Are We an Immature and Irresponsible Society?

Lisandro · 09-07-2012 04:12PM

Higher wrote: »

It seems in every aspect of Irish life we come across as immature and irresponsible...

I see. You've taken an isolated example of the Taoiseach saying something stupid, a generalised Western banking problem and anecdotal experience of Irish drinking culture (and somehow contended that these are distinctly Irish problems, as if this never happens in other European countries) and extended it to make a broad judgement on the character of the Irish people without anything really in between.

Tell me, do you always judge entire nationalities based on actions of minorities? Do you think that the Polish and Ukrainians are a racist people because of xenophobic thugs assaulting fans at Euro 2012? Do you think Greece is a violent nation because they had riots when their country went into financial meltdown? Or are vast generalisations only OK when they're about Ireland?

twinQuins wrote: »

Pointing out that there's little sense of social responsibility and that 'idolisation of the cute hoor' are integral parts of Irish culture is not a "sweeping generalisation".

You do realise that what you've just posted is in every respect a sweeping generalisation, don't you?

Dravokivich · 09-07-2012 04:16PM

Higher wrote: »

When you compare us to the French or the Germans we really do come across as irresponsible children.

So what do you want of us;

-Classy snobs
-Efficient workforce?

Shenshen · 09-07-2012 04:19PM

Higher wrote: »

It seems in every aspect of Irish life we come across as immature and irresponsible. Our Taoiseach cries to newspapers of being bullied, our economy is in tatters because of reckless bankers, we are one of the worst nations for getting drunk. When you compare us to the French or the Germans we really do come across as irresponsible children.
In how many countries can you see hoardes of adults in their 30s falling around the place on a Saturday night? I've never seen a German girl squatting down and taking a piss in the open at a festival in Germany.
When was the last time you heard about a certain nationality being banned from a hostel?
Should we be ashamed of ourselves? Is it time we stop blaming everyone else for our problems and take responsibility?
J.R Tolkein basing the hobbits on Irish people makes a lot of sense right now..

Don't beat yourselves up over your politicians... The former German chancellor Schroeder once refused to give interviews to the news corps of one German TV channel, because they had speculated about him dieing his hair.

The drinking on the other hand is getting a little much.

bluecode · 09-07-2012 04:33PM

We are an immature and irresponsible society. But whose fault is it?

The British of course, more specifically the English. 800 years of oppression yada, yada, yada.:rolleyes:

Therein lies the problem. Our inability to take resonsibility for our actions. It's always someone else's fault.

I think our real problem is the lack of a true Irish identity. It's seem to me there are 32 different identities. People's counties seem more important than their Irishness.

I am pie · 09-07-2012 04:34PM

We have a very poor relationship with alcohol and don't seem to be doing much to address the problem. Our political system is immature in that it is dominated by parish pump or outdated civil war politics, riddled with chancers and corrupt gombeens.

On the plus side though, our relationship with the UK has improved greatly, which can be seen as a sign of more mature relationships developing, we've adopted a mature approach to attempting to resolve our debt crisis (might not be the best approach, but we have implemented cuts and attempted to be responsible).

If we could sort out the politicians and calm down on the pints we'd be fine.

09-07-2012 04:36PM

bluecode wrote: »

We are an immature and irresponsible society. But whose fault is it?

The British of course, more specifically the English. 800 years of oppression yada, yada, yada.:rolleyes:

Therein lies the problem. Our inability to take resonsibility for our actions. It's always someone else's fault.

I think our real problem is the lack of a true Irish identity. It's seem to me there are 32 different identities. People's counties seem more important than their Irishness.

:pac:
That would put a smile on the heart of every true Englishman.

golden lane · 09-07-2012 04:38PM

RVP 11 wrote: »

:pac:
That would put a smile on the heart of every true Englishman.

where would you find one of them.......???

Sea Filly · 09-07-2012 04:39PM

I assume you're including yourself, OP?

09-07-2012 04:39PM

golden lane wrote: »

where would you find one of them.......???

Ireland of course.:pac:

golden lane · 09-07-2012 04:42PM

RVP 11 wrote: »

Ireland of course.:pac:

yes, the the english in the uk......have more important things to think about.......true englishman....is well down the list...

CrabRevolution · 09-07-2012 05:00PM

bluecode wrote: »

We are an immature and irresponsible society. But whose fault is it?

The British of course, more specifically the English. 800 years of oppression yada, yada, yada.

Therein lies the problem. Our inability to take resonsibility for our actions. It's always someone else's fault.

I think our real problem is the lack of a true Irish identity. It's seem to me there are 32 different identities. People's counties seem more important than their Irishness.

Irish counties only really exist in terms of Reg plates, County councils and the GAA. This doesnt hinder national pride or Irishness in any way. We have a unitary government with control over everything and counties have close to no power or identity.

Meanwhile the country that many people here fall over themselves in their attempts to praise it in every conceivable way (Germany) is hugely divided.
It has 16 different states, each with it's own flag, government, education system etc. They have a great degree of autonomy and identity, with many Germans seeing themselves as Bayern, Bremen, Sachsen etc. people first, and Germans second.

Ouchette · 09-07-2012 05:31PM

daltonmd wrote: »

I lived in Germany for ten years and never worked with a German who drank during work hours, never seen beer in German canteens, even attending the Munich Beer festival (for ten years in a row) I never saw the Germans behaving like the Irish do.

It could be the case that it was this way many years ago, but as with every country, health and safety legislation banned this a long time ago.

That's odd. I lived there less than a year and saw it in both places where I worked. The big multinational in Heidelberg had it on tap in the canteen and the little tiny business in Bonn had the drinks trolley out during working hours every time someone joined/left/had a birthday and an almighty 2-day summer party piss-up.

Also, one of my first memories of Germany was being horrified when my 14 year old exchange partner and her friends squatted for a piss in the street after demonstrating the local drinking rituals.

crazy cabbage · 09-07-2012 05:43PM

Yes we (being western societies) are. Currently reading No Logo and getting more and more disalusioned with Society the more i get through it. Yes we are immature and irresponsible.

dodderangler · 09-07-2012 05:45PM

Go to Germany then if your gonna sit moanin about as a nation then go!!
Il sleep better being proud to be Irish

daltonmd · 09-07-2012 06:05PM

Ouchette wrote: »

That's odd. I lived there less than a year and saw it in both places where I worked. The big multinational in Heidelberg had it on tap in the canteen and the little tiny business in Bonn had the drinks trolley out during working hours every time someone joined/left/had a birthday and an almighty 2-day summer party piss-up.

Also, one of my first memories of Germany was being horrified when my 14 year old exchange partner and her friends squatted for a piss in the street after demonstrating the local drinking rituals.

That to me is different then "Germans have drinks in the morning and at lunch and have beers in their office canteen".

And do small companies in Ireland have office parties, Xmas parties in their offices - yes they do, that I have experienced here. Many small business's couldn't afford hotels or venues.

As I said, I lived in Munich for ten years, attended the Beer fest for ten years in a row and the only people behaving in a drunken, pissy manner were the Irish - although I will say that at that time there was very little, if any violence, but the bingedrinking was certainly present.

I married a German, had my kids in Germany, attended numerous weddings, christenings, parties and the like and never witnessed a Germn woman squatting on the street in full public view having a wee.

twinQuins · 09-07-2012 06:36PM

Lisandro wrote: »

[...] You do realise that what you've just posted is in every respect a sweeping generalisation, don't you?

Obviously I used a bad choice of words. To me, the implication of Ellis Dee's post was that "sweeping generalisations" are generalisations that don't hold true for most cases.

In such a case, while what I said was a generalisation (as I can't poll the opinion of every person in the country) it is one that generally holds true.

But I'm sure you already knew that and just wanted to get some thanks for being a pedantic smartass.

guitarzero · 09-07-2012 06:52PM

To an extent I have to agree with the OP. In the last 10 years I've noticed how childish Irish people tend to come across to our neighbours. Ways of interacting, opinions, spoilt behaviour, intellectual deficits, lack of appreciation of more finer things in the areas of writers, art, music.

But the Irish sense of humour is probably the envy of all.

Shryke · 09-07-2012 07:06PM

FatherLen wrote: »

is that true???

No it's not. They were based on English country bumpkins if anything. Nothing to do with the Irish.

vamos! · 09-07-2012 07:11PM

daltonmd wrote: »

That to me is different then "Germans have drinks in the morning and at lunch and have beers in their office canteen".

And do small companies in Ireland have office parties, Xmas parties in their offices - yes they do, that I have experienced here. Many small business's couldn't afford hotels or venues.

As I said, I lived in Munich for ten years, attended the Beer fest for ten years in a row and the only people behaving in a drunken, pissy manner were the Irish - although I will say that at that time there was very little, if any violence, but the bingedrinking was certainly present.

I married a German, had my kids in Germany, attended numerous weddings, christenings, parties and the like and never witnessed a Germn woman squatting on the street in full public view having a wee.

I have witnessed my fair share of drunk people in Germany. The younger generation are fairly similar ti our own teenagers to be honest. Some issue involving binge drinking (or coma drinking as the Germans call it) is reported in the papers most days. German teachers also speak of the same lack of respect and parents sticking up for little Johnny no matter what. Society is changing and becoming worse but this selfishness and irresponsibility seems to be more than just an Irish phenomenon.

Laneyh · 09-07-2012 07:34PM

It's possible we are a little irresponsible / immature but I think maybe our bigger failing is that we are very individualistic

By that I mean we're not really socially minded
if you spend any time in other European countries society seems a bit more self regulating

Maybe because of our size we just tend to do our own thing thinking 'I'm only one person nobody will mind if I sneak in here '

I've never seen an Irish person queue for anything unless they absolutely have to
If there's a chance to sneak in free somewhere we'll take it
Get on public transport without a ticket etc.

It's endearing up to a point but it can be bad too. Maybe if we thought a bit less as individuals and a bit more as a collective we could actually stage some effective sizeable protests against things like austerity measures.

It would be worse if we were all boring automotons though so maybe I should be careful what I wish for

thebaz · 09-07-2012 07:37PM

Higher wrote: »

It seems in every aspect of Irish life we come across as immature and irresponsible. Our Taoiseach cries to newspapers of being bullied, our economy is in tatters because of reckless bankers, we are one of the worst nations for getting drunk. When you compare us to the French or the Germans we really do come across as irresponsible children.

In how many countries can you see hoardes of adults in their 30s falling around the place on a Saturday night? I've never seen a German girl squatting down and taking a piss in the open at a festival in Germany.

When was the last time you heard about a certain nationality being banned from a hostel?

Should we be ashamed of ourselves? Is it time we stop blaming everyone else for our problems and take responsibility?

J.R Tolkein basing the hobbits on Irish people makes a lot of sense right now..

then again our football supporters are noted as being the best in the world - never heard of Irish supporters beating the crap out of locals

Lisandro · 09-07-2012 07:48PM

twinQuins wrote: »

Obviously I used a bad choice of words. To me, the implication of Ellis Dee's post was that "sweeping generalisations" are generalisations that don't hold true for most cases.

Not necessarily. Sweeping generalisations are general statements about a group/collective based on the behaviour of a small section you happen to have encountered. Regardless of whether that generalisation is correct or not, the reasoning is essentially anecdotal, hence fallacious.

twinQuins wrote: »

In such a case, while what I said was a generalisation (as I can't poll the opinion of every person in the country) it is one that generally holds true.

Please explain how it is generally true. Or is saying that a vague statement about social responsibility and cute-hoorism "is generally true" a convenient substitute for having to back up your prejudices?

twinQuins wrote: »

But I'm sure you already knew that and just wanted to get some thanks for being a pedantic smartass.

Why do some people on this place have to make these petty, personal snarks at posters who call them out on something? You don't even know me.

twinQuins · 09-07-2012 08:27PM

"Prejudices", that's a new one; I don't know you but you know me, apparently.

Okay, if that's how you want to play you can play by yourself.

Rawhead · 09-07-2012 08:38PM

I take it no one here has spent any time around U.S. spring break resorts. Go to Lake Tahoe, Myrtle beach, Cancun, San Padre island and see what binge drinking is.

All countries young people blow off steam. The Germans might not binge drink like us but they have a vile obsession with feces and the French are a nation of cowards.

Nodin · 09-07-2012 09:08PM

Rawhead wrote: »

I take it no one here has spent any time around U.S. spring break resorts. Go to Lake Tahoe, Myrtle beach, Cancun, San Padre island and see what binge drinking is.

All countries young people blow off steam. The Germans might not binge drink like us but they have a vile obsession with feces and the French are a nation of cowards.

Theres nothing worse than people trying to counter stupid generalisations with other stupid generalisations.

Lisandro · 09-07-2012 09:29PM

twinQuins wrote: »

"Prejudices", that's a new one; I don't know you but you know me, apparently.

Eh, no. I don't know you. But we do have a name for negative critical judgemental stereotypes made about large groups of individuals connected by an arbitrary link such as nationality. It's called a prejudice, hence my usage of the word.

twinQuins wrote: »

Okay, if that's how you want to play you can play by yourself.

Do you really have to act like that? No, seriously, do you really have such a problem with someone challenging your opinion that you refuse to engage with them beyond angled personal jabs?

Blondini · 09-07-2012 09:31PM

Rawhead wrote: »

The Germans might not binge drink like us but they have a vile obsession with feces

They have a which with what now? WTF?

Pottler · 09-07-2012 09:40PM

Blondini wrote: »

They have a which with what now? WTF?

They do, they love their poo. Not sure why, but it seems to pop up an awful lot in conversation, ie, how often, colour, texture. It's sort of like their version of our "the weather":D well, not as much, but they do like talking about poo a lot. they even came up with the expression "stundscheisser" for someone who takes too long doing it.

Blondini · 09-07-2012 09:44PM

Pottler wrote: »

They do, they love their poo. Not sure why, but it seems to pop up an awful lot in conversation, ie, how often, colour, texture. It's sort of like their version of our "the weather":D well, not as much, but they do like talking about poo a lot. they even came up with the expression "stundscheisser" for someone who takes too long doing it.

Thanks for that (I think)

Pottler · 09-07-2012 09:48PM

Blondini wrote: »

Thanks for that (I think)

yeah, it is a bit weird, but the weirdness goes waay deeper when you get to know them.

Are We an Immature and Irresponsible Society?

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