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Was Michelle de Bruin our greatest Olympian? Eamonn Coughlan says yes

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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 449 ✭✭Pantsface


    CDfm wrote: »
    Absolutely, and you are entitled to be sceptical.

    As an issue it transcends sport. And,a reasonable person might think that , if there is a doubt then no one should be entitled to take away her good name.

    Really, you don't have to like her or admire her , but you should want the procedures and practices to be above board.[/QUOTE]


    Where were they "below board"?

    What did they do? Did they tamper with her urine sample? Is that what you're implying?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    One minute you're asking about the competition when Sonia was forced to change kit; the next minute you seem to have all the details. I'm a little perplexed.

    Sonia didn't meet Nic Bideau until after the 1996 games were over.

    The issue over the kit has been well documented. It was more a power struggle between AAI and the OCI, with Sonia a pawn in the middle.

    According to the Olympic charter, the Athletic competitions of the Olympic games are conducted under the auspices of the world governing body, the IAAF, and the rules and regulations of the IAAF apply at all times. Now, AAI are affiliated to the IAAF, and have the right to decide the equipment their athletes (to wit, Sonia, amongst others) wear. But the OCI signed a contract with a rival company and forced Sonia to change literally at the last second.

    None of this was Sonia's fault.


    .
    Pantsface wrote: »
    Thats fair enough.
    Pantsface wrote: »



    I think she should have had the cop to wear the correct kit in the first place. Its simple really

    I thought that you had accepted Pherekydes explanation above as you agreed with him and thanked his post which said "None of this was Sonia's fault. ".
    Pantsface wrote: »


    Where were they "below board"?

    What did they do? Did they tamper with her urine sample? Is that what you're implying?

    In the context of this thread , we are asked if we agree that Michelle is Ireland's Greatest Olympian and she must be if we are following the Olympic Commitee's rules.

    I cited the Sonia O'Sullivan affair as an example of something that caused me concern and the culture within the sporting organization's and a situation which may have been demeaning to an athlete. There were ,of course,other very serious issue's in swimming too.

    So what I am saying is that the sports organizations have not been beyond reproach in the past and if there are issue's concerning a sample then that is the type of organization's you are dealing with. In 2008 , the current Minister for Justice ,Alan Shatter commented on the failure of Swim Ireland to vet over half it's staff and coaches.
    "It is an unforgivable act of negligence, especially in respect of events in the public knowledge which have led to prosecutions," he said.


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/swim-group-in-abuse-scandal-has-vetted-less-than-half-staff-1423212.html


    I don't think it is unreasonable to question this and others don't either and we are looking at how the organisations behaved in the past.

    How can anyone be sure how the sample got tampered with and that is the whole point. It got tampered with.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71 ✭✭oldbie


    No one knows what her reason for tampering with the sample was (if in fact she wasn't stitched up by the Janet Evans campaign). She could have make a huge error of judgement and smoked a doobie the night before which would have gotten her a ban. Who knows! There's no proof she ever took a performance enhancing substance.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    ^ But has she ever offered any kind of explanation as to the dodgy sample?? I don't recall her offering any kind of defence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭StephenHendry


    she still our greatest olympian, her feat of 3 gold and 1 bronze probably won't be beaten or matched by any of our olypians if ever. obviously through her ban imposed by FINA, the issue of drug use, her sample being tampered, her boyfriends association with drug taking means she will never get full recognition or credit for her achievements. she has no doubt played a big part in her own downfall and success , whichever way you look at it. im just gutted i never got to see any of her races live at atlanta :D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70 ✭✭Wishful Thinking


    Just went onto YouTube & cannot find any clips of her at the 1996 Olympics

    Totally airbrushed from history?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    ^ But has she ever offered any kind of explanation as to the dodgy sample?? I don't recall her offering any kind of defence.
    Unlike certain other jurisdictions, an "accused person" is not obliged to offer any kind of defence; this is where real life is different to the telly. It is up to the accusers / prosecuters to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that a defendant is guilty.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,668 ✭✭✭Royal Legend


    Personally, there was no proof that she cheated, she is in my eyes our greatest Olympian.

    Her main accuser was a swimmer in the USA, not exactly clean are they either.
    Its amazing that more is not made of Carl Lewis 4 golds, are they not tainted? or Flo Jo for that matter, greatest sprinter ever, tested more than most, fastest woman of all time, yet her memory is tainted by some, a) because she was so fast and b) because she died from a heart attack a few years later.
    Its easy to cast aspertions on someones character, but without proof it is libelous IMO.
    I was watching iTalk sport on Setanta a few weeks ago when Coughlan was on it with Kimmage and Kimmage got thick with Coughlan about his opinion of drugs in Athletics, Kimmage as much as said that Bolt could not possibly do what he does legally. Eamonn put Kimmage in his place, that he had a chip on his shoulder about drug taking in sport


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Motorist


    Michelle Smith's legacy was mentioned again today by John Leonard, executive director of the World Swimming Coaches Association in relation to "dramatic" improvements in Ye Shiwen's times. He said "the 16-year-old's performance was "suspicious" and said it brought back "a lot of awful memories" of the Irish swimmer Michelle Smith's race in the same event at the Atlanta Olympics in 1996. Smith, now Michelle de Bruin, was banned for four years in 1998 after testing positive for an anabolic steroid."

    What an ongoing, international embarrassment she is.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 363 ✭✭FishBowel


    She's now a successful barrister making more money than anyone on this thread. Doubt she cares about what that guy said today?


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Motorist wrote: »
    Michelle Smith's legacy was mentioned again today by John Leonard, executive director of the World Swimming Coaches Association in relation to "dramatic" improvements in Ye Shiwen's times. He said "the 16-year-old's performance was "suspicious" and said it brought back "a lot of awful memories" of the Irish swimmer Michelle Smith's race in the same event at the Atlanta Olympics in 1996. Smith, now Michelle de Bruin, was banned for four years in 1998 after testing positive for an anabolic steroid."

    What an ongoing, international embarrassment she is.

    Except for the fact she wasn't tested positive for an anabolic steroid.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭ZeitgeistGlee


    FishBowel wrote: »
    She's now a successful barrister making more money than anyone on this thread. Doubt she cares about what that guy said today?

    Regardless of how much money a person makes, I doubt attacks on the validity of their personal achievements are ever just brushed off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭PK2008


    Karsini wrote: »
    Except for the fact she wasn't tested positive for an anabolic steroid.

    Yeh, I thought it was whiskey in the sample?

    In any case she was deffo on something, even Aquaman raised an eyebrow at that one


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭foxyboxer


    Motorist wrote: »
    Michelle Smith's legacy was mentioned again today by John Leonard, executive director of the World Swimming Coaches Association in relation to "dramatic" improvements in Ye Shiwen's times. He said "the 16-year-old's performance was "suspicious" and said it brought back "a lot of awful memories" of the Irish swimmer Michelle Smith's race in the same event at the Atlanta Olympics in 1996. Smith, now Michelle de Bruin, was banned for four years in 1998 after testing positive for an anabolic steroid."

    What an ongoing, international embarrassment she is.

    Remember how Michael Johnson was blowing away all comers in 1996?
    Perhaps this may be the case with Shiwen's performance. Gold medallist until proven guilty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,880 ✭✭✭Raphael


    The ban was for tampering, but at the appeal it came out that there were traces of steroids in the samples.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Motorist


    FishBowel wrote: »
    She's now a successful barrister making more money than anyone on this thread. Doubt she cares about what that guy said today?

    His comments were carried on a lot of news bulletins today, and mentioned across the UK and Ireland. On the web his comments were carried on around 500 news websites. Not that the "successful barrister" cares though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Red21


    Fair play to Gary O' Toole he gave another dig at de bruin tonight when he and Bill were discussing the drug rumours


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Sky King


    Wow it all makes sense now, here was me thinking all along that she got an on the spot whiskey test and tried to ruin it by urinating in it..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,440 ✭✭✭The Aussie


    Michelle Michael took so many drugs She He would even fail the Grope test.
    PK2008 wrote: »
    In any case she was deffo on something, even Aquaman raised an eyebrow at that one

    Class :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Red21


    A large chunk of the medals in female swimming at any olympics are taken by teenagers, are people so thick that they actually believe that a woman who reached her peak at 17 and remained at that same level for 6/7 years all of a sudden went from being a complete outsider to world domination by natural methods.
    She still to this day has given no explination for her massive jump in perfromance.
    When I say de bruin was a complete outsider I mean that she wouldn't have even been considered an international swimmer oin the states until she took the drugs that changed her into a man.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭Sea Filly


    http://www.pendlayforum.com/showthread.php?t=6611

    "An Interview with Angel Heredia - Former PED Dealer to Athletes and Olympians"

    read that, cheapens sport but what can ye do


    ^^^^^^^

    Great read.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,562 ✭✭✭leeroybrown


    foxyboxer wrote: »
    Remember how Michael Johnson was blowing away all comers in 1996?
    Perhaps this may be the case with Shiwen's performance. Gold medallist until proven guilty.
    Michael Johnson was an exceptional athlete at the peak of his career who was already dominant in his events. He was a consistent gold medal winner across almost ten years of major championships and he incrementally improved his performance over that career. Shinwen and Michelle Smith both turned up from nowhere to put enormous performances. Michelle Smith in particular went from nowhere to champion late in her career when most swimmers peak quite early. Smith's conviction for deliberate sample tampering is as good as a positive test in my view. Shinwen is a gold medalist until proven otherwise but the numbers are incredibly suspect and it's not as if the Chinese swimming team don't have a recent high profile record of widespread doping in their juniors.

    Personally I think that there is still widespread doping and the science/tech involved is incredibly sophisticated and miles ahead of the testers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,562 ✭✭✭leeroybrown


    http://www.pendlayforum.com/showthread.php?t=6611

    "An Interview with Angel Heredia - Former PED Dealer to Athletes and Olympians"

    read that, cheapens sport but what can ye do
    Excellent read. Thanks for posting it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    ... Michelle Smith in particular went from nowhere to champion late in her career when most swimmers peak quite early. ...
    Another revisionist. Clearly you haven't taken the time to read the thread or familiarise with the lead up to the Olympics. But why should truth or actual recorded events get in the way of yet another stupid post?
    ... Smith's conviction for deliberate sample tampering is as good as a positive test in my view. ....
    Her conviction? She faced criminal charges, was found guilty and imprisoned? She was actually convicted of a crime? Fcuk me man, that's taking revisionism a bit too far even for this thread. An avid Sun / Sindo reader no doubt? Your female colleague who displays the 12-year old's journalistic skills on the front page of the Sindo writes slightly better comedy than you but your post so far rates highly as fiction.

    BTW who do you think gives a shyte about your distorted view of what happened and your crappy and rather creepy attempt at re-aligning reality to match your crazy views?
    ... Personally I think that there is still widespread doping and the science/tech involved is incredibly sophisticated and miles ahead of the testers.
    And your deep personal insights and technical knowledge about doping in sport were formed by (delete as appropriate):
    1. Years of smoking hash
    2. A brain exchange with a frog
    3. Watching re-runs of the Jeremy Kyle Show
    4. Phoning Irish Psychics Live?
    Do you know what day it is? You need to focus on the small realities first and then work up to the really important stuff like the name of the bird with her assets on display in Ireland's brightest daily (Hint: Start at page 2 and work forwards from there, adding 1 to the page number until you find her. If you get to page 4 and haven't found her, reverse the process (that means go backwards)).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    I think the thing that annoyed us most as a country was that we defended her to the hilt against the Wicked Witch of the West Janet Evans who dared to question our girl Michelle and her/our achievements. Most of the country (not all) were blinded by the success and refused to believe anything different.

    She let us down and made us look stupid. She will never be forgiven for it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    I think the thing that annoyed us most as a country was that we defended her to the hilt against the Wicked Witch of the West Janet Evans who dared to question our girl Michelle and her/our achievements. ...
    I didn't appoint you as my spokesman so less of the "we" stuff please.
    ... Most of the country (not all) were blinded by the success and refused to believe anything different.

    She let us down and made us look stupid. She will never be forgiven for it.
    Most of the posters in the "anti-Michelle" lynch-mob don't need anyone's help looking stupid, that's something they've managed here all on their own.

    With no evidence and a total disregard for long-established facts, they have once again rushed to condemnation like the good little mob-rule adherents they are.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Red21


    mathepac wrote: »
    Another revisionist. Clearly you haven't taken the time to read the thread or familiarise with the lead up to the Olympics. But why should truth or actual recorded events get in the way of yet another stupid post?.
    What has this thread got to do with the actual truth?
    When you say the "the lead up to olympics " what do you actually mean? because the 5/6 months before the 96' games has nothing to do with the truth, where as the 7/8 years before the 96' games has everything to do with the truth.
    The truth is that in the history of sport, from the puck fada to olympic handball, Michelle De Bruin is known the world over as greatest cheat of all time, because her improvement are so unbelieveable she is up there with Ben Johnson but unlike johnson, she has become a demonstration of the power of drugs.
    No other single person has ruined sport more than de briun and this is known the world over.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭Sea Filly


    mathepac wrote: »
    With no evidence and a total disregard for long-established facts

    Tell us these facts. Educate us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,133 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    I love the "never failed a drugs test" argument some people are using. Marion Jones never failed a drugs test. Mark McGwire never failed a drugs test. Bjarne Riis never failed a drugs test. Wang Junxia and Lance Armstrong never failed a drugs test.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Red21



    She let us down and made us look stupid. She will never be forgiven for it.
    The thing is I think I could forgive her, mainly because her story was unbeliveable to begin with. If she held a press conferance and came clean, I reckon it would go a long way, after all she was only a kid when she first decided to go went down this route.
    People might say i'm nieve, but I also believe that she might come clean about the whole thing some day, it must be understood that inatially she was lead to believe that she could get away with this yet at every turn things went against her. I'm sure that over the last few years shes had some kinda notion that the whole thing was somewhat settled and she had her medals in her back pocket, yet what has happened this year with her not allowed carry the torch, it must have been an awful kick in the ass, what happen this year has really turned her medals to dust and it may begin to dawn on her that for her familys sack she should just tell the truth as she will never be ahead of this thing.
    Of course it may not be as easy for those who believe her to forgive.


This discussion has been closed.
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