Judge appalled at video of Gardai

RustyNut · 10-07-2012 06:25PM

MagicSean wrote: »

If you are arrested in a private place you have to be brought into a public place afterwards. You are not there by choice.

A coat over someone's head, job done. No need to take away more rights that save people from abuse by those more powerful than themselves.

twowheelsonly · 10-07-2012 06:33PM

BoardsMember wrote: »

There's a fairly widely held view in the courts, by solicitors & barristers, that it is not unknown for some Gardaí barristers to say whatever it takes to help get a conviction. a soft ride from the Judge. This view is held by people who represent are familiar with those accused, and those defending all sorts of cases. Obviously there are loads of good Gardai, presumably more than bad ones.

FYP :rolleyes:

Dangerous Man wrote: »

Guards in perverting the course of justice / assault / intimidation / collusion / cowardice shocker. I don't know how many more instances of this kind of thing we need to see before we realize how terrible our police force is...

Are you for real?? Ever traveled abroad? Start a fight outside a Turkish Bar and come back and tell us how bad our coppers are.

IMO, the Cops here went a little over the top on the night and way over the top when they went to court.

According to the Defendants Barrister there was 30 seconds between checking the ID and the Garda dragging the defendant to the car. What was said in those 30 seconds?? Enough to wind up the copper obviously and probably enough to be considered a breach of the peace.
No doubt the Bouncers had pointed out the troublemakers to the Gardai, otherwise why ask him for ID?
Like others, I'd love to see the footage prior to the Gardai arriving. As it is, none of us have seen any of the footage so this is all obviously conjecture.

Hypothetical Question.... If the Scumbag that was arrested for the stabbings in Phoenix Park had his arm broken during his arrest would people be screaming about Police Brutality?

RustyNut · 10-07-2012 06:35PM

MagicSean wrote: »

It's an interesting aspect of the Gardaí. The more professional and by the book they are, the less they are liked.

This thread is not about the majority of by the book professional Guards but one who abused his position because he didn't like what someone was legally doing,used violence, caused a serious injury and conspired with his colleagues to bring false charges against an innocent man.

Surely all the professional Guards out the should be glad to see these bad apples exposed as they are the ones that give Garda bashers the excuse to bad mouth the force as a whole.

TomRooney · 10-07-2012 06:42PM

There's no denying that the Gardai have a tough job to do, that being said there is zero justification for any Gardai to ever deny someone their rights as oulined in the constitution and the general law of the land.

The problem can only stem from a couple of sources, one being training.
If Gardai were trained properly and told that this sort of thing (physical assault) is not acceptable unless the Garda is defending himself then I doubt the bully boy attitude would be as prevalent as it it seems to be in the Gardai, this seems to stem from a culture of 'us' (Gardai) and 'them' (every non Garda) and the ridiculous superiority complex some Gardai seem to have, forgetting totally that they are not the law but merely administrators of the law who are subject to the same laws as everyone else.

Not all Gardai have bad attitudes, and as I already said, they have tough job, they are generally 10 times better today when dealing with people than they were 10 or 20 years ago in my opinion, but they must never forget what it is they are paid to do and that is to serve the public as guardians of peace for the citizens of the Republic and this includes themselves abiding by the law and being answerable to the law.

TomRooney · 10-07-2012 06:44PM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

FYP :rolleyes:

Are you for real?? Ever traveled abroad? Start a fight outside a Turkish Bar and come back and tell us how bad our coppers are.

IMO, the Cops here went a little over the top on the night and way over the top when they went to court.

According to the Defendants Barrister there was 30 seconds between checking the ID and the Garda dragging the defendant to the car. What was said in those 30 seconds?? Enough to wind up the copper obviously and probably enough to be considered a breach of the peace.
No doubt the Bouncers had pointed out the troublemakers to the Gardai, otherwise why ask him for ID?
Like others, I'd love to see the footage prior to the Gardai arriving. As it is, none of us have seen any of the footage so this is all obviously conjecture.

Hypothetical Question.... If the Scumbag that was arrested for the stabbings in Phoenix Park had his arm broken during his arrest would people be screaming about Police Brutality?

Winding up a 'copper' is not an excuse, if a member of the Gardai can't put his ego aside and deal with a situation without resorting to violence then maybe he/she is in the wrong profession.

I mean door men get wound up all night every night, does that mean they would be justified assaulting someone? No is the answer.

TomRooney · 10-07-2012 06:50PM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

FYP :rolleyes:

Are you for real?? Ever traveled abroad? Start a fight outside a Turkish Bar and come back and tell us how bad our coppers are.

IMO, the Cops here went a little over the top on the night and way over the top when they went to court.

According to the Defendants Barrister there was 30 seconds between checking the ID and the Garda dragging the defendant to the car. What was said in those 30 seconds?? Enough to wind up the copper obviously and probably enough to be considered a breach of the peace.
No doubt the Bouncers had pointed out the troublemakers to the Gardai, otherwise why ask him for ID?
Like others, I'd love to see the footage prior to the Gardai arriving. As it is, none of us have seen any of the footage so this is all obviously conjecture.

Hypothetical Question.... If the Scumbag that was arrested for the stabbings in Phoenix Park had his arm broken during his arrest would people be screaming about Police Brutality?

Oh, and just to note, the Gardai have no right to ask anyone not driving a motor vehicle for ID, there is no law in Ireland stating an Irish citizen must carry ID.

coolhandluke · 10-07-2012 06:53PM

TomRooney wrote: »

There's no denying that the Gardai have a tough job to do, that being said there is zero justification for any Gardai to ever deny someone their rights as oulined in the constitution and the general law of the land.

The problem can only stem from a couple of sources, one being training.
If Gardai were trained properly and told that this sort of thing (physical assault) is not acceptable unless the Garda is defending himself then I doubt the bully boy attitude would be as prevalent as it it seems to be in the Gardai, this seems to stem from a culture of 'us' (Gardai) and 'them' (every non Garda) and the ridiculous superiority complex some Gardai seem to have, forgetting totally that they are not the law but merely administrators of the law who are subject to the same laws as everyone else.

Not all Gardai have bad attitudes, and as I already said, they have tough job, they are generally 10 times better today when dealing with people than they were 10 or 20 years ago in my opinion, but they must never forget what it is they are paid to do and that is to serve the public as guardians of peace for the citizens of the Republic and this includes themselves abiding by the law and being answerable to the law.

Bravo my good man, yes that's why we have a 96 page thread about mayhem in the phoenix pk, because the gardai are bully boys :rolleyes:

TomRooney · 10-07-2012 06:58PM

coolhandluke wrote: »

Bravo my good man, yes that's why we have a 96 page thread about mayhem in the phoenix pk, because the gardai are bully boys :rolleyes:

Keep your condescending undertones to yourself 'my good man'
I suggest you re-read what I wrote, I never said all Gardai are bully boys but you are certainly deluded if you think they dont exist in the organisation.

Please, try to look at the issue from a perspective outside the biased myopic view you currently seem to have, it may even help you grow as a person.

twowheelsonly · 10-07-2012 06:59PM

TomRooney wrote: »

Winding up a 'copper' is not an excuse, if a member of the Gardai can't put his ego aside and deal with a situation without resorting to violence then maybe he/she is in the wrong profession.

I mean door men get wound up all night every night, does that mean they would be justified assaulting someone? No is the answer.

I didn't say it was an excuse, but it could be a reason.

Quite possibly this cop has faced the same situation 200 times before without losing it. Quite possibly he's a bad apple. None of us can say for sure. What we can say for sure though is that people (including bouncers!!) do have breaking points which can vary from day to day. Doesn't necessarily mean that he's in the wrong job though.

What strikes me here is that if this case was in the District Court why did he have a Barrister. It's not unknown but is quite unusual.

twowheelsonly · 10-07-2012 07:03PM

TomRooney wrote: »

Oh, and just to note, the Gardai have no right to ask anyone not driving a motor vehicle for ID, there is no law in Ireland stating an Irish citizen must carry ID.

I actually didn't know that!!

However, in the context of what I was saying he was asked for ID as the Cop was probably aware that he would have it. (Most young people going drinking these days do carry it..)

TomRooney · 10-07-2012 07:06PM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

I didn't say it was an excuse, but it could be a reason.

Quite possibly this cop has faced the same situation 200 times before without losing it. Quite possibly he's a bad apple. None of us can say for sure. What we can say for sure though is that people (including bouncers!!) do have breaking points which can vary from day to day. Doesn't necessarily mean that he's in the wrong job though.

What strikes me here is that if this case was in the District Court why did he have a Barrister. It's not unknown but is quite unusual.

Perhaps he wanted the best possible defence in a case that could lead to a conviction for him, possibly causing untold misery in his future life?

The question remains, if the Garda in question did in fact assault this guy, why isn't he up on assault charges?

We are all human, and we can all make mistakes but getting physical with someone in any situation other than self defence is wrong and unjustified.
Gardai are supposed to be an example to society, using gratuitous violence against a person who is not attacking you is wrong no matter how much of an idiot the person may be.

SocSocPol · 10-07-2012 07:21PM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

I didn't say it was an excuse, but it could be a reason.

Quite possibly this cop has faced the same situation 200 times before without losing it. Quite possibly he's a bad apple. None of us can say for sure. What we can say for sure though is that people (including bouncers!!) do have breaking points which can vary from day to day. Doesn't necessarily mean that he's in the wrong job though.

What strikes me here is that if this case was in the District Court why did he have a Barrister. It's not unknown but is quite unusual.

EH because the knew that An Garda Siochana were trying to have him convicted on perjured testimony, in his case i would have a barrister there too!

RustyNut · 10-07-2012 07:34PM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

FYP :rolleyes:

Are you for real?? Ever traveled abroad? Start a fight outside a Turkish Bar and come back and tell us how bad our coppers are.

Agreed AGS are far from the worst, they should aspire to be the best

twowheelsonly wrote: »

What was said in those 30 seconds?? Enough to wind up the copper obviously and probably enough to be considered a breach of the peace.

Just speculation on your behalf as there was no evidence of this nor was a charge breach of the peace brought.

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Like others, I'd love to see the footage prior to the Gardai arriving. As it is, none of us have seen any of the footage so this is all obviously conjecture.

The judge was presented with all the available evidence an based his decision on it. If there was evidence of an offence on the video before the Gardai arrived why was he not charged?

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Hypothetical Question.... If the Scumbag that was arrested for the stabbings in Phoenix Park had his arm broken during his arrest would people be screaming about Police Brutality?

Yes if it was broken for no justifiable reason and that goes for any member of the public.

stoneill · 10-07-2012 07:37PM

Maybe yer man said to the Guard that he would rape him at Corrib Field or something and he took offence.

LH Pathe · 10-07-2012 07:45PM

These modern Garda are just modern normal folk aka chavs. Grew up the same dingey disco scene don't be surprised they didn't intervene on Saturday for instance, same as the 'security' - a new low, seen as normal behavior. People are beinng given supended sentences for gangland style kidnappings, seen as a bit of skit by the judges emselves.. just how far up has this permeated?

zulutango · 10-07-2012 07:51PM

I had a run in with the Gardaí in Limerick a few years ago. I only wish that I had been able to record, or somebody else for that matter, their behaviour. After reading about this case, I wonder was this particular Garda involved in mine.

I had been assaulted in the city centre and was defending myself when the Gardaí came along. Instead of finding out what had actually happened (and any bystander would have confirmed that I was an innocent party) they decided to rough up both people in the fracas. On being assaulted at first by a stranger and then by the Gardaí, I was in a fairly fierce rage and resisted arrest, and that certainly didn't help matters. The Gardaí only became more violent. In the station, while still hand-cuffed and seated, I was hit again by one Garda while himself and a few others verbally abused me. Eventually, I was given the option of accepting an adult caution or being booked with a variety of trumped up charges (breach of peace, etc). I didn't want to accept the caution as I felt that I was completely innocent and had been badly treated, but was told if I didn't accept it I'd be charged and it would be my word against theirs in court, and that wasn't a risk that seemed worth taking.

I don't want to tar all Gardaí with the one brush. I have family and friends who are members of the force and I have great admiration and respect for what they do. But my impression in this case was that there was a group of young, inexperienced Gardaí who had a shoot first, ask questions later policy that only exacerbated situations. I certainly think that more senior Gardaí wouldn't have handled the situation as badly as these young officers did.

yore · 10-07-2012 07:57PM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Hypothetical Question.... If the Scumbag that was arrested for the stabbings in Phoenix Park had his arm broken during his arrest would people be screaming about Police Brutality?

It's off topic, but seeing as how you brought it up, was it not mentioned that that the actions of the fella who was arrested and charged were witnessed by Guards....they didn't seem to have been as gung-ho about wading in there and mixing it with a weapon-wielding thug. Still though, he was only stabbing people. It's not as if he was drunkly standing by, videoing stuff on his phone or any similar pressing danger to public safety.
What is the major issue here? There are two issues: 1) Excessive force / assault and 2) fabricating stories to bring a criminal conviction against someone for something he was innocent of. They can try to make up excuses against (1) but none against (2). Imagine having your life ruined, possibly losing your job or ability to travel to certain countries, because some ignorant Guard made up a story to cover over his own thuggish behaviour.
Trying to justify the assault of a bystander by comparing it to a completely unrelated and completely different case is ridiculous. It might be tentatively similar if the Guards had apprehended and stopped the "stabber" from attacking people and broken his arm in the process. But they didn't. They arrested him at some stage after he had done his damage. Just because some scumbag stabbed people in the Phoenix park, that does not give the Guards carte blanche to assault other people for no good reason.
Most of the people that you read about that bring cases against the Guards are normal, average people. You very rarely hear a case where a well-known or high profile dangerous criminal has gotten a few belts from a Guard. But then again, bullies only every pick on those who are weaker or in a weaker position than them.

twowheelsonly · 10-07-2012 08:20PM

yore wrote: »

It's off topic, but seeing as how you brought it up, was it not mentioned that that the actions of the fella who was arrested and charged were witnessed by Guards....they didn't seem to have been as gung-ho about wading in there and mixing it with a weapon-wielding thug. Still though, he was only stabbing people. It's not as if he was drunkly standing by, videoing stuff on his phone or any similar pressing danger to public safety.
What is the major issue here? There are two issues: 1) Excessive force / assault and 2) fabricating stories to bring a criminal conviction against someone for something he was innocent of. They can try to make up excuses against (1) but none against (2). Imagine having your life ruined, possibly losing your job or ability to travel to certain countries, because some ignorant Guard made up a story to cover over his own thuggish behaviour.
Trying to justify the assault of a bystander by comparing it to a completely unrelated and completely different case is ridiculous. It might be tentatively similar if the Guards had apprehended and stopped the "stabber" from attacking people and broken his arm in the process. But they didn't. They arrested him at some stage after he had done his damage. Just because some scumbag stabbed people in the Phoenix park, that does not give the Guards carte blanche to assault other people for no good reason.
Most of the people that you read about that bring cases against the Guards are normal, average people. You very rarely hear a case where a well-known or high profile dangerous criminal has gotten a few belts from a Guard. But then again, bullies only every pick on those who are weaker or in a weaker position than them.

Re Phoenix Park: My understanding is that they witnessed him stabbing one person and they DID wade in and arrest him and then discovered (from other witnesses) that he had stabbed others. Initially it was one off-duty guard that was assisted by an on-duty colleague. So kudos to them, they did their duty admirably against a dangerous man armed with a knife.

BTW, no way do I condone this cop in Limerick trying to stitch someone up. Totally unacceptable IMO. His actions on the night itself though I'd hold my fire on as we don't know the full story.
I'd certainly be extremely dubious of this guy being an innocent bystander though. Hands up if I'm wrong but I don't think I am.

The reason for mentioning Phoenix Park is for comparison purposes. Sometimes we don't seem to mind the cops dishing out a bit of street justice, and if that guy had his arm broken or ended up with two black eyes then we wouldn't really mind. Likewise the other thread going on here where the two junkies got their asses handed to them. Almost all are praising and condoning the actions of the foreigners. However, if that went to court, and we never saw the video, all we'd hear about is two muscular foreigners beating up two sick dubs and kicking them on the ground and we'd be screaming blue murder about it!! It's all about context and unfortunately we don't have the full context of what went on in Limerick.

Turpentine · 10-07-2012 08:48PM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Re Phoenix Park: My understanding is that they witnessed him stabbing one person and they DID wade in and arrest him and then discovered (from other witnesses) that he had stabbed others. Initially it was one off-duty guard that was assisted by an on-duty colleague. So kudos to them, they did their duty admirably against a dangerous man armed with a knife.

BTW, no way do I condone this cop in Limerick trying to stitch someone up. Totally unacceptable IMO. His actions on the night itself though I'd hold my fire on as we don't know the full story.
I'd certainly be extremely dubious of this guy being an innocent bystander though. Hands up if I'm wrong but I don't think I am.

The reason for mentioning Phoenix Park is for comparison purposes. Sometimes we don't seem to mind the cops dishing out a bit of street justice, and if that guy had his arm broken or ended up with two black eyes then we wouldn't really mind. Likewise the other thread going on here where the two junkies got their asses handed to them. Almost all are praising and condoning the actions of the foreigners. However, if that went to court, and we never saw the video, all we'd hear about is two muscular foreigners beating up two sick dubs and kicking them on the ground and we'd be screaming blue murder about it!! It's all about context and unfortunately we don't have the full context of what went on in Limerick.

It would seem more reasonable to break someones arm in the course of removing a knife from their hands after they've already proven that they are willing to use it, yet that didn't happen. Certainly more reasonable than breaking the arm of someone who has done nothing illegal. The two cases are irrelevent to each other.

IMHO the worst part in this case is the perjury by the guards in question, it undermines the whole justice system if they are seen to get away with it.

Also, a broken arm will eventually heal but a unwarranted criminal conviction could destroy a life. How many other lives have those bastards ruined because the civilian didn't have access to CCTV.

Nodin · 10-07-2012 08:51PM

LH Pathe wrote: »

These modern Garda are just modern normal folk aka chavs. Grew up the same dingey disco scene don't be surprised they didn't intervene on Saturday for instance, same as the 'security' - a new low, seen as normal behavior. People are beinng given supended sentences for gangland style kidnappings, seen as a bit of skit by the judges emselves.. just how far up has this permeated?

What's that in english?

yore · 10-07-2012 09:02PM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Re Phoenix Park: My understanding is that they witnessed him stabbing one person and they DID wade in and arrest him and then discovered (from other witnesses) that he had stabbed others. Initially it was one off-duty guard that was assisted by an on-duty colleague. So kudos to them, they did their duty admirably against a dangerous man armed with a knife.

BTW, no way do I condone this cop in Limerick trying to stitch someone up. Totally unacceptable IMO. His actions on the night itself though I'd hold my fire on as we don't know the full story.
I'd certainly be extremely dubious of this guy being an innocent bystander though. Hands up if I'm wrong but I don't think I am.

The reason for mentioning Phoenix Park is for comparison purposes. Sometimes we don't seem to mind the cops dishing out a bit of street justice, and if that guy had his arm broken or ended up with two black eyes then we wouldn't really mind. Likewise the other thread going on here where the two junkies got their asses handed to them. Almost all are praising and condoning the actions of the foreigners. However, if that went to court, and we never saw the video, all we'd hear about is two muscular foreigners beating up two sick dubs and kicking them on the ground and we'd be screaming blue murder about it!! It's all about context and unfortunately we don't have the full context of what went on in Limerick.

There is a difference between having to get rough in the course of their duties to protect the public and dishing out summary justice. Of course nobody is going to be complaining if the Guards have to use force to arrest someone. The same as how I'm not going to complain if I'm in a nightclub and the bouncers manhandle and sit on a fella who starts throwing glasses around the place or trying to start fights. But if I saw the same bouncers randomly kicking the sh1te out of someone innocent for the craic I wouldn't say "ah sure grand. I wouldn't complain if your man way trying to glass me"
As someone else posted, guards are administrators of the law. They are not the law. Being drunk, or an ar$ehole, does not justify your getting assaulted

TheChizler · 10-07-2012 09:59PM

TomRooney wrote: »

Oh, and just to note, the Gardai have no right to ask anyone not driving a motor vehicle for ID, there is no law in Ireland stating an Irish citizen must carry ID.

Everybody has the right to ask anybody for ID actually. It's only in the motor situation that you're obliged to produce it.

TomRooney · 10-07-2012 10:11PM

TheChizler wrote: »

Everybody has the right to ask anybody for ID actually. It's only in the motor situation that you're obliged to produce it.

Eh, in the context of the discussion, I think what I meant was quite obvious. Your post is a non point.

TheChizler · 10-07-2012 10:22PM

TomRooney wrote: »

Eh, in the context of the discussion, I think what I meant was quite obvious. Your post is a non point.

I disagree, I feel there's an important distinction between the two. To reasonable people they work out the same, but to some unreasonable person reading this they may go out tonight thinking that the Gardaí have no right to ask for ID; cue the exchange:

"Can I see your ID please? You don't have any right to ask me for ID it's the law! I think you'll find I can ask you anything. No you can't so f off! You're under arrest under section 8 of the public order act, failure to comply with a direction given by a member of the Garda Síochána. Police brutality!"

And thus the content of tomorrow night's thread.

h2005 · 10-07-2012 10:24PM

Have these Guards been charged with perjury and assault?

frozenbanana · 10-07-2012 10:52PM

Based on the article alone it's very hard to defend these two guards.

I wouldn't get to hung up on the broken arm, I the guard set to do it, I'd imagine it happened by accident in a struggle. It can happen easily, as anyone who did any contact sports will tel you. I myself roke my collarbone doing a simple fli on a mattress.

Alleged perjury is the real issue here, it's wrong and it shouldn't have happened.

However:

People tend to forget that guards deal with violence on nearly daily basis. Over and over again they see little scumbags getting away with murder (sometimes literally). Even when the guilty are caught, they enjoy free legal aid to help them get off, and even if they are convicted they get laughable sentences. And then they serve approximately a third of it (between automatic 25% off and temporary release). As a result you have people with 80 or 100 convictions for assault, public order and similar offences free to walk out of court with yet another conviction, which means nothing to them. If you watch it happen regularly it has to frustrate and affect you, no matter how professional you are.

Another thing is that you Irish are a young society, you only recently became independent and the mistrust towards authority is still deep in your blood. You just hate anyone telling you what to do, which makes the policing in Ireland very very hard. Your lack of respect for rules, creates this huge grey area - sure I can cut this amber light, take a piss on a street, have a little fight, no harm done. Don't get me wrong - this 'sure it'll be grand' attitude is great, it's what makes everyone in the world love the Irish and is a reason why I'm here, but it can be a nightmare from the policing point of view.

I had professional dealings with police in few European countries and I think all things considered, the AGS is doing a pretty god job. Brake a law in England, Spain or Poland an see what happens.

As for stretching the truth in court - i'd imagine it does happen. But if you think only guards do it, you're a fool. I'm not even talking about the defendants themselves, them lying is to be expected. But when it comes to sentencing, every little scumbag is suddenly a pilar of his community, who doesn't do drugs or drink anymore and sure he has to get to see his kids almost every week so it would be inhumane to lock him up. In other words the esteemed members of the legal profession are no strangers to lying and exaggerating themselves.

The legal system is another story completely. Created by lawyers, run by lawyers, with no outside overseers whatsoever. It's a clique whose main purpose is to make money for themselves. Legal aid system is a joke in itself, there are no rules to it, it's entirely up to the judge to award it, and sure wasn't the judge a barrister himself?

Of course journalists won't cover it, due to risk of legal consequences. Who would want to take on bunch of solicitors (who even challenged and took down simple customer review ratemysolicitor website), if there are the guards, who are actually prevented by their code of conduct from defending themselves. As a result AGS as an organisation and individual guards are getting blamed for failings of the legal system.

Anyway, went on a bit of a rant here, bottom line is: perjury is bad, but let's not forget is that all we know about what happened is an article in a paper, which is rather one sided, i.e. we don;t know what happened before your man started recording.

yore · 10-07-2012 11:43PM

frozenbanana wrote: »

Based on the article alone it's very hard to defend these two guards.

I wouldn't get to hung up on the broken arm, I the guard set to do it, I'd imagine it happened by accident in a struggle. It can happen easily, as anyone who did any contact sports will tel you. I myself roke my collarbone doing a simple fli on a mattress.

Alleged perjury is the real issue here, it's wrong and it shouldn't have happened.

However:

People tend to forget that guards deal with violence on nearly daily basis. Over and over again they see little scumbags getting away with murder (sometimes literally). Even when the guilty are caught, they enjoy free legal aid to help them get off, and even if they are convicted they get laughable sentences. And then they serve approximately a third of it (between automatic 25% off and temporary release). As a result you have people with 80 or 100 convictions for assault, public order and similar offences free to walk out of court with yet another conviction, which means nothing to them. If you watch it happen regularly it has to frustrate and affect you, no matter how professional you are.

Another thing is that you Irish are a young society, you only recently became independent and the mistrust towards authority is still deep in your blood. You just hate anyone telling you what to do, which makes the policing in Ireland very very hard. Your lack of respect for rules, creates this huge grey area - sure I can cut this amber light, take a piss on a street, have a little fight, no harm done. Don't get me wrong - this 'sure it'll be grand' attitude is great, it's what makes everyone in the world love the Irish and is a reason why I'm here, but it can be a nightmare from the policing point of view.

I had professional dealings with police in few European countries and I think all things considered, the AGS is doing a pretty god job. Brake a law in England, Spain or Poland an see what happens.

As for stretching the truth in court - i'd imagine it does happen. But if you think only guards do it, you're a fool. I'm not even talking about the defendants themselves, them lying is to be expected. But when it comes to sentencing, every little scumbag is suddenly a pilar of his community, who doesn't do drugs or drink anymore and sure he has to get to see his kids almost every week so it would be inhumane to lock him up. In other words the esteemed members of the legal profession are no strangers to lying and exaggerating themselves.

The legal system is another story completely. Created by lawyers, run by lawyers, with no outside overseers whatsoever. It's a clique whose main purpose is to make money for themselves. Legal aid system is a joke in itself, there are no rules to it, it's entirely up to the judge to award it, and sure wasn't the judge a barrister himself?

Of course journalists won't cover it, due to risk of legal consequences. Who would want to take on bunch of solicitors (who even challenged and took down simple customer review ratemysolicitor website), if there are the guards, who are actually prevented by their code of conduct from defending themselves. As a result AGS as an organisation and individual guards are getting blamed for failings of the legal system.

Anyway, went on a bit of a rant here, bottom line is: perjury is bad, but let's not forget is that all we know about what happened is an article in a paper, which is rather one sided, i.e. we don;t know what happened before your man started recording.

No offence, but so what if they get hassle on their job - that is pretty much part and parcel of the job which is similar to teachers having to deal with brats of idiot parents etc. Maybe it shouldn't be the case, but it is and everyone knows it before they enter the profession. Bouncers get hassle too. If you have a bouncer who reacts to every gobsh1te with a punch to the head you'd say he shouldn't be in that job. It's the same for a guard.
And if the criminals get away with light sentences, that's not the Guards problem or business.It's not for them to decide and as such it's irrelevant to their duties. We have a separate judicial system for good reason. I'm sure it might be frustrating, but sure so what. I'd reckon it's a lot more frustrating for the poor people who have to live in the criminals community. When there is a court case, the guard has to take a day off his duties to sit in a courtroom to give evidence and it is a waste of his time alright, especially if the conviction is meaningless, but again, that's not for him to decide. Equally so, it is a waste of garda time and resources if the guard has to take a day from his duties to go to court to give false evidence for a concocted case such as the one in this story!
If I'm a street sweeper or litter warden and I report or issue fines/cause summonses to be issued to the same people over and over for littering and they keep getting off with miniscule or no fines in court, then it doesn't mean I can use that as a justification to batter the next person who annoys me in any way.

h2005 · 10-07-2012 11:54PM

h2005 wrote: »

Have these Guards been charged with perjury and assault?

Anyone?

MagicSean · 10-07-2012 11:56PM

yore wrote: »

No offence, but so what if they get hassle on their job - that is pretty much part and parcel of the job which is similar to teachers having to deal with brats of idiot parents etc. Maybe it shouldn't be the case, but it is and everyone knows it before they enter the profession. Bouncers get hassle too. If you have a bouncer who reacts to every gobsh1te with a punch to the head you'd say he shouldn't be in that job. It's the same for a guard.
And if the criminals get away with light sentences, that's not the Guards problem or business.It's not for them to decide and as such it's irrelevant to their duties. We have a separate judicial system for good reason. I'm sure it might be frustrating, but sure so what. I'd reckon it's a lot more frustrating for the poor people who have to live in the criminals community. When there is a court case, the guard has to take a day off his duties to sit in a courtroom to give evidence and it is a waste of his time alright, especially if the conviction is meaningless, but again, that's not for him to decide. Equally so, it is a waste of garda time and resources if the guard has to take a day from his duties to go to court to give false evidence for a concocted case such as the one in this story!
If I'm a street sweeper or litter warden and I report or issue fines/cause summonses to be issued to the same people over and over for littering and they keep getting off with miniscule or no fines in court, then it doesn't mean I can use that as a justification to batter the next person who annoys me in any way.

i see you come from a world of robots. What brings you to us humans?

hondasam · 11-07-2012 12:03AM

''Insp Reidy said Mr Daly had not complained of any injury and the custody record kept by Sgt John Cleary at Henry Street Garda Station recorded he was not injured when he was released from custody at 1.20am - 30 minutes after his arrest.''

Who broke his arm? was it broken after he left the station or not?

Judge appalled at video of Gardai

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