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Just a thought...

24567…16

Comments

  • #32
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    endacl wrote: »
    Actions. Vile and reprehensible actions. And a long established pattern of refusing to accept the consequences of those actions.

    Exactly. So why church bash on an atheist forum? You might aswell slag off Sega on a Nintendo forum! Its got feck all to do with the churchs beliefs, its their actions that are so wrong. There are millions of Christians out there who despise the church. Being Christian / believing in god, does not necessarily mean you are part of the church.


  • #33
    frozenfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,682 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    It's not the churches beliefs?! Oh sweet lord jesus zeus thor mary are you being serious?


  • #34
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,447 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    endacl wrote: »
    Actions. Vile and reprehensible actions. And a long established pattern of refusing to accept the consequences of those actions.

    Exactly. So why church bash on an atheist forum? You might aswell slag off Sega on a Nintendo forum! Its got feck all to do with the churchs beliefs, its their actions that are so wrong. There are millions of Christians out there who despise the church. Being Christian / believing in god, does not necessarily mean you are part of the church.
    Simple. The belief provided the framework to build the structure.

    There's nothing inherently wrong with bacteria, but the resulting rotten tooth can be a real problem. Belief in a deity is primitive anachronism, and has no place in the modern world. I've no problem with individual delusion, but when they gather in an organised structure, they effect other people's lives.

    It's long past time that the rotten church was pulled.


  • #35
    18AD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭18AD


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Church bashing while at the same time promoting atheism can make all athiests look like church bashers to the average joe. You should leave your church bashing for another forum so as not to associate the two.

    What has your hatred for the church got to do with a belief in god or lack thereof? Do you hate the church because of their beliefs or because of their actions? I'm sure their are plenty of Muslim pedophiles out there, Jewish ones, Buddhist ones and of course there are probably plenty of atheist pedophiles too.

    What makes you think I hate the church? I don't really expend any dedicated amount of emotional/mental energy toward it. You have to admit the whole thing is a pretty silly enterprise, no? Go on.

    I just think nothing should be free from satire. Seriousness is the worst vice.


  • #36
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    18AD wrote: »
    What makes you think I hate the church? I don't really expend any dedicated amount of emotional/mental energy toward it. You have to admit the whole thing is a pretty silly enterprise, no? Go on.

    I just think nothing should be free from satire. Seriousness is the worst vice.

    Feckin hate the church myself and sorry if I said you did. I'm just trying to answer the OP's question. It would seem to a bystander that most atheists hate the church. I just dont see what not believing in a god has to do with not liking a club for peados. Believing in god, the teachings of Jesus or the bible does not mean you are part of the church. They are two different things.


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  • #37
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Well to be fair, it comes across for numerous reasons (which we've answered before).

    1) This is a largely Catholic country. It's had a huge impact on the country and has caused a lot of controversies over the last few years, especially with the amount of child abuse claims have come out, and it's views on homosexuality, contraception and so on.

    2) A lot of this comes up in the news. In this forum you have a lot of politically minded people who have an interest in such things, and so will discuss it. Even with the recent poster Rasheed, it was shown the vast majority of posters here will take part in a good debate, as long as the 'believer' is willing too as well.

    3) We actually talk about a lot of religions, but it's easier to discuss things when we have a discussion to base it on.

    4) It's so freaking easy to point out the numerous flaws in Christianity, especially Catholicism.


  • #38
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    endacl wrote: »
    Simple. The belief provided the framework to build the structure.

    There's nothing inherently wrong with bacteria, but the resulting rotten tooth can be a real problem. Belief in a deity is primitive anachronism, and has no place in the modern world. I've no problem with individual delusion, but when they gather in an organised structure, they effect other people's lives.

    It's long past time that the rotten church was pulled.

    First of all, a truly modern world would be one where people are free to believe or not believe whatever they want. Saying something "has no place" is a backward statement.

    Secondly, I dont agree that belief in God / Jesus set the ground work for the RCC to become a pedophile ring. There are peado rings the world over that have nothing to do with religion. I believe that people with pedophile tendencies joined the church to exploit the position of power and child access that it granted priests. The vast majority of priests are good people. You will find that pedophiles will often settle in areas that have plenty of kids (schools nearby, playgrounds etc...). Parole conditions for the convicted stipulate that they must avoid these types of areas, so it is typical behavior for these types of people to seek out vulnerable people. My point is that the RCC was not set up to abuse children, rather, abusers used it to abuse children.


  • #39
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    I'm still trying to figure how writing about the silliness of religion in general on the internet can be described as "militant". Are posters on the Beer/Wine/Spirits forum militant alcoholics? Is the film forum militantly anti-book?


  • #40
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Sarky wrote: »
    I'm still trying to figure how writing about the silliness of religion in general on the internet can be described as "militant". Are posters on the Beer/Wine/Spirits forum militant alcoholics? Is the film forum militantly anti-book?

    If we're what passes for militant atheists then one would imagine the world has very little to fear from militant atheism...
    No one seems to apply the word 'militant' to religious folk though. Surely if the same standard was applied to the religious then anyone who attended church or talked about their faith openly would also be 'militant'?


  • #41
    paddyzk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭paddyzk


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    First of all, a truly modern world would be one where people are free to believe or not believe whatever they want. Saying something "has no place" is a backward statement.

    Secondly, I dont agree that belief in God / Jesus set the ground work for the RCC to become a pedophile ring. There are peado rings the world over that have nothing to do with religion. I believe that people with pedophile tendencies joined the church to exploit the position of power and child access that it granted priests. The vast majority of priests are good people. You will find that pedophiles will often settle in areas that have plenty of kids (schools nearby, playgrounds etc...). Parole conditions for the convicted stipulate that they must avoid these types of areas, so it is typical behavior for these types of people to seek out vulnerable people. My point is that the RCC was not set up to abuse children, rather, abusers used it to abuse children.

    You seem to know quiet a lot about that sir.


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  • #42
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,558 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Exactly. So why church bash on an atheist forum? You might aswell slag off Sega on a Nintendo forum! Its got feck all to do with the churchs beliefs, its their actions that are so wrong. There are millions of Christians out there who despise the church. Being Christian / believing in god, does not necessarily mean you are part of the church.


    Which is exactly why we don't post these things on the Christianity forum. It's the church, not its followers that cause most of the harm, so we shouldn't go out of our way to annoy Christians who still follow the church. There's a difference between the church, and it's followers. The Christianity forum is for the followers. Here, we can discuss the church from a more objective view.


  • #43
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Exactly. So why church bash on an atheist forum?

    What forum do you think would be more appropriate for non-believers to discuss the problems and dangers of religious belief?

    Your question is like asking why bash dog fighting on the animal welfare forum since the regular posters on that forum don't go to dog fights :rolleyes:


  • #44
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    First of all, a truly modern world would be one where people are free to believe or not believe whatever they want. Saying something "has no place" is a backward statement.

    Just because you are free to believe something doesn't mean it is a good idea that you should. You are free to believe that black people are a violent criminals or that the Jews are secretly trying to take over the world. Doesn't mean that such backwards and damaging beliefs have any place in a modern society.
    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Secondly, I dont agree that belief in God / Jesus set the ground work for the RCC to become a pedophile ring.

    Christianity is based around the notion of salvation, specifically salvation by following particular teachings and avoiding wrong doing as defined by the religion. Such a set up, very common among religions, gives any organisation dictating to the masses what is or isn't the correct way to behave particular power and authority over believers. This power and authority leads very easily to abuse, as seen by the unquestioning trust that people put in the Catholic church that allowed the church to carry out the massive cover up of sexual abuse.


  • #45
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Just because you are free to believe something doesn't mean it is a good idea that you should. You are free to believe that black people are a violent criminals or that the Jews are secretly trying to take over the world. Doesn't mean that such backwards and damaging beliefs have any place in a modern society.

    Yes but you said believing in a deity has no place in the modern world. You cant go around telling people what they can and cant believe, that is exactly what organized religion does. Believing in a God is not a problem. Believing in / following the Catholic church is the problem.


  • #46
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Yes but you said believing in a deity has no place in the modern world. You cant go around telling people what they can and cant believe, that is exactly what organized religion does. Believing in a God is not a problem. Believing in / following the Catholic church is the problem.

    Believing in God is a problem because such a belief requires compliance with the "will of God", ie the nonsense some priests and warlords made up a few thousand years ago.


  • #47
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Christianity is based around the notion of salvation, specifically salvation by following particular teachings and avoiding wrong doing as defined by the religion. Such a set up, very common among religions, gives any organisation dictating to the masses what is or isn't the correct way to behave particular power and authority over believers. This power and authority leads very easily to abuse, as seen by the unquestioning trust that people put in the Catholic church that allowed the church to carry out the massive cover up of sexual abuse.

    You could say the same thing about modern day atheism, which is becoming more and more organized. Say in 500 hundred years when most people are atheist, should we start bashing atheism because a small number of them are pedophiles?

    And what about other religions? Do they have the same problems with child abuse? Does Islam and Buddhism have the same problems?

    Id imagine every organization has problems like this. Its just more pronounced with the RCC because of the sheer size. Is it the biggest organization in the world?

    Do schools have a place in the modern world if a teacher abuses a pupil and the school covers it up? Same problem, smaller scale...


  • #48
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Believing in God is a problem because such a belief requires compliance with the "will of God", ie the nonsense some priests and warlords made up a few thousand years ago.

    Nope your wrong there. You can believe in god, have a friendship with god, talk, pray ect with god. Again, the church is the one preaching the "will of god".


  • #49
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    You could say the same thing about modern day atheism, which is becoming more and more organized. Say in 500 hundred years when most people are atheist, should we start bashing atheism because a small number of them are pedophiles?
    If there is an atheist organisation which covers up abuses, and moves abusers around the place, yes.
    And what about other religions? Do they have the same problems with child abuse? Does Islam and Buddhism have the same problems?
    Islam actually has a bit of a work around for its morality for prostitution. I don't know how common this is, but the work around is like this: The guy will pay a fee to marry the woman for however long, and at the end the marriage is ended. Isn't exactly the catholic church, but it isn't exactly following the religion in a particularly honest fashion.

    It also says that muslims should be like Muhammad, who I think most here would agree was not really the model man.

    Buddhism? Can't say I've heard anything bad on the matter where child abuse came in to it. Someone may come in and point out examples though.
    Id imagine every organization has problems like this. Its just more pronounced with the RCC because of the sheer size. Is it the biggest organization in the world?
    Doesn't justify moving abusers around the place to hide the abuse.
    Do schools have a place in the modern world if a teacher abuses a pupil and the school covers it up? Same problem, smaller scale...
    The school is fine if the teacher is brought up on it, and not merely moved to another school under the influence of someone in the Dept of Education.
    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Nope your wrong there. You can believe in god, have a friendship with god, talk, pray ect with god. Again, the church is the one preaching the "will of god".
    One can talk to god. He talks back, you may have to visit a mental asylum.


  • #50
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Nope your wrong there. You can believe in god, have a friendship with god, talk, pray ect with god. Again, the church is the one preaching the "will of god".

    What's the ratio of agnostics to religious do you think?

    Or the ratio of religious Vs theist irreligious?


  • #51
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    What's the ratio of agnostics to religious do you think?

    Or the ratio of religious Vs theist irreligious?

    Wouldn't have a clue. Id imagine more and more people every day, while still believing in God / Jesus, are seeing the RCC for what it is.


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  • #52
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Wouldn't have a clue. Id imagine more and more people every day, while still believing in God / Jesus, are seeing the RCC for what it is.

    I could understand the complaint that those who believe in god and don't have a religion are being lumped in with those who are religious if it was 50/50 - even if it was 60/40 it would make sense even within the context of general discussion not to make the assumption that theist = religion...but I suspect the vast majority of theists also align themselves with a particular religion or branch of religion ie christianity so expecting posters to constantly add a posting equivalent of an addendum to every statement about religion for the sake of the [proportionally] handful of irreligious theists seems rather semantic and unnecessary.


  • #53
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    You could say the same thing about modern day atheism, which is becoming more and more organized.

    Which atheism group requires compliance to a moral system under risk of eternal punishment if you don't comply?
    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Say in 500 hundred years when most people are atheist, should we start bashing atheism because a small number of them are pedophiles?
    Yes if the atheism group is covering up the sexual assults by abusing its self appointed authority as moral guardians.
    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    And what about other religions? Do they have the same problems with child abuse? Does Islam and Buddhism have the same problems?
    Yes, Islam particularly which again acts as an authority for morality that cannot be questioned.
    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Do schools have a place in the modern world if a teacher abuses a pupil and the school covers it up? Same problem, smaller scale...

    It isn't the same problem because I'm unaware of any school, other than religious schools, that claim to represent the moral authority of the creator of the universe.


  • #54
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Nope your wrong there. You can believe in god, have a friendship with god, talk, pray ect with god. Again, the church is the one preaching the "will of god".

    Which "god"? You believe in a god that makes no moral requirement on human behavior? That certainly isn't the Christian god or any of the Abrahamic religions.


  • #55
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I could understand the complaint that those who believe in god and don't have a religion are being lumped in with those who are religious if it was 50/50 - even if it was 60/40 it would make sense even within the context of general discussion not to make the assumption that theist = religion...but I suspect the vast majority of theists also align themselves with a particular religion or branch of religion ie christianity so expecting posters to constantly add a posting equivalent of an addendum to every statement about religion for the sake of the [proportionally] handful of irreligious theists seems rather semantic and unnecessary.

    Well what would be the ratio of atheists / militant atheists?


  • #56
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    Going against the current train of thought but why is the catholic church so interested in me? Why are they allowed lobby against my rights? I can't marry, I can't adopt in a relationship, if I were raped I couldn't get an abortion. Their pointy hatted red shoed leader has on numerous occasions addressed the world in relation to how my very being is "intrinsically evil", I'm not going to quote here but I'm pretty sure, according to him, my actions will end the human race, sorry guys!

    I'm also pretty sure atheists destroy families in his books.

    So the Catholic Church has affected my quality of life, as has been covered, and are still today trying their damnedest to ensure I don't get the same treatment their members do in this country or others.

    Why am I militant for taking issue with that? Why is there something wrong with me questioning a system where millions of people in this country give power to a bigot to spew nonsense they don't even believe which is targeted at people like me, you, and ironically them, as religion has a huge presence in the rule of this country.

    I don't think it's a case I shouldn't speak of religion because I'm not religious, I'm pretty sure that religion is ensuring I do speak of it because it won't leave me, or anyone else who didn't ask for it, the fcuk alone.


  • #57
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Well what would be the ratio of atheists / militant atheists?

    Depends on your definition of a militant atheist, I guess. Bizarrely, more common than not, it seems to be applied to those who dare to post on a forum dedicated to them...as opposed to the theistic militants who have to go around blowing themselves up/bombing things/starting wars/etc to earn the label.

    For some odd reason theists just discussing their views/proselytizing/rubbishing atheism is viewed as just them doing their thang but atheists doing the same are "militant"... :confused::confused::confused:


  • #58
    Azure_sky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭Azure_sky


    Probably the same reason why American atheists poke fun/ focus their energy on Evangelicals rather than Catholics. It's rationale to focus ones energy on the dominant force. No point criticising Mithras.


  • #59
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    wonderfulname wrote: »
    I can't marry, I can't adopt in a relationship, if I were raped I couldn't get an abortion.

    Its the state getting in your way though.


  • #60
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    wonderfulname wrote: »
    I can't marry, I can't adopt in a relationship, if I were raped I couldn't get an abortion.

    Its the state getting in your way though.

    And the relationship between church and state in Ireland until very recently was...

    The influence of the church upon the voting public until very recently was...

    Come on now ted, if you want to play the fool the state is behind every inequality in Iran too, and it has nothing at all to do with religous influence...


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  • #61
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Its the state getting in your way though.

    Which has been directly interfered with by the Catholic Church and the religious.

    So much for keeping opinions to yourselves really.


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