Judge appalled at video of Gardai

Chuck Stone · 10-07-2012 04:14PM

MagicSean wrote: »

There will eventually be some laws brough in regarding phone recording in public imo.

I believe recording police brutality is our civic duty. As regards privacy - the recording can be uploaded anonymously, held as evidence, or given to a third party wikileaks style. If a person is being arrested for being a scumbag he doesn't deserve privacy. If cop is being a scumbag he doesn't deserve it either.

Even if the more fascistic among us (plenty of them in this thread - frighteningly enough) did manage to make it illegal what are they going to do? Arrest 50 people who have their phones in their hands at the time? Commandeer all CCTV footage? In your dreams. The genie is out of the bottle and it is never ever going back in.

Caliden · 10-07-2012 04:15PM

I was out in Galway one night and saw a girl getting tossed into the back of a Garda van and decided to take a picture of it.

The picture came out ****e but in less than 10 seconds I was surrounded by no less than 4 Gardai with one saying something along the lines of "delete that video or I will arrest under section blah of blah blah" with another chiming in with something along the same lines.

I knew it was utter ****e but when you're surrounded by Gardai just waiting for you to make a wrong move I deleted the picture and got a taxi.

yore · 10-07-2012 04:21PM

MagicSean wrote: »

An adult caution is only available if you accept your responsability in what you are alleged to do. If you decide to fight it then you cannot avail of the adult caution.

What is this supposed to mean
Guard: Yeah we broke your arm. but we'll say it was your own fault and you can walk away if you accept this caution and accept responsibility
Victim: hmmmm. Wait a minute, I didn't do anything and had my arm broken
Guard: It's either that or we'll bring you to court and try to get you a criminal conviction
Victim: I want to stand up for my rights
Guard: Right so. It'll be your word against mine. Wait here a minute until I concoct a report about how drunk you were before my colleague signs off on how you magically sobered up fully in the space of half an hour.

The Guards didn't have to falsely caution or charge the victim. They tried to do so to remove blame from themselves and save their own skin. Pointing out a technicality such as you did is nonsense. What next? Guards falsely manufacture evidence to charge someone random with murder and then you can say "ah yeah, but sure he wouldn't plead guilty to manslaughter so they had to charge him with murder"

MagicSean · 10-07-2012 04:21PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I believe recording police brutality is our civic duty. As regards privacy - the recording can be uploaded anonymously, held as evidence, or given to a third party wikileaks style. If a person is being arrested for being a scumbag he doesn't deserve privacy. If cop is being a scumbag he doesn't deserve it either.

Even if the more fascistic among us (plenty of them in this thread - frighteningly enough) did manage to make it illegal what are they going to do? Arrest 50 people who have their phones in their hands at the time? Commandeer all CCTV footage? In your dreams. The genie is out of the bottle and it is never ever going back in.

Nice of you to only quote a part of my post. Sorry, I meant to say pathetic, not nice. You also dodged the whole part about people being treated by medical personnel.

Not every Garda who arrests someone is using police brutality. Not everyone who is arrested is a scumbag. Not everyone who is arrested is guilty. In fact, the law in Ireland requires a person to be arrested merely to be questioned formaly in relation to a crime. People are still entitled to their privacy.

MagicSean · 10-07-2012 04:23PM

yore wrote: »

What is this supposed to mean
Guard: Yeah we broke your arm. but we'll say it was your own fault and you can walk away if you accept this caution and accept responsibility
Victim: hmmmm. Wait a minute, I didn't do anything and had my arm broken
Guard: It's either that or we'll bring you to court and try to get you a criminal conviction
Victim: I want to stand up for my rights
Guard: Right so. It'll be your word against mine. Wait here a minute until I concoct a report about how drunk you were before my colleague signs off on how you magically sobered up fully in the space of half an hour.

The Guards didn't have to falsely caution or charge the victim. They tried to do so to remove blame from themselves and save their own skin. Pointing out a technicality such as you did is nonsense. What next? Guards falsely manufacture evidence to charge someone random with murder and then you can say "ah yeah, but sure he wouldn't plead guilty to manslaughter so they had to charge him with murder"

Maybe you should read up on the adult caution scheme. An adult caution is offered to someone who wishes to accept that they did wrong but would like to avoid a court conviction. You cannot accept a caution while at the same time saying you didn't do anything wrong. The court is the correct place to argue that.

yore · 10-07-2012 04:28PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Maybe you should read up on the adult caution scheme. An adult caution is offered to someone who wishes to accept that they did wrong but would like to avoid a court conviction. You cannot accept a caution while at the same time saying you didn't do anything wrong. The court is the correct place to argue that.

No, I think I have the idea. It's like accepting an on the spot fine and points if you are caught speeding. Alternatively you can go to court and fight them, but risk more penalties if you do that.
You seem to be saying that the Guards were right to falsely bring that man to court because he wouldn't accept responsibility via accepting a bogus caution. Or that they were somehow obliged to charge him and bring him to court. I'll let you into a little secret - they had another option which was to not make sh1t up about the fella and falsely charge him.

Nodin · 10-07-2012 04:30PM

MagicSean wrote: »

An adult caution is only available if you accept your responsability in what you are alleged to do. If you decide to fight it then you cannot avail of the adult caution.

...which rather presumes there was a basis for him being arrested in the first place.

Paparazzo · 10-07-2012 04:31PM

MagicSean wrote: »

There will eventually be some laws brough in regarding phone recording in public imo. Whatever about recording the Gardaí on duty, the privacy of the person being arrested should be considered. The same goes for people recording at the aftermath of car crashes or other tragedies.

Cameras banned from public! Seriously, think about it for a second, that's ridiculous.

Chuck Stone · 10-07-2012 04:34PM

@ MagicSean. I avoided nothing - I simply addressed the part that concerned me most.

MagicSean wrote: »

Whatever about recording the Gardaí on duty, the privacy of the person being arrested should be considered.

I'd imagine innocent people being arrested would feel safer in the knowledge that someone is/might be filming it rather than it being illegal - I know I would.

The same goes for people recording at the aftermath of car crashes or other tragedies.

I believe that recording the aftermath of crashes and such is perverse voyeurism and totally disrespectful to the injured and dead but I can't see how legislation would prevent these insensitive weirdos from doing it.

Atlantis50 · 10-07-2012 04:37PM

Paparazzo wrote: »

Cameras banned from public! Seriously, think about it for a second, that's ridiculous.

:rolleyes:

Where did anyone suggest that?

Paparazzo · 10-07-2012 04:39PM

Atlantis50 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Where did anyone suggest that?

The post I quoted. Here it is again:

MagicSean wrote: »

There will eventually be some laws brough in regarding phone recording in public imo. Whatever about recording the Gardaí on duty, the privacy of the person being arrested should be considered. The same goes for people recording at the aftermath of car crashes or other tragedies.

Atlantis50 · 10-07-2012 04:39PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I believe that recording the aftermath of crashes and such is perverse voyeurism and totally disrespectful to the injured and dead but I can't see how legislation would prevent these insensitive weirdos from doing it.

Any such legislation would probably not ban making a recording, but would make it illegal to publish the recording without the consent of the recorded with some exceptions (e.g if it's in 'the public interest').

charlemont · 10-07-2012 04:40PM

The Guard who broke the man's arm should be charged with assault, All the fool has done is bring more heat and a bad name on his colleagues, I'm sure the man will sue him now and he can kiss his career goodbye.

Imagine him searching you and finding a packet of large Rizla papers :P

Atlantis50 · 10-07-2012 04:40PM

Paparazzo wrote: »

The post I quoted. Here it is again:

See my post above.

RustyNut · 10-07-2012 04:44PM

MagicSean wrote: »

There will eventually be some laws brough in regarding phone recording in public imo. Whatever about recording the Gardaí on duty, the privacy of the person being arrested should be considered. The same goes for people recording at the aftermath of car crashes or other tragedies.

The only people to benefit from this would be the people with something to hide, like the few rogue Guards who use excessive force etc.

I'd bet the banner who was filmed recently giving some young lad a few slaps with her asp would be glad of the video of the incident as it would appear to justify her use of force.

Chuck Stone · 10-07-2012 04:50PM

Atlantis50 wrote: »

Any such legislation would probably not ban making a recording, but would make it illegal to publish the recording

Sounds like a nightmare to police.

Point taken though.

hatrickpatrick · 10-07-2012 04:50PM

croker1 wrote: »

The guy probably deserved it tbh! I'm pretty sure he wasn't as innocent as a lot of people are making him out to be

The Gardai do not have the right to assault anybody. Period. They are allowed to use reasonable force when it's absolutely necessary. In this case it was neither reasonable or necessary.

What the hell does "leave the area" even mean? It's a public street, does it mean go to the next street, walk 5 minutes down the road, what?

MadsL · 10-07-2012 04:54PM

biko wrote: »

Apparently it is in some states in the "land of the free" though.

Apparently, you are entirely wrong.

Illinois has an anti-eavesdropping law. A citizen recorded police investigators trying to convince her not to file a report against an officer she claims groped her while on duty. She spent two weeks in jail charged under that law.

The ACLU took up the case and a federal court ruled that Illinois' controversial eavesdropping law "likely violates" the first amendment, and called for the state to stop prosecuting those facing eavesdropping charges.

The ACLU would take this to the Supreme Court if necessary.

No other state has such a law, if it did, it too would likely violate the first amendment of the "land of the free".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/09/illinois-eavesdropping-la_n_1500272.html

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Paparazzo · 10-07-2012 04:55PM

Atlantis50 wrote: »

See my post above.

What's the part of the phone that takes photos and records video? I can't think of the name. My phone has a 8 megapixel....eh.....
Sorry, can't think of what it's called.

hatrickpatrick · 10-07-2012 04:55PM

croker1 wrote: »

Because my point was that the man in question was not set upon by the guards for no reason. He was causing enough trouble for the bouncers to call the guards in the first place. The way people were talking about him in this thread you would think the guards spotted him across the road and thought "He looks like the perfect lad to kick the **** out of"

Being "set upon" by the Guards is not acceptable whether you've done something wrong or not. Breaking somebody's arm is not reasonable force. I can't imagine any scenario in which that level of violence would be required to arrest somebody.

MagicSean · 10-07-2012 05:01PM

yore wrote: »

No, I think I have the idea. It's like accepting an on the spot fine and points if you are caught speeding. Alternatively you can go to court and fight them, but risk more penalties if you do that.
You seem to be saying that the Guards were right to falsely bring that man to court because he wouldn't accept responsibility via accepting a bogus caution. Or that they were somehow obliged to charge him and bring him to court. I'll let you into a little secret - they had another option which was to not make sh1t up about the fella and falsely charge him.

You are completely misrepresenting me. I never said they should have brought him to court. I simply explained to you why an adult caution could not be used in such an instance.

Paparazzo wrote: »

Cameras banned from public! Seriously, think about it for a second, that's ridiculous.

Never said anything like that.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

@ MagicSean. I avoided nothing - I simply addressed the part that concerned me most.

No chuck, you dealt with the privacy issue which was also in my post but did not quote it.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I'd imagine innocent people being arrested would feel safer in the knowledge that someone is/might be filming it rather than it being illegal - I know I would.

I disagree. An inocent person would likely be embarassed to have their name and picture published in relation to a crime. Look at that landlord in England who was questioned in relation to Joanna Yeates. Do you think he was happy the media were there to ensure his handcuffs weren't too tight?

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I believe that recording the aftermath of crashes and such is perverse voyeurism and totally disrespectful to the injured and dead but I can't see how legislation would prevent these insensitive weirdos from doing it.

I meant more along the lines of publishing the footage to be honest. Video something if you are there sure. But pass it to the proper authorities after, be it the Gardaí, the Ombudsman, the HSA or whoever. There should be no right to distribute, sell or keep it for your own amusement.

RustyNut wrote: »

The only people to benefit from this would be the people with something to hide, like the few rogue Guards who use excessive force etc.

I'd bet the banner who was filmed recently giving some young lad a few slaps with her asp would be glad of the video of the incident as it would appear to justify her use of force.

Maybe she would, but that footage was not handed to the Ombudsman, it was posted on youtube. Almost worthless as regards it's evidential value. i disagree that the only people who would benefit would be rogue gardaí. Many people wish to preserve their privacy fpr various reasons. i've already given the example of the Joanna Yeates case.

Dangerous Man · 10-07-2012 05:03PM

Guards in perverting the course of justice / assault / intimidation / collusion / cowardice shocker. I don't know how many more instances of this kind of thing we need to see before we realize how terrible our police force is...

MagicSean · 10-07-2012 05:03PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Being "set upon" by the Guards is not acceptable whether you've done something wrong or not. Breaking somebody's arm is not reasonable force. I can't imagine any scenario in which that level of violence would be required to arrest somebody.

Violence isn't necessary to break a bone, force is. The two things are not the same. A single strike from a baton could break an arm but would still be considered very reasonable force.

RustyNut · 10-07-2012 05:32PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Many people wish to preserve their privacy fpr various reasons. i've already given the example of the Joanna Yeates case.

If you are in a public place then what you do is public.

Chuck Stone · 10-07-2012 05:50PM

Dangerous Man wrote: »

I don't know how many more instances of this kind of thing we need to see before we realize how terrible our police force is...

I don't think we've that bad of a police force in the grand scheme of things tbh. In a general sense I'd much rather have to deal with an Irish Garda over any other nationality of police.

MagicSean · 10-07-2012 06:11PM

RustyNut wrote: »

If you are in a public place then what you do is public.

If you are arrested in a private place you have to be brought into a public place afterwards. You are not there by choice.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I don't think we've that bad of a police force in the grand scheme of things tbh. In a general sense I'd much rather have to deal with an Irish Garda over any other nationality of police.

It's an interesting aspect of the Gardaí. The more professional and by the book they are, the less they are liked.

phill106 · 10-07-2012 06:21PM

syklops wrote: »

We are not being told all the facts, from either side.

DIdnt the cctv show all the facts? Injured party minding his own business, then filming the cops, and then getting attacked?

Chuck Stone · 10-07-2012 06:22PM

MagicSean wrote: »

The more professional and by the book they are, the less they are liked.

I don't think 'professional' and 'by the book' need be synonymous.

For example, the majority of Guards here won't be ball breakers over a week out of motor tax - but could still come across as professional and courteous.

Also, I've been on nights out and there have been guards in the group and it doesn't change the atmosphere. I'm not sure that would be the same in other countries (complete guess, granted).

MagicSean · 10-07-2012 06:23PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I don't think 'professional' and 'by the book' need be synonymous.

Unfortunately many people do not see the distinction.

Dangerous Man · 10-07-2012 06:24PM

MagicSean wrote: »

If you are arrested in a private place you have to be brought into a public place afterwards. You are not there by choice.

It's an interesting aspect of the Gardaí. The more professional and by the book they are, the less they are liked.

Must troll harder.

Judge appalled at video of Gardai

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