Judge appalled at video of Gardai

croker1 · 10-07-2012 02:21PM

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm a group that insists people read an article properly before mouthing off

Yes i did read the article before i posted???
I asked the question why were the guards called in the first place and judging by everyones responses you would swear the guards were called for someone petting a puppy too hard!

Stop being so nieve. I have been to mollies on numerous occasions, I have also been fcuked out of mollies. I have also gotten mad at the bouncers for doing so. But I have never got the guards called on me

RustyNut · 10-07-2012 02:32PM

croker1 wrote: »

Yes i did read the article before i posted???
I asked the question why were the guards called in the first place and judging by everyones responses you would swear the guards were called for someone petting a puppy too hard!

Stop being so nieve. I have been to mollies on numerous occasions, I have also been fcuked out of mollies. I have also gotten mad at the bouncers for doing so. But I have never got the guards called on me

What difference does it make why they were called?

yore · 10-07-2012 02:44PM

croker1 wrote: »

Yes i did read the article before i posted???
I asked the question why were the guards called in the first place and judging by everyones responses you would swear the guards were called for someone petting a puppy too hard!

Stop being so nieve. I have been to mollies on numerous occasions, I have also been fcuked out of mollies. I have also gotten mad at the bouncers for doing so. But I have never got the guards called on me

Garda Paul Bentley said he and Garda O’Connor had responded to a call from security staff that four males were creating a disturbance having been refused entry. He had instructed Gary Daly to leave the area “at least four times” but, under cross-examination by solicitor Jerry Twomey, conceded the men had been told to leave the area collectively rather than individually. Mr Daly had been abusive and drunk on the night, was unsteady on his feet and slurring his speech, Garda Bentley said.

We know at least that the second part of that claim is untrue. We also know that there was "no interaction" between the guards and the fella who got his arm broken. I see nothing in the story to suggest that the broken arm fella was a reason that the Guards were called.

The presented evidence is:
1) Guards called to a disturbance
2) Nearby drunk lad starts filming the guards on his phone without interacting with the guards at all
3) Guard asks him for ID, and when it is produced, assaults him

Some more quotes from that article,

1) about the video, directed towards the guard:

“It shows that over the course of 100 seconds, you pushed, slapped or dragged people on nine separate occasions and that the only person who was agitated was you; that you arrived and the violence started. And when my client did something small like take video footage, you broke his arm, although I accept probably not deliberately,” Mr Twomey said.

2) A far more sinister statement

While the gardai had initially indicated the matter could be dealt with by way of adult caution, it was Mr Daly’s “decision to make a complaint to the Garda Ombudsman that his arm had been broken without reason” that led to him being charged with the offence. Gareth Howard had never been charged, Mr Twomey added.

This happened in Limerick. Isn't it nice to see all the really brave guards down there. They are well able to act as judge and jury and administer their own justice to drunk onlookers playing with camera phones.... Funny that they don't seem to be as brave, or as quick to dish out summary justice when they enter Ballinacurra Weston or similar!

To anyone supporting the guard, that fella with the phone could have been anyone. There was no interaction with the guards. So as far as they knew, he could have been friends with the fellas causing trouble, or he could have been a random passer by. So the same could happen to you if you are walking by some trouble and take out your phone. You see some trouble, take out your phone to record it, get assaulted and your arm broken and taken to court with a realistic threat of getting a bogus criminal conviction

croker1 · 10-07-2012 02:46PM

RustyNut wrote: »

What difference does it make why they were called?

Because my point was that the man in question was not set upon by the guards for no reason. He was causing enough trouble for the bouncers to call the guards in the first place. The way people were talking about him in this thread you would think the guards spotted him across the road and thought "He looks like the perfect lad to kick the **** out of"

TheChizler · 10-07-2012 02:48PM

croker1 wrote: »

Because my point was that the man in question was not set upon by the guards for no reason. He was causing enough trouble for the bouncers to call the guards in the first place. The way people were talking about him in this thread you would think the guards spotted him across the road and thought "He looks like the perfect lad to kick the **** out of"

We don't know that that's not exactly what happened.

croker1 · 10-07-2012 02:53PM

TheChizler wrote: »

We don't know that that's not exactly what happened.

If the broken arm guy had nothing to do with the guards being called then fair enough I take back everything I said. If he was the guy that caused the guards to be called then I stand by it. Simple as

Rango555 · 10-07-2012 02:57PM

kevmol88 wrote: »

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/judge-appalled-by-video-footage-after-man-says-garda-broke-his-arm-1-4036016

...he was released from custody at 1.20am - 30 minutes after his arrest.
Mr Twomey produced medical reports from the following day that showed he had fractured his arm. He also said the station record described Mr Daly as being sober upon his release from custody.
“In the space of 30 minutes, he (Mr Daly) had gone from being highly intoxicated according to the evidence of two gardai, to being sober, according to the record of a very experienced sergeant,” the judge said.

According to the EVIDENCE he was not a "drunken scumbag" as those who are doing their best to defend this particular Garda are doing their upmost to imply...

SocSocPol · 10-07-2012 02:58PM

croker1 wrote: »

Because my point was that the man in question was not set upon by the guards for no reason. He was causing enough trouble for the bouncers to call the guards in the first place. The way people were talking about him in this thread you would think the guards spotted him across the road and thought "He looks like the perfect lad to kick the **** out of"

He was set upon and seriously assaulted for no good or lawful reason, that has been clearly shown in court.
No evidence was presented in court to indicated as you claim " He was causing enough trouble for the bouncers to call the guards in the first place", if you do have proof the the injured party was the reason the guards were called please do link it to us.

MagicSean · 10-07-2012 02:58PM

There will eventually be some laws brough in regarding phone recording in public imo. Whatever about recording the Gardaí on duty, the privacy of the person being arrested should be considered. The same goes for people recording at the aftermath of car crashes or other tragedies.

invinciblePRSTV · 10-07-2012 02:59PM

LordSmeg wrote: »

croker1 wrote: »

My point exactly!
There will always be the group that insist the guards are always wrong.

Like the OP, absolutely delighted at finding this out so he could declare "They just cant help themselves".

What I'd like to know though is all these people who despise the gardai and think a police force should be made up of people with unerring knowledge of the law, unwavering professionalism in the face of anything and incorruptible integrity to place them above everyone else in the country as the epitome of all that is good about mankind.

Where do we find these people ? This isnt a perfect world, Gardai are not perfect human beings. How does a small percentage of them losing the head when dealing with retards equate to "they are all thugs" ??

For such a small police force in terms of numbers, there does appear to be an alarming number of 'incidents' - such as down in Wafurd, this case, the lad getting the shyte kicked out of him in Dublin - which show the old 'heavy gang' spirit us still alive and well in sections of the GS.

RustyNut · 10-07-2012 03:02PM

croker1 wrote: »

The guy probably deserved it tbh! I'm pretty sure he wasn't as innocent as a lot of people are making him out to be

Big assumption on your part.

croker1 wrote: »

Bouncers wouldn't call the guards for nothing! He was obviously being a scumbag in the first place.

No evidence he broke any law or was a " scumbag" of any nature, another assumption on your part.

Just because the video cuts in at a time which favours the 'victim' doesn't mean he was completely innocent

When exactly did the video cut in?

croker1 wrote: »

BUT it would have never happened if the man in question hadn't been acting the gowl in the first place.

Another Baseless assumption on your part.

croker1 wrote: »

Because my point was that the man in question was not set upon by the guards for no reason. He was causing enough trouble for the bouncers to call the guards in the first place. The way people were talking about him in this thread you would think the guards spotted him across the road and thought "He looks like the perfect lad to kick the **** out of"

This It would appear from the evidence this is exactly what happened and the judge who heard all the evidence thought this also.

SocSocPol · 10-07-2012 03:08PM

croker1 wrote: »

Yes i did read the article before i posted???
I asked the question why were the guards called in the first place and judging by everyones responses you would swear the guards were called for someone petting a puppy too hard!

Stop being so nieve. I have been to mollies on numerous occasions, I have also been fcuked out of mollies. I have also gotten mad at the bouncers for doing so. But I have never got the guards called on me

PJ Stone, is that you PJ, go on now admit it is isn't it,:D

Laneyh · 10-07-2012 03:14PM

yore wrote: »

We know at least that the second part of that claim is untrue. We also know that there was "no interaction" between the guards and the fella who got his arm broken. I see nothing in the story to suggest that the broken arm fella was a reason that the Guards were called.

The presented evidence is:
1) Guards called to a disturbance
2) Nearby drunk lad starts filming the guards on his phone without interacting with the guards at all
3) Guard asks him for ID, and when it is produced, assaults him

Some more quotes from that article,

1) about the video, directed towards the guard:

2) A far more sinister statement

This happened in Limerick. Isn't it nice to see all the really brave guards down there. They are well able to act as judge and jury and administer their own justice to drunk onlookers playing with camera phones.... Funny that they don't seem to be as brave, or as quick to dish out summary justice when they enter Ballinacurra Weston or similar!

To anyone supporting the guard, that fella with the phone could have been anyone. There was no interaction with the guards. So as far as they knew, he could have been friends with the fellas causing trouble, or he could have been a random passer by. So the same could happen to you if you are walking by some trouble and take out your phone. You see some trouble, take out your phone to record it, get assaulted and your arm broken and taken to court with a realistic threat of getting a bogus criminal conviction

How much better a society would we be if when you see some trouble your first instinct is not to record it but to offer assistance to the Gardai ?
The guy has already has his case thrown out of court and the Gardai involved have been called to task
If there are numerous instances of this happening then perhaps there is a case for Garda training on restraint methods to be reviewed. I wouldn't fancy their job of going into a hostile environment and trying to take control of a volatile situation where some idiot shoving a camera in my face would just make my job that bit harder.
They need to keep a cool head in such situations and certainly breaking someone's arm is not the ideal result but if they perceived him as a threat they were going to do whatever it took at the time to neutralise the threat.

In this case it would seem they used excessive force but its not like they just turned up throwing punches and asking questions after.
I guess in future they will just come to rely more and more on pepper spray.. I don't fancy anyone's chances of videoing with burning eyeballs

SocSocPol · 10-07-2012 03:18PM

Laneyh wrote: »

How much better a society would we be if when you see some trouble your first instinct is not to record it but to offer assistance to the Gardai ?
The guy has already has his case thrown out of court and the Gardai involved have been called to task
If there are numerous instances of this happening then perhaps there is a case for Garda training on restraint methods to be reviewed. I wouldn't fancy their job of going into a hostile environment and trying to take control of a volatile situation where some idiot shoving a camera in my face would just make my job that bit harder.
They need to keep a cool head in such situations and certainly breaking someone's arm is not the ideal result but if they perceived him as a threat they were going to do whatever it took at the time to neutralise the threat.

In this case it would seem they used excessive force but its not like they just turned up throwing punches and asking questions after.
I guess in future they will just come to rely more and more on pepper spray.. I don't fancy anyone's chances of videoing with burning eyeballs

Eh evidence suggests that in fact that is exactly what they did, worse still they then conspired with each other to pervert the course of Justice by attempting to have him wrongly convicted on false evidence. I dont see anywhere how they have yet, as you put it, been brought to task.

AEDIC · 10-07-2012 03:20PM

Laneyh wrote: »

How much better a society would we be if when you see some trouble your first instinct is not to record it but to offer assistance to the Gardai ?
The guy has already has his case thrown out of court and the Gardai involved have been called to task
If there are numerous instances of this happening then perhaps there is a case for Garda training on restraint methods to be reviewed. I wouldn't fancy their job of going into a hostile environment and trying to take control of a volatile situation where some idiot shoving a camera in my face would just make my job that bit harder.
They need to keep a cool head in such situations and certainly breaking someone's arm is not the ideal result but if they perceived him as a threat they were going to do whatever it took at the time to neutralise the threat.

In this case it would seem they used excessive force but its not like they just turned up throwing punches and asking questions after.
I guess in future they will just come to rely more and more on pepper spray.. I don't fancy any innocent person's chances of videoing with burning eyeballs

fyp

Paparazzo · 10-07-2012 03:23PM

yore wrote: »

We know at least that the second part of that claim is untrue. We also know that there was "no interaction" between the guards and the fella who got his arm broken. I see nothing in the story to suggest that the broken arm fella was a reason that the Guards were called.

The presented evidence is:
1) Guards called to a disturbance
2) Nearby drunk lad starts filming the guards on his phone without interacting with the guards at all
3) Guard asks him for ID, and when it is produced, assaults him

Some more quotes from that article,

1) about the video, directed towards the guard:

2) A far more sinister statement

This happened in Limerick. Isn't it nice to see all the really brave guards down there. They are well able to act as judge and jury and administer their own justice to drunk onlookers playing with camera phones.... Funny that they don't seem to be as brave, or as quick to dish out summary justice when they enter Ballinacurra Weston or similar!

To anyone supporting the guard, that fella with the phone could have been anyone. There was no interaction with the guards. So as far as they knew, he could have been friends with the fellas causing trouble, or he could have been a random passer by. So the same could happen to you if you are walking by some trouble and take out your phone. You see some trouble, take out your phone to record it, get assaulted and your arm broken and taken to court with a realistic threat of getting a bogus criminal conviction

Good post. It's mad that people on here are actually inventing their own evidence, ignoring real evidence, ignoring the fact that the guards lied in court and excuse a guy getting his arm broken because the guards must be right.
Must have been a similar situation in 30's germany

(Yeah, I know)

coolhandluke · 10-07-2012 03:24PM

Sleepy wrote: »

And if cops weren't afraid to use physical force to apprehend violent thugs in case they lose their jobs over it, do you think the Swedish House Mafia gig would have gotten out of control?

An unarmed police force will only be as effective as the respect it can gain from all members of society. When the criminal classes have no fear of the police force, what hope have they of protecting the rest of us?

Bingo...........cause and effect. But lets have another 66 page thread anyway, one about the gardai doing **** all, the other about them whacking some lad.

Laneyh · 10-07-2012 03:26PM

AEDIC wrote: »

fyp

We won't know if they're innocent or not being that the default stance of the Gardai may be to pepper spray them.

If we are going to judge all gardai by the actions of a few then they may well adopt the same attitude towards the general public

AEDIC · 10-07-2012 03:39PM

Laneyh wrote: »

We won't know if they're innocent or not being that the default stance of the Gardai may be to pepper spray them.

If we are going to judge all gardai by the actions of a few then they may well adopt the same attitude towards the general public

Silly comment imho, however..

Unless I am mistaken, this thread is talking about the actions of two specific gardai, perhaps you are a little confused due to you not actually reading the article maybe?

Laneyh · 10-07-2012 03:40PM

SocSocPol wrote: »

Eh evidence suggests that in fact that is exactly what they did, worse still they then conspired with each other to pervert the course of Justice by attempting to have him wrongly convicted on false evidence. I dont see anywhere how they have yet, as you put it, been brought to task.

The only evidence I have to go on is the article, which says that one of the guards spoke to a bouncer for a minute and a half.
We can't see the footage or hear what may have been said so I don't know the reason why the guard would have pushed the guy. It doesn't seem like they got out of the squad car and cracked the first few available heads.. so there was some exchange of some sort the details of which we are not privy to.

Yes, I concede it does not show they've been taken to task but they have been named and shamed in the article..presumably the victim could take a case against them if he wished.

I'm not really on either party's side here to be honest
Its one thing filming say a protest rally or the gardai making an arrest but what was this guy hoping to achieve ?

I was at Smithfield Horse Market a few months back and photographed an exchange between the gardai and the traders. I also photographed the infamous photos of the horse getting intimate with the guard
There was a guy videoing there too - of the many gardai there none of them attacked any of us or tried to confiscate the footage. They were not breaking the law then so perhaps that fuels the argument that they objected to this guy filming because they were doing something they shouldn't.

Absolutely they shouldn't have lied to cover their own arses but this is a problem that is pervasive within all levels of Irish society.
The OP is lumping all gardai in together or implying that this is their institutional stance - 'film us and we'll batter you'. I don't believe that to be accurate

Scioch · 10-07-2012 03:50PM

oddman2 wrote: »

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't condemn stuff like this when it happens.

It means you shouldnt condemn the entire service. If a teacher hits a kid there is no public outcry about how teachers are thugs and scum. Why is it always different for the Gardai ?

Laneyh · 10-07-2012 03:53PM

AEDIC wrote: »

Silly comment imho, however..

Unless I am mistaken, this thread is talking about the actions of two specific gardai, perhaps you are a little confused due to you not actually reading the article maybe?

I read the article and it didn't cause any confusion thanks.
It is about a specific case and specific garda's actions but further in the thread other cases were cited that mentioned gardai using force towards people filming them.

Ok, if the gardai were using undue force in the arrest of his friend.. this man was entitled to film that and should be able to do so without reprisal.
Perhaps the mention of pepper spray was a bit silly but honestly if they feel threatened by someone filming / shouting at them whatever I can't see them doing nothing about it.

Scioch · 10-07-2012 03:53PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Some of the people they deal with not all! :rolleyes:
They would do well to remember that.
You are turning this into a Garda V's the People war while you accuse the OP of doing the same.

The OP started the thread by accusing the Gardai as a whole of behaving in this way. I'm disagreeing with him so how the hell can I be of the same opinion ??

How am I turning it into the people vs Gardai by arguing that you cant denounce all Gardai because of the actions of a couple ?

yore · 10-07-2012 03:57PM

Laneyh wrote: »

How much better a society would we be if when you see some trouble your first instinct is not to record it but to offer assistance to the Gardai ?

Help them do what exactly? Start throwing random digs at anyone you see a Guard throwing a dig at? Nowhere does it suggest that the Guards were under pressure or in trouble. In fact, the one who committed the assault had enough time to go over and ask the injured party for ID. It doesn't seem like he was struggling to hold down and arrest a gang of violent thugs at the time.
I would also imagine that videoing it would actually be of assistance. If I were walking down the street and some randomer decided to assault me or punch me, I'd be happy to find out that someone had happened to video it. Videoing incidents is actually of great help to getting justice....in fact it can also be used to exonerate people from false accusations and prevent them from getting bogus convictions....it can even from false accusations made the Guards.....if only I had some evidence of such a story....
Your argument, while maybe sounding great on first glance, makes no sense. It's a bit like starting your argument saying "how much better global society would be if there was no starving babies".

staker · 10-07-2012 04:01PM

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, but thankfully imagination isn't something that counts as evidence in a court. This diagram helpfully explains it.
http://www.blackandwhitecat.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/dreams.gif

If you can't argue your point without resorting to the childish insinuations don't bother.
I never condoned the Garda actions in breaking the man's arm,nor never would but as another poster alluded to, why was it his first reaction to video the proceedings instead of standing in to help or ignoring the whole lot?

MagicSean · 10-07-2012 04:04PM

Just to clarify some things. There are cases when a Garda can prevent you from filming. These would be limited in most cases to incidents were your filming is contributing to a breach of the peace. A simple example would be if the Gardaí were dealing with two people who had been fighting and one of them was getting very aggravated by you filming them.

What you should be aware of if filming the Gardaí arresting someone is that they may (and, in fact, should) seize your phone as the footage would be classed as evidence which the defence would be entitled to in any court proceedings.

Dr Turk Turkelton · 10-07-2012 04:09PM

How will these Guuards evidence in court ever be taken seriously again after they have been proved to have lied under oath?

I'm only asking the question as I'm sure any defense soliciter would be failing in their duties to their client by not bringing this up any time these Guards give evidence?

Nodin · 10-07-2012 04:09PM

staker wrote: »

If you can't argue your point without resorting to the childish insinuations don't bother.
I never condoned the Garda actions in breaking the man's arm,nor never would but as another poster alluded to, why was it his first reaction to video the proceedings instead of standing in to help or ignoring the whole lot?

It doesn't matter why he was videoing anything, because thats not a crime. There was no situation to "help" with, and so why would he. In addition

And it demonstrated that Garda O’Connor spoke to the doormen for a minute and a half after arriving at the scene. Addressing Garda O’Connor, Mr Twomey said; “it shows that you then went to my client; asked him for ID, which he produced as the footage shows; and then 30 seconds later, you push him - violently”.

“It shows that over the course of 100 seconds, you pushed, slapped or dragged people on nine separate occasions and that the only person who was agitated was you; that you arrived and the violence started. And when my client did something small like take video footage, you broke his arm, although I accept probably not deliberately,” Mr Twomey said.

While the gardai had initially indicated the matter could be dealt with by way of adult caution, it was Mr Daly’s “decision to make a complaint to the Garda Ombudsman that his arm had been broken without reason” that led to him being charged with the offence. Gareth Howard had never been charged, Mr Twomey added.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/judge-appalled-by-video-footage-after-man-says-garda-broke-his-arm-1-4036016

So not only did they lie to the court about what happened, it appears they brought charges in order to intimidate yer man.

Scioch · 10-07-2012 04:09PM

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

For such a small police force in terms of numbers, there does appear to be an alarming number of 'incidents' - such as down in Wafurd, this case, the lad getting the shyte kicked out of him in Dublin - which show the old 'heavy gang' spirit us still alive and well in sections of the GS.

Whats the alarming number ? Where did you see these numbers ? I'm 30 years old and in all my life I have never come across this "heavy gang" spirit in the Gardai. I'd bet my life the overwhelming majority of people who have have been absolute arseholes who intentionally try to illicit that type of reaction.

Gardai spend their time dealing with a lot of trouble makers, drunks, anti social types and aggressive people. People who like nothing more than to torment them and try get a reaction of out them. So a few incidents have to be expected. Granted Gardai should not behave in that way regardless but if they do its not indicative of the general attitude of the entire service.

MagicSean · 10-07-2012 04:12PM

Nodin wrote: »

It doesn't matter why he was videoing anything, because thats not a crime. There was no situation to "help" with, and so why would he. In addition

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/judge-appalled-by-video-footage-after-man-says-garda-broke-his-arm-1-4036016

So not only did they lie to the court about what happened, it appears they brought charges in order to intimidate yer man.

An adult caution is only available if you accept your responsability in what you are alleged to do. If you decide to fight it then you cannot avail of the adult caution.

Judge appalled at video of Gardai

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