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pickarooney · 25-06-2012 09:45AM

Club game at the weekend: Blue fly-half hoofs a long kick out of defence, close to the opposition 22. Blue winger and lock chase after it. Yellow full-back, all on his own, misses the catch and gathers at the second attempt. Blue winger snaffles him up, puts him down while staying on his feet and goes to claim the ball. Yellow 15 is still on his own and doesn't release and when the blue lock and winger try to rip it from him he lies on it.

Grounds for a penalty try and/or yellow card?

To put it into perspective, it was +30 degrees, blue 4 and 14 were fresh subs and nobody was able/bothered to leg it after them in time to assist the yellow full back.

daveharnett · 25-06-2012 10:04AM

pickarooney wrote: »

Club game at the weekend: Blue fly-half hoofs a long kick out of defence, close to the opposition 22. Blue winger and lock chase after it. Yellow full-back, all on his own, misses the catch and gathers at the second attempt. Blue winger snaffles him up, puts him down while staying on his feet and goes to claim the ball. Yellow 15 is still on his own and doesn't release and when the blue lock and winger try to rip it from him he lies on it.

Grounds for a penalty try and/or yellow card?

To put it into perspective, it was +30 degrees, blue 4 and 14 were fresh subs and nobody was able/bothered to leg it after them in time to assist the yellow full back.

From your description, it sounds like it would have been a nailed on certain try if blue winger releases immediately. Sounds like a penalty try to me.
If the outcome was more doubtful I'd look at a yellow card instead, but I wouldn't do both unless the winger had already received a personal warning (or team warning for not releasing). I'd generally reserve PT+YC for dangerous play preventing a try.

castie · 25-06-2012 10:44AM

pickarooney wrote: »

Club game at the weekend: Blue fly-half hoofs a long kick out of defence, close to the opposition 22. Blue winger and lock chase after it. Yellow full-back, all on his own, misses the catch and gathers at the second attempt. Blue winger snaffles him up, puts him down while staying on his feet and goes to claim the ball. Yellow 15 is still on his own and doesn't release and when the blue lock and winger try to rip it from him he lies on it.

Grounds for a penalty try and/or yellow card?

To put it into perspective, it was +30 degrees, blue 4 and 14 were fresh subs and nobody was able/bothered to leg it after them in time to assist the yellow full back.

Bolded above makes me belive he didnt actually release the man?

Assuming he did release the man. Penalty try can only be awarded when it is likely a try would of been scored. So no I wouldnt think you can give that otherwise a high tackle on a breakaway can be a penalty try.

As for the yellow it would be very harsh as a ref needs to be consistent and theres no difference between what youve described and someone not releasing in any other scenario.

pickarooney · 25-06-2012 10:47AM

Blue winger did the old 'Mexican Wave' release before going for the ball. Ref acknowledged it when the yellow 15 protested.

Shelflife · 25-06-2012 10:50AM

I'd give a PT given what we've been told. Good logic behind the YC and PT only for dangerous play.

Castie id have no problem giving a PT for a breakaway being nailed with a high tackle even on the half way line.

castie · 25-06-2012 12:05PM

Shelflife wrote: »

I'd give a PT given what we've been told. Good logic behind the YC and PT only for dangerous play.

Castie id have no problem giving a PT for a breakaway being nailed with a high tackle even on the half way line.

Cant give a PT when they were never in possession of the ball really.
Player on the deck could get up and tackle the player thats just ripped it or he could of knocked it on and so on...

daveharnett · 25-06-2012 01:55PM

castie wrote: »

Cant give a PT when they were never in possession of the ball really.
Player on the deck could get up and tackle the player thats just ripped it or he could of knocked it on and so on...

Sure, but a meteor could strike the attacker as he crossed the line too. You can never be certain of a "what if" scenario. The standard in law is "probable" which means a probability of greater than 50% that the try would have been scored.

To look at it from another perspective: the offending player seemed to think that the chances of preventing the try legally were less than the chances of the ref awarding the PT (any lesser sanction is a net win for his team). In that situation, I think the onus is on the ref to prove him wrong, and (implicitly) encourage him to take his chances playing within the law next time.

locum-motion · 25-06-2012 06:58PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Blue winger did the old 'Mexican Wave' release before going for the ball. Ref acknowledged it when the yellow 15 protested.

Given that addendum to the original query, it becomes a 2 on 1, where the 1 is on the ground and out of the game.
As long as no other yellows were in a position to prevent a try (and from what you said, they weren't), then the probablility that a try would have been scored is very high, and so, yes, IMO, a PT would have been warranted.

Swiwi · 25-06-2012 11:49PM

Shelflife wrote: »

Gears " hand off " on Earls.

For me it was a red card, extremely dangerous.

Am I over reacting?

Yes you are. There was no malice in it. I doubt Earls will try and tackle like that again.

Podge_irl · 26-06-2012 04:35AM

Lads, I've been meaning to ask Justin but haven't seen him over the last week or so. I'm interested in taking up reffing but have absolutely no idea how to go about it. I know Justin has mentioned a course that the LB do but do any of you know the best way to get involved? I'm not a member of any club or anything at the moment, is that an issue?

Shelflife · 26-06-2012 09:22AM

Swiwi wrote: »

Shelflife wrote: »

Gears " hand off " on Earls.

For me it was a red card, extremely dangerous.

Am I over reacting?

Yes you are. There was no malice in it. I doubt Earls will try and tackle like that again.

How can you say there was no malice in it when he intentionally threw a forearm/ elbow into his face?

Just because it's a poor tackling technique doesn't give you the right to smash his face in.

locum-motion · 26-06-2012 11:35AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Lads, I've been meaning to ask Justin but haven't seen him over the last week or so. I'm interested in taking up reffing but have absolutely no idea how to go about it. I know Justin has mentioned a course that the LB do but do any of you know the best way to get involved? I'm not a member of any club or anything at the moment, is that an issue?

Have a look at this page.

castie · 26-06-2012 11:47AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Lads, I've been meaning to ask Justin but haven't seen him over the last week or so. I'm interested in taking up reffing but have absolutely no idea how to go about it. I know Justin has mentioned a course that the LB do but do any of you know the best way to get involved? I'm not a member of any club or anything at the moment, is that an issue?

Do the foundation course and you can get setup to get started from that meeting if I remember correctly.

Downtime · 26-06-2012 12:01PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Lads, I've been meaning to ask Justin but haven't seen him over the last week or so. I'm interested in taking up reffing but have absolutely no idea how to go about it. I know Justin has mentioned a course that the LB do but do any of you know the best way to get involved? I'm not a member of any club or anything at the moment, is that an issue?

Everything you need to know is here - http://www.arlb.ie/?page_id=32 The foundation course is on August 19th in St Mary's College RFC. On the page above find your local rep and he can put you in contact with the relevant person to get you on the list for the course.

daveharnett · 26-06-2012 03:47PM

Did I miss a discussion on these?
http://www.irblaws.com/2012/

The headline is that the 'pause' is gone. The sequence will now be "Touch, Pause, Set" where "Set" will immediately become a one-syllable replacement for "Engage". "Ready, Steady, Go" would probably be more honest.

The other significant change has been aired here already: 5 second use-it-or-lose-it when the ball becomes available at the back of a ruck.

Most of the rest are pretty minor: the quick throw in can be taken in front of where the ball entered touch, no timewasting during conversions (by delaying the arrival of the tee), GPS trackers are allowed, tights are allowed for ladies, an illegal addidas boot is now legal (:rolleyes:).

ScareGilly · 26-06-2012 04:55PM

Shelflife wrote: »

How can you say there was no malice in it when he intentionally threw a forearm/ elbow into his face?

Just because it's a poor tackling technique doesn't give you the right to smash his face in.

Just wondering how long into the match does this happen?

Shelflife · 26-06-2012 06:44PM

ScareGilly wrote: »

Shelflife wrote: »

How can you say there was no malice in it when he intentionally threw a forearm/ elbow into his face?

Just because it's a poor tackling technique doesn't give you the right to smash his face in.

Just wondering how long into the match does this happen?

Round about the 60min mark I think . In real time it looks as if earls made a balls of the tackle , but but another angle you can see gear nail him with a firearm/ elbow. Earls had to leave the field to get patched up.

rje66 · 26-06-2012 10:20PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Lads, I've been meaning to ask Justin but haven't seen him over the last week or so. I'm interested in taking up reffing but have absolutely no idea how to go about it. I know Justin has mentioned a course that the LB do but do any of you know the best way to get involved? I'm not a member of any club or anything at the moment, is that an issue?

where in ireland are you based? just asking, as if outside leinster the ARLB info is leinster specific. if in leinster what area you in? may b able to point you in right direction.

Trippie · 26-06-2012 10:25PM

QQ, playing a tournament here in Colombia over the weekend, we had a monster clearance kick, myself and another guy chased it up, bounced awkwardly for the full back and by the time he secured the ball close to the touch line we were bearing down on him, he went to kick the ball clear as my mate tackled him, the ball spilled forward in the air over the touchline without touching the ground. I picked it up in touch right away and took a quick lineout to the 3rd guy who was chasing with us, he ran it in under the posts but was called back, the touch judge said it was knocked forward and ref awarded a scrum? correct decision or not?

rje66 · 27-06-2012 08:49AM

correct decision
,knock on(first offense) then ball went dead. no advantage once ball s dead.
back to first offense.

think this is changing next season though

daveharnett · 27-06-2012 10:30AM

rje66 wrote: »

correct decision
,knock on(first offense) then ball went dead. no advantage once ball s dead.
back to first offense.

think this is changing next season though

Yep. From September (northern hemisphere) or January (southern hemisphere), you will be able to elect to take the lineout (quick or conventional) rather than the scrum in this situation. Until then, the decision you received remains the correct one.

29-06-2012 09:04AM

ScareGilly wrote: »

Just wondering how long into the match does this happen?

Shelflife wrote: »

Round about the 60min mark I think . In real time it looks as if earls made a balls of the tackle , but but another angle you can see gear nail him with a firearm/ elbow. Earls had to leave the field to get patched up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBk6PjwsILA

Still unsure what the problem is with this. Thought it was just physicality, Earls put himself in a terrible position coming in to tackle, trying to cover the ball too, and as a result, he was really high.

ScareGilly · 29-06-2012 11:45AM

I don't see the problem with it... Gear just 'bounced' him..

Shelflife · 29-06-2012 01:48PM

ScareGilly wrote: »

I don't see the problem with it... Gear just 'bounced' him..

Whats a "bounce" ?

I see a forearm to the head, if thats now legal we are in for a lot of broken noses next season, you cant attack a persons head in that manner its not a hand off.

ScareGilly · 29-06-2012 02:37PM

Boshed him?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be2fMySrKb8

Exact same as that in my book, just Earl's poor attempt of a tackle...

29-06-2012 03:27PM

yup, he just got done. Tackle lower in future.

daveharnett · 29-06-2012 04:09PM

ScareGilly wrote: »

Boshed him?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be2fMySrKb8

Exact same as that in my book, just Earl's poor attempt of a tackle...

You could argue that the actions (and even intent) of both ball carriers are similar, but the fact is that one incident was dangerous and one was not. That being the case, it warrants a look from a citing officer, who is better placed than us to decide on whether there might be a case to answer.

daveharnett · 29-06-2012 04:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

yup, he just got done. Tackle lower in future.

I'm assuming that his intent in going in upright was to wrap and prevent the offload? While he's not the most technical by any means, I'd have said that Earls is perfectly capable of making a proper tackle.

ScareGilly · 29-06-2012 06:16PM

daveharnett wrote: »

You could argue that the actions (and even intent) of both ball carriers are similar, but the fact is that one incident was dangerous and one was not. That being the case, it warrants a look from a citing officer, who is better placed than us to decide on whether there might be a case to answer.

I'd be the complete opposite and say to me, it's not dangerous at all, it's completely Earls' fault, had his head in the wrong place...

Shelflife · 29-06-2012 06:21PM

ScareGilly wrote: »

I'd be the complete opposite and say to me, it's not dangerous at all, it's completely Earls' fault, had his head in the wrong place...

Aaah will you stop scaregilly, If a player wants to wrap you to prevent an off load, even if its not a technically good tackle, you cant just smash your forearm into a players face, its extremely dangerous.

Red card for me all day long!

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