punished.

Isn't god just the adult version of Santa?

Anyway, I just thought I'd throw that one out there and see what folks think about it.

the reason its easier to convince people that god exists than santa is because santa is all nice , he doesnt threaten to grill people

Extinction · 10-07-2012 09:35PM

I think its probably the huge fear factor that surrounds the gods. As a child you understand that if your not good you won't get toys from santa, you will come to the point where you don't want the toys anyway so you are told that santa doesn't exist, santa is a nice idea for a number of years but the rewards run out. The fear of going to hell etc make it very difficult to mature enough to out grow belief in god, it is a lot easier to mature enough to out grow belief in santa as there is no threat of eternal damnation for not believing in the guy in the red suit.

joseph brand · 10-07-2012 09:46PM

Sindri wrote: »

We know Santa isn't real. We know it's a huge parental conspiracy. We are told so and we observe it to be so. More importantly our parents know and they participate in the full knowledge that he is not real. They (may) participate in religion even though they do not know. The main difference is that it is accepted that Santa is not real whereas it is not accepted that God is not real.

We cannot say the same about God. We probably should but we can't as the knowledge of his existence (or lack of it) is not actually known. Essentially, your argument would work if it were applied to a world where it was known that God was not real yet we were told he was and we were all children. The conspiracy of Santa was entered into on the full knowledge that he did not exist. The idea of God was not.

Parents tell their children a little white lie. Probably my favourite lie.

Then we have strangers (clergy) telling people lies which affect their lives. Controlling them.
Take Joseph Smith for example. He was a madman,a shyster, full of 'tall tales'. But some people believed him! You can take this basic idea and apply it to all other religions.

It would be hilarious if the Vatican had to admit that it was all boll*x. Would catholics just become protestants or would they go into a deep state of shock and depression. (time and money wasted)

Jimoslimos · 10-07-2012 10:20PM

The analogy I like to draw isn't between Santa and God, but more specifically Santa and Jesus.

Historical evidence points to the probability that both existed at one time, St. Nicholas and Jesus of Nazareth.

However they've both developed a mythology surrounding their actual deeds. Miracles, rising from the dead, delivering presents to every good child on Earth,etc

We reject one as obvious childish fantasy, but the other...

cavedave · 10-07-2012 10:33PM

God is not buried in Kilkenny

MagicMarker · 10-07-2012 10:34PM

The truth is that Santa is more believable than the god portrayed in the Bible.

philologos · 10-07-2012 11:16PM

If there wasn't a heck of a lot more historical and manuscript evidence to back up the existence and crucifixion of Jesus, and the history of the early church as described in the New Testament, I might agree with you. The New Testament is the most authentic ancient source in existence today.

It's in the light of this that I can be convinced that my views hold a lot more weight in reality than belief in Santa. I'd encourage you to research into the matter.

Extinction · 10-07-2012 11:39PM

philologos wrote: »

If there wasn't a heck of a lot more historical and manuscript evidence to back up the existence and crucifixion of Jesus, and the history of the early church as described in the New Testament, I might agree with you. The New Testament is the most authentic ancient source in existence today.

It's in the light of this that I can be convinced that my views hold a lot more weight in reality than belief in Santa. I'd encourage you to research into the matter.

Ok so there was a Jesus and he was crusified, I'd imagine there were thousands of them and just like santa far fetched stories were made up and written. The bible is no more proof of god than the big book of christmas stories is proof of santa and the miracle of the flying reindeers.

MisterEpicurus · 10-07-2012 11:50PM

Extinction wrote: »

I think its probably the huge fear factor that surrounds the gods. As a child you understand that if your not good you won't get toys from santa, you will come to the point where you don't want the toys anyway so you are told that santa doesn't exist, santa is a nice idea for a number of years but the rewards run out. The fear of going to hell etc make it very difficult to mature enough to out grow belief in god, it is a lot easier to mature enough to out grow belief in santa as there is no threat of eternal damnation for not believing in the guy in the red suit.

Good post. It could also be inverted to suggest that a child only has the capacity to know its reward is, say, toys. As an adult, the reward becomes too great to let go of. And in both cases, both the adult and the child find it difficult to let go the concept Santa/God doesn't really exist!

Sarky · 11-07-2012 12:11AM

philologos wrote: »

If there wasn't a heck of a lot more historical and manuscript evidence to back up the existence and crucifixion of Jesus, and the history of the early church as described in the New Testament, I might agree with you. The New Testament is the most authentic ancient source in existence today.
.

So the lie hasn't changed much. Big whoop.

Extinction · 11-07-2012 12:11AM

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

Good post. It could also be inverted to suggest that a child only has the capacity to know its reward is, say, toys. As an adult, the reward becomes too great to let go of. And in both cases, both the adult and the child find it difficult to let go the concept Santa/God doesn't really exist!

Or to put a negative spin on it like religon seems to do. How many children would stop believing in santa if they were told that by denying the existance of santa they were condeming themselves to eternal suffering? If that was the case I'm sure there would be billions of adults who still believe in Santa. Fear seems to be the key for gods people, keep the masses believing by using threats of a violent eternity if they don't follow the rules.

MisterEpicurus · 11-07-2012 12:16AM

Extinction wrote: »

Or to put a negative spin on it like religon seems to do. How many children would stop believing in santa if they were told that by denying the existance of santa they were condeming themselves to eternal suffering? If that was the case I'm sure there would be billions of adults who still believe in Santa. Fear seems to be the key for gods people, keep the masses believing by using threats of a violent eternity if they don't follow the rules.

I think about 15...

I know many people say this but is it really true? They seem to use hell as a threat for non-believers rather than a reason for themselves to believe.

Extinction · 11-07-2012 12:18AM

Sarky wrote: »

So the lie hasn't changed much. Big whoop.

The lie has never changed, the bible still proves that the bible is 100% correct and what greater proof could you have that the bible is right than the truth written in the bible its self.

MisterEpicurus · 11-07-2012 12:20AM

Extinction wrote: »

The lie has never changed, the bible still proves that the bible is 100% correct and what greater proof could you have that the bible is right than the truth written in the bible its self.

I actually wish people would stop calling it 'The Bible'.

People should call it what it really is, which is a 'Collection of Contradictory Documents'. I know it doesn't have the same catch as 'The Bible' but it's more accurate IMHO.

Extinction · 11-07-2012 12:32AM

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

I think about 15...

I know many people say this but is it really true? They seem to use hell as a threat for non-believers rather than a reason for themselves to believe.

I suppose it ring fences the believers, if you are a believer who begins to doubt you are more likely to work hard on your faith because you are afraid that even these doubts are a reason to end up in hell. The thought of stepping outside the fence to freedom is too frightening to even admit that you are having these thoughts and you call them something such as a crisis of faith and seek guidence not from someone on the outside but from someone inside the fence. I struggled for years with fear of a 'loving' god before I realised the only thing stopping me from actually admitting to myself that I didn't believe was the fear of the wrath of god's mercy. The key was admitting to myself that I was being incredibly ridiculous for a grown man. That in a nutshell is my experience of the roman catholic church I was brought up in.

Jimoslimos · 11-07-2012 01:26AM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

The thing is though, evidence of the existance of jesus =/= proof, or even evidence of the existance of God.

Indeed, archaeological remains 1000 years from now may unearth an ancient train station, near Kings Cross. Historical documents may link this site to a boy called Harry Potter.

Doesn't prove he existed though or if he did, that he actually had magical powers.

Improbable · 11-07-2012 01:32AM

philologos wrote: »

If there wasn't a heck of a lot more historical and manuscript evidence to back up the existence and crucifixion of Jesus, and the history of the early church as described in the New Testament, I might agree with you. The New Testament is the most authentic ancient source in existence today.

It's in the light of this that I can be convinced that my views hold a lot more weight in reality than belief in Santa. I'd encourage you to research into the matter.

Can you define what you mean by authentic ancient source in this context?

nozzferrahhtoo · 11-07-2012 07:52AM

philologos wrote: »

If there wasn't a heck of a lot more historical and manuscript evidence to back up the existence and crucifixion of Jesus, and the history of the early church as described in the New Testament, I might agree with you. The New Testament is the most authentic ancient source in existence today.

The issue here, as you well know, is that your "historical and manuscript evidence" to back up the bible.... IS the bible. It has long been clear that most of the philosophy course you claim to have taken went over your head but even you must be able to identify the problem with this.

There is probably better evidence for the existence of Santa than Jesus.... or at least that is to say for the St. Nicholas that Santa is often connected to.

Mintoz · 11-07-2012 10:54AM

The point of the Santa Claus story is to teach children to value truth. To teach them, not to believe in something because it makes them happy, or even be 'good', but to believe it because it's true.

Pushtrak · 11-07-2012 10:58AM

Mintoz wrote: »

The point of the Santa Claus story is to teach children to value truth. To teach them, not to believe in something because it makes them happy, or even be 'good', but to believe it because it's true.

Would be awesome if that were true.

Delirium · 11-07-2012 11:06AM

Mintoz wrote: »

The point of the Santa Claus story is to teach children to value truth. To teach them, not to believe in something because it makes them happy, or even be 'good', but to believe it because it's true.

So you never had your parents say, "be a good boy/girl or there'll be no presents from Santa" when you were a kid?

If the story is to teach kids to value truth, it must be one of the most ironic ways to teach that to kids.

Mousewar · 11-07-2012 11:42AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The issue here, as you well know, is that your "historical and manuscript evidence" to back up the bible.... IS the bible. It has long been clear that most of the philosophy course you claim to have taken went over your head but even you must be able to identify the problem with this.

There is probably better evidence for the existence of Santa than Jesus.... or at least that is to say for the St. Nicholas that Santa is often connected to.

Aside from the fact that the New Testament is a perfectly valid historical document (i.e. it's biased but so is everything written at that time and indeed most times), the historical figure of Jesus is referred to also in the writings of the Jewish historian, Josephus.

Jesus existed and was crucified. We know this in the same way we know of the existence of other historical figures from the period.

Gumbi · 11-07-2012 11:47AM

Mousewar wrote: »

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The issue here, as you well know, is that your "historical and manuscript evidence" to back up the bible.... IS the bible. It has long been clear that most of the philosophy course you claim to have taken went over your head but even you must be able to identify the problem with this.

There is probably better evidence for the existence of Santa than Jesus.... or at least that is to say for the St. Nicholas that Santa is often connected to.

Aside from the fact that the New Testament is a perfectly valid historical document (i.e. it's biased but so is everything written at that time and indeed most times), the historical figure of Jesus is referred to also in the writings of the Jewish historian, Josephus.

Jesus existed and was crucified. We know this in the same way we know of the existence of other historical figures from the period.

Not "perfectly valid", though I generally agree, but it shouldn't be taken as fact. We compare independant historical sources in order to get a clearer, more accurate picture of what occurred. This is not the case with the Bible.

Herodotus reported a Persian army of almost 3 million at Thermopylae. This is logistically impossible, and so we dismiss it. We do, however, accept that based on his and other writings, that the battle occurred.

Comparison of Santa Claus with God

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