New Tesla model S going onsale in the USA today

the culture of deference · 23-06-2012 5:11pm #1

Tesla’s the Model S electric sedan.

Model S is a full-sized five-passenger four-door sportback with a lightweight aluminum body. It’s available in four trim levels with three battery capacities — 40, 60 and 85kWh for a range of 160, 230 and 320 miles, respectively.

A 350hp AC induction motor drives the rear wheels with a 130mph top speed and 4.4-second 0-60mph time (on the performance model). The lithium-ion batteries are liquid cooled and packaged in a 4-inch thick slab that covers the entire floor pan of the car for a low center of gravity and a near 50-50 weight distribution.

A 10kW on-board charger is standard, with a second 10kW charger available as an option.

An active air suspension is available as an option — wheels choices are 19 or 21-inches.

http://phys.org/news/2012-06-tesla-electric-sedans-road.html

eth0 · 23-06-2012 5:14pm

I prefer the roadster. Shame they had to put that thing out of production so they could make this rather boring yoke

CianRyan · 23-06-2012 5:54pm

I'd hardly call it boring, it goes faster than most cars on the road, in a straight line at least.
Looks lovely.

bazz26 · 23-06-2012 6:57pm

Very Jaguar XF looking. I like it.

maddragon · 23-06-2012 7:02pm

Fabulous machine and even has a jump seat option for the back to make it a 7 seater. I would love one.

Guy:Incognito · 23-06-2012 7:07pm

maddragon wrote: »

Fabulous machine and even has a jump seat option for the back to make it a 7 seater. I would love one.

Is the boot huge? Estates normally only have that option. I would have thought even a 7 year old would be hitting their head on the hatch glass.

the culture of deference · 23-06-2012 7:34pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Is the boot huge? Estates normally only have that option. I would have thought even a 7 year old would be hitting their head on the hatch glass.

Front boot

Rear boot

Guy:Incognito · 23-06-2012 7:45pm

Ah ,looks more laid out like an estate . I thought it was a standard ish hatch.

Woudlnt fancy sitting in the front one though :-)

Atlantic Dawn · 23-06-2012 7:49pm

It's almost $50k for the cheapest model, the Prius costs $24k, the $26k difference will buy a lot of fuel and you can drive wherever you want. It needs to come closer to $30k for it to be a success. It is nice looking though and the range is good, we are probably 5 years away from genuine electric alternatives.

MuppetCheck · 23-06-2012 7:51pm

eth0 wrote: »

I prefer the roadster. Shame they had to put that thing out of production so they could make this rather boring yoke

Yeah, they may as well close up shop and go out of business altogether sure.

At least this gives them a long term hope and should hopefully pave the way for more models.

320 mile range – if thats true it looks like a nice, usable option if you can afford it.

Guy:Incognito · 23-06-2012 8:03pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It's almost $50k for the cheapest model, the Prius costs $24k, the $26k difference will buy a lot of fuel and you can drive wherever you want. It needs to come closer to $30k for it to be a success. It is nice looking though and the range is good, we are probably 5 years away from genuine electric alternatives.

Yeah but you wont be driving a Prius. Thats worth 26 grand of anyones money

23-06-2012 10:51pm

I love it and I'd have one if I could afford it, imagine the price here after import tax and VAT at 23 %. Lucky yanks get everything so much cheaper than we do!

You need about 30kw/hrs for 100 miles at about 65 mph. So about 250 miles. or 200 if you drive it hard or 150 if you drive highly illegally.

Imagine fast charging it using current fast chargers ? 30 minutes currently for 20 kw/hrs do the maths, even though I don't think you can fast DC charge it ? It has an on board 10kw charger, but tink of the Renault Zoe with it's 44 kw on board charger. Which car would I buy ? well would have to be Zoe, I mean faster charging is what actually matters most rather than carry a big expensive battery for the occasional long trip and it take ages to recharge with even current fast chargers.

23-06-2012 10:58pm

OSI wrote: »

Tesla has option for twin chargers, which give it a range of 62 miles per hour of charging.

The Leaf can do that in30 mins.

Zoe a little more.

By the way that's for a real range of 60-65 miles. No way in hell the Tesla can match the Leaf in miles per kw/hr but I still love the tesla!!!

I8A4RE · 24-06-2012 12:14am

One suggestion, Fisker Karma. Expensive yes but better than the alternatives.

24-06-2012 6:00am

I8A4RE wrote: »

One suggestion, Fisker Karma. Expensive yes but better than the alternatives.

The Fisker Karma is half as efficient as the leaf, or less, same with the Tesla Model S.

The Renault Zoe is far more efficient than the tesla or Fisker, it's even more efficient than the leaf.

Sure the tesla and Fisker would be much more fun but and ice in an electric car ? no thanks.

As good as the Tesla is, If I had a choice then probably the Leaf or Zoe would be the ev I would buy because they can charge much faster. A 30 min fast charge can get Zoe or Leaf 100 miles in 30 mins on a fast charger.

The Fisker takes 7 hours or so, and it can only travel half the distance of the Leaf and less than half of the Zoe, and the tesla takes 2 hours to get half the range of the Leaf or Zoe.

Zoe comes with a standard 44 kw charger, making it or the Leaf far more useful than the Fisker or Tesla.

Sure the tesla has a lot more range on a full charge with the biggest battery option, but really, would you pay 4 times the Leaf for a car that takes so long to charge ? If you run out of juice it will take a very long time to charge ?

While Zoe or,leaf is ready for 65-100 miles in 30 mins from 0. Not bad at all.

24-06-2012 3:53pm

OSI wrote: »

Tesla has option for twin chargers, which give it a range of 62 miles per hour of charging.

Not likely as it's not as efficient as a Leaf or the Zoe and they have much faster charging options.

Leaf= 50kw 30 mins 0-80% for 60-100 miles

Zoe=44Kw 30 mins 0-100 % up to 130 miles range. (no real test results yet)

Tesla 20kw charger option = 2 hrs for full charge for the 40 kw pack and 4 hrs for the 85kw/hr battery

I'm sure soon enough there will be a car that can take 100-150 KW of power. for around 5 min charging, once we have a lot more fast chargers battery size won't be as much of an issue.

ShadowHearth · 24-06-2012 5:56pm

at 50$ it looks like a bargain. Looks sexy, has performance, not bad range ( would still love to see real figure ).

i checked now. just to do work trips this week i managed to clock in only 65miles. electric car would be perfect for me

24-06-2012 9:25pm

OSI wrote: »

What?

It states so on several places on their own website.

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/charging#/highpower

What's more, it seems I missed something else on their site.

That's 300 miles of range per hour of charging. Makes a Leaf or a Zoe look a tad silly at that rate.

Not 300 miles per hour that's for sure.

rated the Leaf combined fuel economy equivalent at 99 MPGe (2.4 L/100 km), with an equivalent 106 mpg-US (2.22 L/100 km; 127 mpg-imp) in city driving and 92 mpg-US (2.6 L/100 km; 110 mpg-imp) on highways.

TESLA

Model S model with a combined fuel economy equivalent of 89 MPGe (2.64 L/100 km), with an equivalent 88 mpg-US (2.7 L/100 km; 106 mpg-imp) in city driving and 90 mpg-US (2.6 L/100 km; 110 mpg-imp) on highways.[4]

From Tesla's website

Supercharger Access

"Tesla is building a network of Superchargers throughout North America. The Supercharger is an industrial grade, high speed charger designed to replenish 160 miles of travel in about 30 minutes when applied to the 85 kWh vehicle. This is roughly the amount of time it takes to have lunch or dinner at a highway rest stop after a three hour drive, making cross country travel an easy proposition. Includes all software and on-board hardware."

That's impressive. However they don't give any information as to the power of the "supercharger". There are fast chargers already installed in Ireland that are expensive, and probably one of the reasons there are so few is because the specifications keep changing.

When they say 160 miles in 30 mins I would be more inclined to believe 100 miles in 30 mins. As it's not going to be as efficient as the Leaf or Zoe, however it is a bigger but much more powerful car.

I have no idea why they use MPGe for electric cars, miles per kw/hrs are the only thing that's important for electric cars.

The leaf has an average consumption of 3.5 miles per kw/hr so you can calculate if it has a 22 kw/hr battery you will get 77 miles in the Leaf, where they came up with the idea of MPGe is beyond me!

If the leaf had a 40 kw/hr battery you would get an average of 140 miles, that's a real 140 miles.

RandomAccess · 24-06-2012 9:30pm

Really looking forward to seeing reviews of it, have been for ages.

The dash design is a bit of a let down for me though, perhaps it won't be as bad as I fear.

24-06-2012 9:39pm

ShadowHearth wrote: »

at 50$ it looks like a bargain. Looks sexy, has performance, not bad range ( would still love to see real figure ).

i checked now. just to do work trips this week i managed to clock in only 65miles. electric car would be perfect for me

Well the Leaf has a 3.5 mile per kw/hr so the standard Model S has a 40 kw'hr battery, if it had the same efficiency as the Leaf that would get you a real 140 miles at about 60-65 mph.

50 k U.S.D =39,830 Euro's + 23% VAT =48,990 Euro's, that's just for the 40 Kw/hr. Import duty not added. Remember most of the U.S has 0% vat or sales tax.

VRT = 0 on E.V.

That's twice the price of the Leaf which costs 25,500 Euro's or the Zoe costs 16,500 Euro's.

Would people really be willing to pay so much for the times they do more than 100 miles a day ? I wouldn't. Having said that the Model S is a really nice car and very powerful.

Chavways · 24-06-2012 9:47pm

Reminded me of this a bit looking at the picture for the first time.

http://www.luxcars.ch/wallpapers/1475_maserati_quattroporte_executive_gt_1600.jpg

Heroditas · 24-06-2012 9:53pm

Mad_Lad wrote: »

I'm sure soon enough there will be a car that can take 100-150 KW of power. for around 5 min charging, once we have a lot more fast chargers battery size won't be as much of an issue.

Installing that charging capability in a lot of areas is going to cost an absolute fortune.

RandomAccess · 24-06-2012 9:53pm

A lot of car design is pretty derivative now, many of the designers move from company to company and seem to produce very similar designs as they travel.

Some of the more creative designers such as Chris Bangle get dogs abuse when they are innovative.

24-06-2012 10:01pm

Heroditas wrote: »

Installing that charging capability in a lot of areas is going to cost an absolute fortune.

Yes the current fast dc chargers cost a lot.

The only charger that makes sense is the one in the Renault Zoe its 44 kw and all the esb do is supply the power. That greatly reduces the cost. Brilliant!

Sesshoumaru · 25-06-2012 8:28am

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes the current fast dc chargers cost a lot.

The only charger that makes sense is the one in the Renault Zoe its 44 kw and all the esb do is supply the power. That greatly reduces the cost. Brilliant!

I think he was talking about electrical substations. I'm no expert in this field, but I think a regular substation might have around a 200kw to 250kw capacity. Whether it is a Leaf drawing 50kw or a Zoe pulling 44kw, the ESB need to carefully plan local substation capacity.

A future way around this might be to have super capacitors charging overnight (relatively slowly) and then during the day the stored charge could be used to charge your car without putting load on the local substation.

ShadowHearth · 25-06-2012 8:42am

Deleted User wrote: »

Well the Leaf has a 3.5 mile per kw/hr so the standard Model S has a 40 kw'hr battery, if it had the same efficiency as the Leaf that would get you a real 140 miles at about 60-65 mph.

50 k U.S.D =39,830 Euro's + 23% VAT =48,990 Euro's, that's just for the 40 Kw/hr. Import duty not added. Remember most of the U.S has 0% vat or sales tax.

VRT = 0 on E.V.

That's twice the price of the Leaf which costs 25,500 Euro's or the Zoe costs 16,500 Euro's.

Would people really be willing to pay so much for the times they do more than 100 miles a day ? I wouldn't. Having said that the Model S is a really nice car and very powerful.

I like what leaf does, but I'm the end of the day it looks like a ****box, which was hit from the rear by a huge truck.
In tesla they did one of the most important things: they made electric car, which looks like a CAR, not a vacuum cleaner from 60s!
For 50k bucks it is a class luxury car which is cheap to run as it is electric, but when you bring it here it becomes a fecking overpriced lump of batteries!

Now the problem with charging points: they are evolving like counters did back in late 80s then 90s and 00s. They evolved very fast leaving previuos ones completely useless. The nerds/geeks will tell you the stories of spending 2-3k eu on pc and see next month twice faster pc for less!
So this is happening with these charging points, they try to put a standart in to it, but they cat as they get better and better very fast. They do standart now which everyone fallow and I'm next month or two there will be twice better chargers so all that money spent on old one is a waste!

25-06-2012 9:28am

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I think he was talking about electrical substations. I'm no expert in this field, but I think a regular substation might have around a 200kw to 250kw capacity. Whether it is a Leaf drawing 50kw or a Zoe pulling 44kw, the ESB need to carefully plan local substation capacity.

A future way around this might be to have super capacitors charging overnight (relatively slowly) and then during the day the stored charge could be used to charge your car without putting load on the local substation.

Yes supercapacitors will be used in the next generation super chargers, certainly the one Nissan is testing atm uses a super capacitor.

Old E.V batteries can be used for storage too. I think the E.S.B are looking into this. Or Nissan will offer you a new battery for less.

We need a few years for all the dust to settle.

25-06-2012 9:31am

ShadowHearth wrote: »

I like what leaf does, but I'm the end of the day it looks like a ****box, which was hit from the rear by a huge truck.
In tesla they did one of the most important things: they made electric car, which looks like a CAR, not a vacuum cleaner from 60s!
For 50k bucks it is a class luxury car which is cheap to run as it is electric, but when you bring it here it becomes a fecking overpriced lump of batteries!

Now the problem with charging points: they are evolving like counters did back in late 80s then 90s and 00s. They evolved very fast leaving previuos ones completely useless. The nerds/geeks will tell you the stories of spending 2-3k eu on pc and see next month twice faster pc for less!
So this is happening with these charging points, they try to put a standart in to it, but they cat as they get better and better very fast. They do standart now which everyone fallow and I'm next month or two there will be twice better chargers so all that money spent on old one is a waste!

I agree about the looks, but the Leaf wasn't supposed to be a high performance supercar. The Golf is boring, but better inside.

Sure e'v's are evolving fast, we need one standard for charging or I can't see it working. I think once charging is down to 5 mins or so then faster charging won't really be needed. It will be interesting to see if renaults on board chargers will get more powerful. Meaning all the E.S.B will have to do is supply the power. That makes the most sense.

Heroditas · 25-06-2012 10:33am

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I think he was talking about electrical substations. I'm no expert in this field, but I think a regular substation might have around a 200kw to 250kw capacity. Whether it is a Leaf drawing 50kw or a Zoe pulling 44kw, the ESB need to carefully plan local substation capacity.

Yep, indeed I was.
It's a massive project. Relatively large petrol stations have an MIC of around 50kVA.
Adding even 4 chargers to those sites will increase their max demand considerably.
Repeat that around the country and suddenly there's an almighty infrastructure project on ESB Networks' hands.
Someone is going to have to pay for it too! I suppose one way is to increase the cost of electricity supplied to these fast chargers, e.g. if you charge the car at home you might pay 16c per kWh but if you use a very fast charger, then it might cost 30c per kWh.

Sesshoumaru · 25-06-2012 11:43am

Heroditas wrote: »

Yep, indeed I was.
It's a massive project. Relatively large petrol stations have an MIC of around 50kVA.
Adding even 4 chargers to those sites will increase their max demand considerably.
Repeat that around the country and suddenly there's an almighty infrastructure project on ESB Networks' hands.
Someone is going to have to pay for it too! I suppose one way is to increase the cost of electricity supplied to these fast chargers, e.g. if you charge the car at home you might pay 16c per kWh but if you use a very fast charger, then it might cost 30c per kWh.

I've met with the ESB and they've given us EV owners some insight into their plans. I don't think you'll find more than one fast charger at any site for quite a while. I don't think this is a problem either as most charging is done at home anyway. There are also now more slow chargers in convenient locations, my wife and myself find we are actually starting to use these more often as they go into multistory car parks and supermarkets.

I do agree though that upgrading the grid will cost a bit. But these upgrades are being undertaken for other reasons as well, EV's are just one part.

Zubeneschamali · 25-06-2012 12:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I think once charging is down to 5 mins or so then faster charging won't really be needed.

20 KW.hrs in 5 minutes is a lot of juice! That would be what, 18 households worth of power? I hope you'll be able to start the charger from a safe distance away, behind a concrete wall!

the culture of deference · 25-06-2012 1:05pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

20 KW.hrs in 5 minutes is a lot of juice! That would be what, 18 households worth of power? I hope you'll be able to start the charger from a safe distance away, behind a concrete wall!

I for one would like a single charger for all electric cars, otherwise its gonna be mobile phone chargers.

Heroditas · 25-06-2012 2:39pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

20 KW.hrs in 5 minutes is a lot of juice! That would be what, 18 households worth of power? I hope you'll be able to start the charger from a safe distance away, behind a concrete wall!

You'd need a 240/250KVA connection to charge that fast.
A connection like that is capable of powering a medium sized supermarket!

Sesshoumaru · 25-06-2012 3:22pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

20 KW.hrs in 5 minutes is a lot of juice! That would be what, 18 households worth of power? I hope you'll be able to start the charger from a safe distance away, behind a concrete wall!

What part scares you so much?

Sesshoumaru · 25-06-2012 3:32pm

Heroditas wrote: »

You'd need a 240/250KVA connection to charge that fast.
A connection like that is capable of powering a medium sized supermarket!

The technology exists already

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-10-10/news/30284522_1_charge-electric-vehicles-nissan-leaf-electric-car

Nissan, in conjunction with Japan's Kansai Nniversity, says it has created the necessary technology to charge the batteries needed by vehicles such as the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi iMiEV in a record time of ten minutes.

However even Nissan say the technology is still about 10 years away from commercialisation. As we invest in a smarter grid, it could be possible that these chargers could respond to the load on the grid i.e. increase or decrease charging rates as the local grid allows for.

Shane732 · 25-06-2012 3:54pm

I thought this was a thread about the New Tesla Model S?

I must have missed the Leaf portion of the title.

Zubeneschamali · 25-06-2012 4:15pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

What part scares you so much?

"250 KVA capacitor" makes me think "explosion", and pumping that much power into a battery makes me think "electrical fire". That's the kind of equipment normally surrounded by a high fence with High Voltage - Risk of Electrocution signs.

I certainly would advise against sitting in a car hooked up to a 250 KVA supply.

Sesshoumaru · 25-06-2012 4:56pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

"250 KVA capacitor" makes me think "explosion", and pumping that much power into a battery makes me think "electrical fire". That's the kind of equipment normally surrounded by a high fence with High Voltage - Risk of Electrocution signs.

I certainly would advise against sitting in a car hooked up to a 250 KVA supply.

That still doesn't really explain why. I think of different things when you mention those keywords, what makes you think those outcomes are likely? Electricity is a technology we've had for quite a long time. It's not like we are lacking experience or knowledge in this area, or do you disagree?

Sesshoumaru · 25-06-2012 4:57pm

Shane732 wrote: »

I thought this was a thread about the New Tesla Model S?

I must have missed the Leaf portion of the title.

It looks beautiful and I like performance figures. I'd throw my Leaf off a cliff if it meant I could have a top spec Tesla Model S

Zubeneschamali · 27-06-2012 1:32pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Electricity is a technology we've had for quite a long time.

When was the last time you, personally, touched a piece of electrical hardware rated at 250 KVA?

Seriously, this is the sort of technology we have kept the public far away from with high fences and brightly coloured warning signs showing stick-men getting electrocuted for quite a long time.

27-06-2012 2:24pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

When was the last time you, personally, touched a piece of electrical hardware rated at 250 KVA?

Seriously, this is the sort of technology we have kept the public far away from with high fences and brightly coloured warning signs showing stick-men getting electrocuted for quite a long time.

And what exactly is your point ? electricity "can be dangerous ?" sure it can so can your car catch fire filling it up with petrol.

The chargers will be well capable of supplying the power and will fully comply to every safety regulation, so I wouldn't be worried.

How anyone could compare a charger to a sub station is beyond me!

Your battery will also have safety regulations to ensure you are not cooked.

RandomAccess · 27-06-2012 10:48pm

Collection of new videos here, the performance is very good

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/06/27/tesla-customers-drive-the-model-s-love-it/

29-06-2012 2:36pm

Check out the size of the motor in this!!!

29-06-2012 2:38pm

The Video might help!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUg-BZAR5ro

New Tesla model S going onsale in the USA today

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